Mountain Kills Mountain Biker

[Rick Etter]

"S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> rick etter wrote:
>
> > Then don't ly, and then claim you weren't....
>
> Cardinal rule of flaming: don't reveal one's own stupidity when trying to appear superior.
====================
Nope, that spelling is a tribute to another poster.... Intentional and completely reasonable in
their case...

>
> Bill "whyte lyes?" S.

 

[Rick Etter]

"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "rick etter" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:25:19 -0500, "rick etter"
<[email protected]>
> > from
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > >Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of posts you don't like.
> > >
> > >
> > > There's your annotation, asshole. Oh, did I call you a name? Too bad.
> I'm
> > not
> > > dishonest, and I don't appreciate being labeled like that.
> > > =================
> > Then don't ly, and then claim you weren't....
> >
> >
> > Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of posts you don't like. Fact, you already
> > accused him of making up the statement he claimed was in the book. Fact, you said yourself
> > you're too lazy(or stupid) to do an interlibrary loan.
> >
> > Ah, the language of the ignorant, isn't it great!
>
> Jeez, you don't get along with anybody do you, Rick?
==================
Not just with idiots and liars. Oops, I guess that's you....

Going to back up your claims yet?

Wait, I thought you tried to plonk me, but I guess you have an out though since you spelled it
plunk, eh punk?

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:51:58 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

.On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:01:17 -0500, Peter H <[email protected]> from wrote: . .>Kevan Smith wrote:
.> .>>>Sure, to a 33-year-old edition of an obscure book. .>>> .>Irrelevant comment. The book's age
has little to bear on this thread. .>The book is still available, in hardcover, softcover & audio
format. .>Check Amazon; I did not bother with other book search engines since the .>most commonly
used one gave me several hits immediately. Do a Google on .>John McPhee & get some feel for the
range of his writings; do a Google .>on David Brower & get a feel for the materials on the web
relating to .>his involvement with environmental issues . . .It's not an irrelevant comment; many
books undergo significant changes through .the years. As I pointed out before, the edition you cite
may bear no resemblance .to those published today, or, in the best case, what you say is on page 86
would .in fact be on another page. . .Further, I did all of those things you suggested. I spent an
hour of googling on .it for some reason, and I couldn't find a single page that had Brower admitting
.to making up the factoid that X percent of the world's population consumes Y .percent of its
resources.

He had more brains in his little finger than you have in your whole body. You just don't have the
horsepower to understand him.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Don]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:55:55 GMT, "Don" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> . ."rick etter" <[email protected]> wrote in message .news:UL-dnZI406Ibgq3dRVn-
> [email protected]... .> .> "Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message .>
> news:[email protected]... .> > On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:25:19 -0500,
> "rick etter"
<[email protected]>
> .> from .> > wrote: .> > .> > <snip> .> > .> > >Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions
> of .> > >posts you don't like. .> > .> > .> > There's your annotation, asshole. Oh, did I call you
> a name? Too bad. .I'm .> not .> > dishonest, and I don't appreciate being labeled like that. .> >
> ================= .> Then don't ly, and then claim you weren't.... .> .> .> Fact, you snipped out,
> without annotation portions of .> posts you don't like. .> Fact, you already accused him of making
> up the .> statement he claimed was in the book. .> Fact, you said yourself you're too .> lazy(or
> stupid) to do an interlibrary loan. .> .> Ah, the language of the ignorant, isn't it great! .
> .Jeez, you don't get along with anybody do you, Rick?
>
> He's a mountain biker, isn't he?

I have no idea, nor do I care. He has admitted to drinking moose **** regularly though. And he seems
to think he owns the national parks though he has never offered any proof of owning anything. Yet he
has the unmitigated gall to call someone else a liar........

 

[Rick Etter]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:55:55 GMT, "Don" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> . ."rick etter" <[email protected]> wrote in message .news:UL-dnZI406Ibgq3dRVn-
> [email protected]... .> .> "Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message .>
> news:[email protected]... .> > On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:25:19 -0500,
> "rick etter"
<[email protected]>
> .> from .> > wrote: .> > .> > <snip> .> > .> > >Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions
> of .> > >posts you don't like. .> > .> > .> > There's your annotation, asshole. Oh, did I call you
> a name? Too bad. .I'm .> not .> > dishonest, and I don't appreciate being labeled like that. .> >
> ================= .> Then don't ly, and then claim you weren't.... .> .> .> Fact, you snipped out,
> without annotation portions of .> posts you don't like. .> Fact, you already accused him of making
> up the .> statement he claimed was in the book. .> Fact, you said yourself you're too .> lazy(or
> stupid) to do an interlibrary loan. .> .> Ah, the language of the ignorant, isn't it great! .
> .Jeez, you don't get along with anybody do you, Rick?
>
> He's a mountain biker, isn't he?
=====================
Sorry to disappoit you and your new butt-buddy, mickey. I'm not a mountain biker. I'm a wilderness
paddler. You know, that place you've never seen but pretend to care about...

>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Don]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:51:58 -0600, Kevan Smith <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> .On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:01:17 -0500, Peter H <[email protected]> from
wrote:
> . .>Kevan Smith wrote: .> .>>>Sure, to a 33-year-old edition of an obscure book. .>>> .>Irrelevant
> comment. The book's age has little to bear on this thread. .>The book is still available, in
> hardcover, softcover & audio format. .>Check Amazon; I did not bother with other book search
> engines since the .>most commonly used one gave me several hits immediately. Do a Google on .>John
> McPhee & get some feel for the range of his writings; do a Google .>on David Brower & get a feel
> for the materials on the web relating to .>his involvement with environmental issues . . .It's not
> an irrelevant comment; many books undergo significant changes
through
> .the years. As I pointed out before, the edition you cite may bear no
resemblance
> .to those published today, or, in the best case, what you say is on page
86 would
> .in fact be on another page. . .Further, I did all of those things you suggested. I spent
> an hour of
googling on
> .it for some reason, and I couldn't find a single page that had Brower
admitting
> .to making up the factoid that X percent of the world's population
consumes Y
> .percent of its resources.
>
> He had more brains in his little finger than you have in your whole body.
You
> just don't have the horsepower to understand him.

He had more *brain(s)* (more than one) in his little finger?

 

[Rick Etter]

"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:55:55 GMT, "Don" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > . ."rick etter" <[email protected]> wrote in message .news:UL-dnZI406Ibgq3dRVn-
> > [email protected]... .> .> "Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message .>
> > news:[email protected]... .> > On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:25:19 -0500,
> > "rick etter"
> <[email protected]>
> > .> from .> > wrote: .> > .> > <snip> .> > .> > >Fact, you snipped out, without annotation
> > portions of .> > >posts you don't like. .> > .> > .> > There's your annotation, asshole. Oh, did
> > I call you a name? Too
bad.
> > .I'm .> not .> > dishonest, and I don't appreciate being labeled like that. .> >
> > ================= .> Then don't ly, and then claim you weren't.... .> .> .> Fact, you snipped
> > out, without annotation portions of .> posts you don't like. .> Fact, you already accused him of
> > making up the .> statement he claimed was in the book. .> Fact, you said yourself you're too .>
> > lazy(or stupid) to do an interlibrary loan. .> .> Ah, the language of the ignorant, isn't it
> > great! . .Jeez, you don't get along with anybody do you, Rick?
> >
> > He's a mountain biker, isn't he?
>
> I have no idea, nor do I care. He has admitted to drinking moose **** regularly though. And he
> seems to think he owns the national parks though he has never
offered
====================
Show where I've made that claim little boy. Now you on the other hand hand made claims about that,
yet you've never been able to back up your ignorance...

> any proof of owning anything. Yet he has the unmitigated gall to call someone else a liar........
==============
Yes, you are. Come on little one, back up your claims... Can't do it, can you, liar?

 

[Don]

"rick etter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "rick etter" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:25:19 -0500, "rick etter"
> <[email protected]>
> > > from
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > >Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of posts you don't like.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There's your annotation, asshole. Oh, did I call you a name? Too
bad.
> > I'm
> > > not
> > > > dishonest, and I don't appreciate being labeled like that.
> > > > =================
> > > Then don't ly, and then claim you weren't....
> > >
> > >
> > > Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of posts you don't like. Fact, you already
> > > accused him of making up the statement he claimed was in the book. Fact, you said yourself
> > > you're too lazy(or stupid) to do an interlibrary loan.
> > >
> > > Ah, the language of the ignorant, isn't it great!
> >
> > Jeez, you don't get along with anybody do you, Rick?
> ==================
> Not just with idiots and liars. Oops, I guess that's you....

There ya go getting all defensive again, Rick. Why is it that you don't get along with anybody?

 

[Rick Etter]

"Don" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

snippage...

> > > Jeez, you don't get along with anybody do you, Rick?
> > ==================
> > Not just with idiots and liars. Oops, I guess that's you....
>
> There ya go getting all defensive again, Rick. Why is it that you don't get along with anybody?
====================
What's defensive about it? I explained that you are a liar and an idiot. Pretty straight forward.

By the way, why'd you snip out the parts you can't answer? You now realize how stupid you've looked
all this time with your ignorant claims? Too late, everybody already knows...

 

[Rick Etter]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:40:31 -0500, "rick etter" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> . ."Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> .news:[email protected]... .> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:25:19 -0500,
> "rick etter"
<[email protected]>
> .from .> wrote: .> .> <snip> .> .> >Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of .>
> >posts you don't like. .> .> .> There's your annotation, asshole. Oh, did I call you a name?
> Too bad.
I'm
> .not .> dishonest, and I don't appreciate being labeled like that. .> ================= .Then
> don't ly, and then claim you weren't....
>
> Cruel. Then he'd have to stop being a mountain biker.
==================
Or a phd...

>
> .Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of .posts you don't like. .Fact, you already
> accused him of making up the .statement he claimed was in the book. .Fact, you said yourself
> you're too .lazy(or stupid) to do an interlibrary loan. . .Ah, the language of the ignorant, isn't
> it great! . . . . . .> .> .> .> -- .> [email protected] .> Get your neck massaged. .> 59 .
>
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Peter H]

Kevan Smith wrote:

>Further, I did all of those things you suggested. I spent an hour of googling on it for some
>reason, and I couldn't find a single page that had Brower admitting to making up the factoid that X
>percent of the world's population consumes Y percent of its resources.
>
>
>
You won't find it. I perhaps did not include the information that e said it was concocted by a
colleague & he [Brower] continued using it because it "felt right." Regardless, at least one other
person has taken it upon themself to locate, via Google, a reference to the precentage statement; he
confirms it says what I claim it says. The book has not undergone any revisions; the displacement of
a refernce by a minimal number of pages by different typesetting would be a minimal problem to a
serious search.

Pete H

--
A person is free only in the freedom of other persons.
W. Berry

 

[Rick Etter]

"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 20:40:31 -0500, "rick etter" <[email protected]>
from
> wrote:
>
> >Then don't ly, and then claim you weren't....
>
> I don't lie.
>
> The so-called facts you mustered are highly biased interpretations of what
I
> said. If anyone is lying, it's you.
==================
No, the facts were as I have stated. You dishonestly snipped what I said again, though. You
just can't help yourself, can you liar? Otherwise, you wouldn't have to resort to profanity to
defend youself.

True -- Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of posts you don't like. True -- Fact,
you already accused him of making up the statement he claimed was in the book. true -- Fact, you
said yourself you're too lazy(or stupid) to do an interlibrary loan.

>
>
> --
> [email protected] Accept advice. 114

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:11:35 GMT, "Don" <[email protected]> wrote:

. ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
.news:[email protected]... .> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:51:58 -0600, Kevan
Smith <[email protected]> .wrote: .> .> .On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:01:17 -0500, Peter H
<[email protected]> from .wrote: .> . .> .>Kevan Smith wrote: .> .> .> .>>>Sure, to a 33-year-old
edition of an obscure book. .> .>>> .> .>Irrelevant comment. The book's age has little to bear on
this thread. .> .>The book is still available, in hardcover, softcover & audio format. .> .>Check
Amazon; I did not bother with other book search engines since the .> .>most commonly used one gave
me several hits immediately. Do a Google on .> .>John McPhee & get some feel for the range of his
writings; do a Google .> .>on David Brower & get a feel for the materials on the web relating to .>
.>his involvement with environmental issues .> . .> . .> .It's not an irrelevant comment; many books
undergo significant changes .through .> .the years. As I pointed out before, the edition you cite
may bear no .resemblance .> .to those published today, or, in the best case, what you say is on page
.86 would .> .in fact be on another page. .> . .> .Further, I did all of those things you suggested.
I spent an hour of .googling on .> .it for some reason, and I couldn't find a single page that had
Brower .admitting .> .to making up the factoid that X percent of the world's population .consumes Y
.> .percent of its resources. .> .> He had more brains in his little finger than you have in your
whole body. .You .> just don't have the horsepower to understand him. . .He had more *brain(s)*
(more than one) in his little finger?

Learn English. "brains" = "quantity of brain". DUH!
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Rick Etter]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 00:26:17 -0500, "rick etter" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> . ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> .news:[email protected]... .> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:55:55 GMT, "Don" <one-if-by-
> [email protected]> .wrote: .> .> . .> ."rick etter" <[email protected]> wrote in message .> .news:UL-dnZI406Ibgq3dRVn-
> [email protected]... .> .> .> .> "Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message .> .>
> news:[email protected]... .> .> > On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 06:25:19 -0500,
> "rick etter" .<[email protected]> .> .> from .> .> > wrote: .> .> > .> .> > <snip> .> .> > .>
> .> > >Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of .> .> > >posts you don't like. .> .> >
> .> .> > .> .> > There's your annotation, asshole. Oh, did I call you a name? Too
bad.
> .> .I'm .> .> not .> .> > dishonest, and I don't appreciate being labeled like that. .> .> >
> ================= .> .> Then don't ly, and then claim you weren't.... .> .> .> .> .> .> Fact, you
> snipped out, without annotation portions of .> .> posts you don't like. .> .> Fact, you already
> accused him of making up the .> .> statement he claimed was in the book. .> .> Fact, you said
> yourself you're too .> .> lazy(or stupid) to do an interlibrary loan. .> .> .> .> Ah, the language
> of the ignorant, isn't it great! .> . .> .Jeez, you don't get along with anybody do you, Rick? .>
> .> He's a mountain biker, isn't he? .===================== .Sorry to disappoit you and your new
> butt-buddy, mickey. I'm not a
mountain
> .biker. I'm a wilderness paddler. You know, that place you've never seen .but pretend to care
> about...
>
> So your hobby is invading wildlife habitat, just like mountain bikers. No
wonder
> you sound like one.
==================
And your usenet posteing do what exactly to the environement around the world, eh stupid?

You're a failed excuse for a thinking person.

> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Rick Etter]

"Peter H" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kevan Smith wrote:
>
> >Further, I did all of those things you suggested. I spent an hour of
googling on
> >it for some reason, and I couldn't find a single page that had Brower
admitting
> >to making up the factoid that X percent of the world's population
consumes Y
> >percent of its resources.
> >
> >
> >
> You won't find it. I perhaps did not include the information that e said it was concocted by a
> colleague & he [Brower] continued using it because it "felt right." Regardless, at least one other
> person has taken it upon themself to locate, via Google, a reference to the precentage statement;
> he confirms it says what I claim it says. The book has not undergone any revisions; the
> displacement of a refernce by a minimal number of pages by different typesetting would be a
> minimal problem to a serious search.
====================
Yeah, you stated that right at the beginning. Like every thing else kevin does he can't keep the
posts straight, mainly because he snips them all up without any indication of what he's left out.
Here was your post....

"You may be interested to learn that one of the oldest mantras of the greenies, that the U.S. w/ 6%
of the world's population consumes 60% of the world's resources, is over 40 years old & was made up
by an associate of David Brower who then used it as one of the verbal weapons in turning the Sierra
Club into a nationally inluential group. When asked whether the associate had researched his
figures, Brower replied no, but that they "sounded right," and he saw no reason to cease using them
even if called to account."

>
> Pete H
>
> --
> A person is free only in the freedom of other persons.
> W. Berry

 

[George Clevelan]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:00:49 -0500, "rick etter"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Peter H" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> Kevan Smith wrote:
>>
>> >Further, I did all of those things you suggested. I spent an hour of
>googling on
>> >it for some reason, and I couldn't find a single page that had Brower
>admitting
>> >to making up the factoid that X percent of the world's population
>consumes Y
>> >percent of its resources.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> You won't find it. I perhaps did not include the information that e said it was concocted by a
>> colleague & he [Brower] continued using it because it "felt right." Regardless, at least one
>> other person has taken it upon themself to locate, via Google, a reference to the precentage
>> statement; he confirms it says what I claim it says. The book has not undergone any revisions;
>> the displacement of a refernce by a minimal number of pages by different typesetting would be a
>> minimal problem to a serious search.
>====================
>Yeah, you stated that right at the beginning. Like every thing else kevin does he can't keep the
>posts straight, mainly because he snips them all up without any indication of what he's left out.
>Here was your post....
>
>"You may be interested to learn that one of the oldest mantras of the greenies, that the U.S. w/ 6%
>of the world's population consumes 60% of the world's resources, is over 40 years old & was made up
>by an associate of David Brower who then used it as one of the verbal weapons in turning the Sierra
>Club into a nationally inluential group. When asked whether the associate had researched his
>figures, Brower replied no, but that they "sounded right," and he saw no reason to cease using them
>even if called to account."
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Pete H
>>
>> --
>> A person is free only in the freedom of other persons.
>> W. Berry
>>
>>
Actually as a olng time treehugger I'd never heard the 6/60 claim. Its always been 5/25. The data
that has been posted on this thread seems to support that level of consumption.

g.c.

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 05:43:13 -0500, Peter H <[email protected]> from wrote:

>You won't find it. I perhaps did not include the information that e said it was concocted by a
>colleague & he [Brower] continued using it because it "felt right." Regardless, at least one other
>person has taken it upon themself to locate, via Google, a reference to the precentage statement;
>he confirms it says what I claim it says.

Well, I searched a lot, and the statement is so common, that while I found thousands of web pages
with it and Brower both on it, I have been unable to find one where he says what you claim, which is
not to say that what you claim is false. However, you could easily ameliorate the situation by ....

--
[email protected]
Don't stress one thing more than another.
97

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:00:49 -0500, "rick etter" <[email protected]> from
wrote:

>"You may be interested to learn that one of the oldest mantras of the greenies, that the U.S. w/ 6%
>of the world's population consumes 60% of the world's resources, is over 40 years old & was made up
>by an associate of David Brower who then used it as one of the verbal weapons in turning the Sierra
>Club into a nationally inluential group. When asked whether the associate had researched his
>figures, Brower replied no, but that they "sounded right," and he saw no reason to cease using them
>even if called to account."

That's so vague. It's one reason I asked for a specific cite.

--
[email protected]
Cascades.
88

 

[Rick Etter]

"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 10:39:33 -0500, "rick etter" <[email protected]>
from
> wrote:
>
> >True -- Fact, you snipped out, without annotation portions of posts you don't like. True -- Fact,
> >you already accused him of making up the statement he claimed was in the book. true -- Fact, you
> >said yourself you're too lazy(or stupid) to do an interlibrary loan.
>
> Nope. You are wrong to all of the above.
==================
Yep. All one has to do is reread your posts. Each one of them are there, plain as day...

>
>
>
> --
> [email protected] Imagine a caterpillar moving. 31

 

[Rick Etter]

"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:00:49 -0500, "rick etter" <[email protected]>
from
> wrote:
>
> >"You may be interested to learn that one of the oldest mantras of the greenies, that the U.S. w/
> >6% of the world's population consumes 60% of the world's resources, is over 40 years old & was
> >made up by an associate of David Brower who then used it as one of the verbal weapons in turning
> >the Sierra Club into a nationally inluential group. When asked whether the associate had
> >researched his figures, Brower replied no, but that they "sounded right," and he saw no reason to
> >cease using them even if called to account."
>
> That's so vague. It's one reason I asked for a specific cite.
==========================
ROTFLMAO And he gave you one, fool. Then you claimed he was lying about what it said because *you*
are too lazy to go find the citation he gave you. What a hoot!

>
>
>
> --
> [email protected] Cascades. 88