Pay-to-play in US pro racing?



In article <[email protected]>,
Tim Lines <[email protected]> wrote:

> amit wrote:
>
> > MagillaGorilla wrote:
> >
> >>That's a very nice, well-thought out post.
> >>
> >>How's the pilot training going, Erin?
> >
> >
> > dumbass,
> >
> > i didn't figure you for member of the rbr ass-kissing squad.
> >
>
> Ooooh! Is there an actual squad for that? Do they get special uniforms
> and everything? Where can I sign up?
>
> TA-TA
> Tim

I think you get a nice hat - and not some cheesy baseball hat, either.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
Casey Kerrigan wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Arthur Dey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Any idea how many Cat 1s there are in the US?
> > Is that a trick question?
> > > There are no third rate Cat 1s.
> > OK, how about second rate.
> >
>
>
> As of 12/24/04 there were 999 Cat 1 men and 205 Cat 1 women according
> to the USCF. This number doesn't include riders who are members of
UCI
> teams since those riders have USPro licenses.

Further statistics released by the USCF
Men
400 of those 999 race
991 think cycling owes them something
200 are good, and 200 suck. (FACT)
599 just keep sending in the license fee, so they don't get downgraded
and will attempt approximately 2-5 comebacks per year, until they give
it up and "retire".
999 think they could be pro given the right break
25 could be pro
50 who might be capable of winning an NRC race (you can get lucky)
15 that could win two races. Luck doesn't strike that often.
Zero that will win an NRC race 2005, (I would love to see the stat from
2004) Casey?

Women
205 who are crazy
190 who are really crazy
60 who can ride
20 that can win a NRC race
15 who can really ride the **** out of a bike
~15% have been tapped by someone on my team
~4% I have tapped

PS yes there are third rate cat 1s.
 
On 12/30/04 10:50 AM, in article
[email protected], "Rik Van Diesel"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Casey Kerrigan wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Arthur Dey <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> Any idea how many Cat 1s there are in the US?
>>> Is that a trick question?
>>>> There are no third rate Cat 1s.
>>> OK, how about second rate.
>>>
>>
>>
>> As of 12/24/04 there were 999 Cat 1 men and 205 Cat 1 women according
>> to the USCF. This number doesn't include riders who are members of
> UCI
>> teams since those riders have USPro licenses.
>
> Further statistics released by the USCF
> Men
> 400 of those 999 race
> 991 think cycling owes them something
> 200 are good, and 200 suck. (FACT)
> 599 just keep sending in the license fee, so they don't get downgraded
> and will attempt approximately 2-5 comebacks per year, until they give
> it up and "retire".
> 999 think they could be pro given the right break
> 25 could be pro
> 50 who might be capable of winning an NRC race (you can get lucky)
> 15 that could win two races. Luck doesn't strike that often.
> Zero that will win an NRC race 2005, (I would love to see the stat from
> 2004) Casey?
>
> Women
> 205 who are crazy
> 190 who are really crazy
> 60 who can ride
> 20 that can win a NRC race
> 15 who can really ride the **** out of a bike
> ~15% have been tapped by someone on my team
> ~4% I have tapped

Do you consider you "wacking off" in the porta potty next to the start line
while they are about to "go off" (start) Tapping???


>
> PS yes there are third rate cat 1s.
>
 
It sounds like a development team set-up. Also a small-team
configuration. What's the problem? Actually, what pro team isn't a
development team? That's what it's all about: even for Lance. These
guys may be at or close to the bottom but they're probably glad to be
there. I sure would be! No reason to keep cycling a black/white
situation---well, the riders won't let it stay that way anyway and
never have. I knew amateurs who earned a living riding. I just had
never heard of such a set-up before. And, of course, these guys don't
have to pony it up themselves: but they are more involved in team
finances than other teams (supposedly) are. I wouldn't be surprised if
Lance doesn't bring sponsors to his team's table, eh? So a Subway guy
can pay the $5K or whatever---or he can get a car dealership to spring
for him, is my read on what Erin says. Do these rider-sponsorships end
up on jerseys, etc.? These riders get to ride some big events, I
gather, and who knows, some might take off to better things. That's why
this is a bettin' sport! Also, I run a wacky outdoor sport biz myself
and I look for cheap ways to sponsor people to get my name out there as
well. It's fun! --JP (the all-new outyourbackdoor.com)
 
On 30 Dec 2004 16:57:30 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>It sounds like a development team set-up. Also a small-team
>configuration. What's the problem? Actually, what pro team isn't a
>development team? That's what it's all about: even for Lance.

What do you mean by "development team"?

> I knew amateurs who earned a living riding.

Who?

JT

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<[email protected]> wrote in message
>And, of course, these guys don't
> have to pony it up themselves: but they are more involved in team
> finances than other teams (supposedly) are. I wouldn't be surprised if
> Lance doesn't bring sponsors to his team's table, eh? So a Subway guy
> can pay the $5K or whatever---or he can get a car dealership to spring
> for him, is my read on what Erin says. Do these rider-sponsorships end
> up on jerseys, etc.?

I see a big regulatory problem with a system like that. It would be tough
for each rider to negotiate ad space for a team jersey on an individual
basis: what if there are conflicts on size, location and other issues? What
if rider X brought in MADD and another rider brought in a wine sponsor?
 
Rik Van Diesel wrote:
> Further statistics released by the USCF
> <snip>

If you want to compete with Chung for the post of rbr statistician you'd
better start producing some graphs.
 
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:26:34 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I see a big regulatory problem with a system like that. It would be tough
>for each rider to negotiate ad space for a team jersey on an individual
>basis: what if there are conflicts on size, location and other issues? What
>if rider X brought in MADD and another rider brought in a wine sponsor?

You mean like the golfer that has Jenny Craig and Dunkin' Donuts for
his sponsors? I think its John Daly...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
If anyone wants to check out the details of this
arrangement, they're here:

http://www.expressracingclub.com/oldfiles/elite-team-2005-info.htm

It's a means to raise additional revenue through individual
rider sponsorships. As an 'investment' it doesn't appear to
be out of line with some of the other investments riders
make in the attempt to succeed as a pro. For example, lots
of riders invest in coaching services.

I think the biggest impact will be to highlight just how
insane the 12k dream is. If being a US domestic pro was a
reasonable thing to aspire to, no one would blink at
something like this. Erv is a great example. A guy who was
a success by any measure, got to see the world on someone
else's nickel, got to do a lot of interesting stuff with a
lot of fascinating people.

And in the end, from a strictly financial standpoint, he'd
have been much better off chucking it all and getting a job
or going to school. I know people that applied a much lesser
degree of drive and dedication to their careers than he did
to his that retired way early. Probably we all do.

Maybe this offer caused a lot of upwardly mobile Cat 1's
to consider whether it was really worth it. The sport seems
to feed on unreasonable expectations, I find it hard to
criticise an organization that is upfront about theirs.

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]
 
[email protected] wrote:
> No, it's right.

Jeffy, have you ever wondered why some people reflexively
dump abuse on you rather than engage you in an exchange
of ideas?

Bob Schwartz
[email protected]

If you respond to this I might be civil. But probably
I'll just dump abuse on you. Dumbass.
 
All ya gotta do is post civilly and try to contribute. So do you have
anything to say? One post wasted so far.

I'm never surprised that some people are morons. And I don't wonder
about their reflexes.

JT had the 'great' remark that I don't know what a development team is.
That's a post?

Let's see: I stand by my posts. Yours and JT's are out there even if
you ever want to hide from them.

Do your worst and that's all it'll ever be: your worst. Nothing to
wonder at.

--JP
 
On 2 Jan 2005 08:46:23 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
>JT had the 'great' remark that I don't know what a development team is.
>That's a post?

If a person says something that's wrong, it's useful to point that
out.

I know that writing concisely and accurately might seem strange to
you, Jeff, but not everyone places value on the sheer quantity of
words produced.

JT

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On 3 Jan 2005 17:06:31 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>A "point out" is useless unless it includes the right answer.
>Concise enough?

Nice and concise -- thanks. The correct answer was the second
definition you gave. So what's the point of my repeating that? I had
nothing to add.

Or do you want a gold star or something? OK, here you go:

http://logo.cafepress.com/2/245.152932.jpg

You're welcome.

JT


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(And people think I'm a little nutty.)

OK, if you wanted to be accurate then your first remark should've been
that my description was too broad.

It's odd and confusing to post that I don't know what a development
team is but that my second definition is correct.

Besides, my broad sense is indeed a real part of racing: it's all about
stepping stones from beginner to champion.

That's also one of the two-sided and sometimes frustrating things about
the sport: when you get good at one level of it, you're pushed (even
hassled) into moving up to where you're a beginner again. A good thing
is that everyone but literally a couple riders is given good reason to
stay humble. Maybe that's why when I used to run into Natl Team guys in
Boulder who'd returned from overseas they seemed so quiet. They can
kick anyone's butt over here; they're heroes here. But they just spent
a few months getting their own butts kicked, not finishing, etc. (Back
to my usual rambling.)
 
On 4 Jan 2005 07:07:51 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>(And people think I'm a little nutty.)
>
>OK, if you wanted to be accurate then your first remark should've been
>that my description was too broad.
>
>It's odd and confusing to post that I don't know what a development
>team is but that my second definition is correct.


Jeff, let's take this step by step with a simple example.

Imagin we are talking about fish. You say fish are animals that live
in tree and animals that climb in trees.

I say you don't know what fish are (because fish don't climb in trees
BTW).

You say, OK tell me what the problem is.

I say your second description is wrong.

Understand?

>Besides, my broad sense is indeed a real part of racing: it's all about
>stepping stones from beginner to champion.
>That's also one of the two-sided and sometimes frustrating things about
>the sport: when you get good at one level of it, you're pushed (even
>hassled) into moving up to where you're a beginner again. A good thing
>is that everyone but literally a couple riders is given good reason to
>stay humble. Maybe that's why when I used to run into Natl Team guys in
>Boulder who'd returned from overseas they seemed so quiet. They can
>kick anyone's butt over here; they're heroes here. But they just spent
>a few months getting their own butts kicked, not finishing, etc. (Back
>to my usual rambling.)

Ahh, there you go again trying to morph the definition of development
team into something that it's not. If you get sloppy with words and
shift them around too much, they lose their meaning. I won't stand
for that and will call you on it when you bring it up. Either get
used to it, or write more precisely.

JT




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On 4 Jan 2005 07:07:51 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>(And people think I'm a little nutty.)
>
>OK, if you wanted to be accurate then your first remark should've been
>that my description was too broad.
>
>It's odd and confusing to post that I don't know what a development
>team is but that my second definition is correct.


Jeff, let's take this step by step with a simple example.

Imagin we are talking about fish. You say fish are animals that live
in tree and animals that climb in trees.

I say you don't know what fish are (because fish don't climb in trees
BTW).

You say, OK tell me what the problem is.

I say your second description is wrong.

Understand?

>Besides, my broad sense is indeed a real part of racing: it's all about
>stepping stones from beginner to champion.
>That's also one of the two-sided and sometimes frustrating things about
>the sport: when you get good at one level of it, you're pushed (even
>hassled) into moving up to where you're a beginner again. A good thing
>is that everyone but literally a couple riders is given good reason to
>stay humble. Maybe that's why when I used to run into Natl Team guys in
>Boulder who'd returned from overseas they seemed so quiet. They can
>kick anyone's butt over here; they're heroes here. But they just spent
>a few months getting their own butts kicked, not finishing, etc. (Back
>to my usual rambling.)

Ahh, there you go again trying to morph the definition of development
team into something that it's not. If you get sloppy with words and
shift them around too much, they lose their meaning. I won't stand
for that and will call you on it when you bring it up. Either get
used to it, or write more precisely.

JT




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"Curtis L. Russell" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 20:26:34 -0600, "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I see a big regulatory problem with a system like that. It would be tough
> >for each rider to negotiate ad space for a team jersey on an individual
> >basis: what if there are conflicts on size, location and other issues? What
> >if rider X brought in MADD and another rider brought in a wine sponsor?
>
> You mean like the golfer that has Jenny Craig and Dunkin' Donuts for
> his sponsors? I think its John Daly...

Given that he's a big fat golfer slob, at least the space problem is mitigated.
 
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:24:33 GMT, gwhite <[email protected]> wrote:

>Given that he's a big fat golfer slob, at least the space problem is mitigated.

He has nothing on our football coach at the University of Maryland,
Ralph Fridgeon. I understand the only reason that he is paid more
money than Gary Williams, the basketball coach, is that they have
hopes of selling ad space on his jacket...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
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