Rhyll inquest starts

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 05:30:18 -0500 someone who may be Ben C
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>But if you drive on an A road at 20mph, there's a real chance you'll
>cause an accident because of someone driving into the back of you. They
>shouldn't, and it should be chalked up as their fault if they do, but it
>still might happen.

There would be nothing accidental about such a crash.

The small number of accidents on the roads is why the forthcoming
revision to the Highway Code has been ammended to exclude the "a"
word, assuming it has not been changed back while we weren't
looking.

>Yes, and another big difference between that and driving at 50mph on a
>generally good A road containing unforseen patches of black ice.

Winter in North Wales. There is noting unforseen about ice in such
conditions. Of course someone who drives around with three defective
tyres may not be up to forseeing very much.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[Rob Morley]

In article <[email protected]>, The
other view point, there is one you know...
[email protected] says...
> On 6 Jun, 22:11, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Was the driver not also a victim?
> >
> > My Troll-o-meter is flashing. Keep this up and you will join mattb and
> > keep him company.
> >
> > Martin.
>
> ohhhhhhwwwwwwww
>
> Did he set off with what happened as his intention?
>
People are calling for manslaughter charges, not murder.

 

[The other view point, there is one you know...]

On 7 Jun, 14:56, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, The
> other view point, there is one you know...
> [email protected] says...
>
>
>
> > On 6 Jun, 22:11, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> > > > Was the driver not also a victim?
>
> > > My Troll-o-meter is flashing. Keep this up and you will join mattb and
> > > keep him company.
>
> > > Martin.
>
> > ohhhhhhwwwwwwww
>
> > Did he set off with what happened as his intention?
>
> People are calling for manslaughter charges, not murder.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And charge who?

 

[Ian Smith]

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 03:54:05 -0500, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2007-06-07, _ <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > So that driver set off in a defective vehicle in weather conditions that
> > are common, drove at such speed that he killed four cyclists in two
> > collisions, having hit a wall in between.
>
> Pretty much, although it is quite likely speed wasn't a factor.

Eh?

So had he hit the ice at 5mph he would also have travelled sideways
across the road, up the bank, bounced off the wall, down the bank,
across the road and up the other bank?

Where would all that energy have come from? I've lost control of a
car on ice at sub-walking pace (on a private track as it happens) and
it stopped sliding when it came up against the verge, which was less
banked than teh one at the accident scene under discussion.

And you think the fatality rate for being hit with a car doing 5mph
is the same as that at 50mph?

Really?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[naked_draughtsman]

"David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Winter in North Wales. There is noting unforseen about ice in such
> conditions. Of course someone who drives around with three defective
> tyres may not be up to forseeing very much.

A lot is being said about the council not gritting the road despite being
warned it would be icy, but nobody seems to have mentioned the general
condition of the road - whenever I've cycled along there it has had a badly
worn surface dressing* with the previous layer of road showing through in
places. It's is terrible for cycling along (many off road tracks are
smoother) and I don't know how this affects grip for cars but the ruts tend
to hold water which I imagine allows bigger patches of ice to form.

*Where the road is sprayed with tar and a load of gravel chucked down on it.
--
peter

Cheap train tickets database
http://www.petereverett.co.uk/tickets/

Email sent to this address is generally deleted upon arrival
Visit website if you want to contact me

 

[Roger Merriman]

The other view point, there is one you know...
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On 6 Jun, 22:24, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 6 Jun, 22:08, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
big snips
> >
> > Difficult to tell, but the motorist chose to drive at a speed which
> > would ensure that if he did have an accident with unarmoured road
> > users, they would almost certainly die, so, assuming that he intended
> > the consequences of his actions, yes he set out with bad intentions.
> >
> > > What should have been the speed, who would have set it, how long would
> > > it have lasted?
> >
> > Slower; the motorist; all the journey until he arrived safely at home,
> > without killing anyone. Not difficult is it, if you really care?
> >
>
>
> Don't think somehow thats how the real world revolves, do you?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ice

if it's been a cold night drive with care ie slow enought that you can
recover from driving over ice.

black ice isn't magic it is possible to drive on roads with black ice
with out loosing control. driving at 50mph is one sure way of not.

roger

 

[Squashme]

On 7 Jun, 08:46, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6 Jun, 22:24,Squashme<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 6 Jun, 22:08, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 6 Jun, 15:34, Helen Deborah Vecht <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > "Dave Larrington" <[email protected]>typed
>
> > > > > "Mr Hughes [the coroner] also said there had been another accident near the
> > > > > scene on the same morning, and the police had been in touch with the
> > > > > council
> > > > > about conditions on the road."
>
> > > > Indeed, but AFAIK there was no serious injury as a result. Losing it at
> > > > 5mph might have resulted in unintentional dismounts, possibly with
> > > > broken bones, but fatality would be unlikely.
>
> > > > Losing it at 50mph caused multiple fatalities.
>
> > > > There is a suitable speed for these sorts of driving conditions and IMO
> > > > it ain't 50mph.
>
> > > > --
> > > > Helen D. Vecht:
>
> > > Did the road users know there was black ice?
>
> > Did the motorist attempt to find out whether there was black ice
> > before driving too fast?
>
> > > Did anyone set off with any bad intentions?
>
> > Difficult to tell, but the motorist chose to drive at a speed which
> > would ensure that if he did have an accident with unarmoured road
> > users, they would almost certainly die, so, assuming that he intended
> > the consequences of his actions, yes he set out with bad intentions.
>
> > > What should have been the speed, who would have set it, how long would
> > > it have lasted?
>
> > Slower; the motorist; all the journey until he arrived safely at home,
> > without killing anyone. Not difficult is it, if you really care?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Don't think somehow thats how the real world revolves, do you?
>

Don't confuse your world with the real world. They differ
substantially, as your social worker may have mentioned.

 

[Squashme]

On 7 Jun, 08:48, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6 Jun, 22:37, _ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:18:36 GMT, Martin Dann wrote:
> > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> > >> Did the road users know there was black ice?
>
> > >> Did anyone set off with any bad intentions?
>
> > > I cannot answer that, but the driver concerned set off with a defective
> > > vehicle. Lack of bad intentions do not absolve one of guilt.
>
> > Setting off with a defective vehicle *is* evidence of bad intention.
>
> Did he know that his vehicle was defective?
>
> Most people only check things when there is a issue.

Most people are not fit to be driving half a ton of lethal metal, but
guess what ... ?

 

[Squashme]

On 7 Jun, 15:02, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 14:56, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, The
> > other view point, there is one you know...
> > [email protected] says...
>
> > > On 6 Jun, 22:11, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> > > > > Was the driver not also a victim?
>
> > > > My Troll-o-meter is flashing. Keep this up and you will join mattb and
> > > > keep him company.
>
> > > > Martin.
>
> > > ohhhhhhwwwwwwww
>
> > > Did he set off with what happened as his intention?
>
> > People are calling for manslaughter charges, not murder.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> And charge who?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The unfortunate victim of an innocent chain reaction, maybe.
I mean aren't we all to blame in a very real sense, and yet aren't we
all just innocent victims, in yet another equally real sense. And yet
aren't ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Adam Lea]

"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> in message <[email protected]>, Ben C
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
> People from Alaska in the west all the way round the planet to Siberia in
> the east drive regularly and safely on black ice every winter.

Not all the time they don't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF1uSPxyOEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM2gLjfE_3Y&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCoxOReXlHI&mode=related&search=

 

[Adam Lea]

"Ekul Namsob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1hzbz4y.16o0v1711iz9q7N%[email protected]...
>
> Evidence I have seen (on the utterly impartial Michelin website, IIRC)
> suggests that winter tyres are of significant benefit at temperatures
> below around 6 degrees C. As far as I can tell, drivers in this country
> ought really to be fitting winter tyres for several months of the year.
>

That could lead to risk compensation i.e. "I've got winter tyres therefore I
can drive faster safely" attitude.

 

[Steve]

In article <[email protected]>, Matt B says...
anything to do with a case involving tarmac and ice.
>
> I thought it would help understand the nature of surfaces, and surface
> deformation.
>
>
Liar. Liar. Pants on fire. You hoped to provoke an off-the-cuff
response that you could quote to what you perceive as your "advantage"
in a subsequent discussion regarding the relative damage by bikes and
cars to road surfaces.

 

[The other view point, there is one you know...]

On 7 Jun, 20:39, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 08:46, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 6 Jun, 22:24,Squashme<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On 6 Jun, 22:08, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On 6 Jun, 15:34, Helen Deborah Vecht <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > "Dave Larrington" <[email protected]>typed
>
> > > > > > "Mr Hughes [the coroner] also said there had been another accident near the
> > > > > > scene on the same morning, and the police had been in touch with the
> > > > > > council
> > > > > > about conditions on the road."
>
> > > > > Indeed, but AFAIK there was no serious injury as a result. Losing it at
> > > > > 5mph might have resulted in unintentional dismounts, possibly with
> > > > > broken bones, but fatality would be unlikely.
>
> > > > > Losing it at 50mph caused multiple fatalities.
>
> > > > > There is a suitable speed for these sorts of driving conditions and IMO
> > > > > it ain't 50mph.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > Helen D. Vecht:
>
> > > > Did the road users know there was black ice?
>
> > > Did the motorist attempt to find out whether there was black ice
> > > before driving too fast?
>
> > > > Did anyone set off with any bad intentions?
>
> > > Difficult to tell, but the motorist chose to drive at a speed which
> > > would ensure that if he did have an accident with unarmoured road
> > > users, they would almost certainly die, so, assuming that he intended
> > > the consequences of his actions, yes he set out with bad intentions.
>
> > > > What should have been the speed, who would have set it, how long would
> > > > it have lasted?
>
> > > Slower; the motorist; all the journey until he arrived safely at home,
> > > without killing anyone. Not difficult is it, if you really care?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Don't think somehow thats how the real world revolves, do you?
>
> Don't confuse your world with the real world. They differ
> substantially, as your social worker may have mentioned.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Did you come up with that yourself?

 

[The other view point, there is one you know...]

On 7 Jun, 20:41, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 08:48, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 6 Jun, 22:37, _ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:18:36 GMT, Martin Dann wrote:
> > > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> > > >> Did the road users know there was black ice?
>
> > > >> Did anyone set off with any bad intentions?
>
> > > > I cannot answer that, but the driver concerned set off with a defective
> > > > vehicle. Lack of bad intentions do not absolve one of guilt.
>
> > > Setting off with a defective vehicle *is* evidence of bad intention.
>
> > Did he know that his vehicle was defective?
>
> > Most people only check things when there is a issue.
>
> Most people are not fit to be driving half a ton of lethal metal, but
> guess what ... ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

They have passed a test and there are legal requirements, whats yours
as a cyclist?

 

[The other view point, there is one you know...]

On 7 Jun, 20:45, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 15:02, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 7 Jun, 14:56, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > In article <[email protected]>, The
> > > other view point, there is one you know...
> > > [email protected] says...
>
> > > > On 6 Jun, 22:11, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> > > > > > Was the driver not also a victim?
>
> > > > > My Troll-o-meter is flashing. Keep this up and you will join mattb and
> > > > > keep him company.
>
> > > > > Martin.
>
> > > > ohhhhhhwwwwwwww
>
> > > > Did he set off with what happened as his intention?
>
> > > People are calling for manslaughter charges, not murder.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > And charge who?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The unfortunate victim of an innocent chain reaction, maybe.
> I mean aren't we all to blame in a very real sense, and yet aren't we
> all just innocent victims, in yet another equally real sense. And yet
> aren't ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, Yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz farts zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Squashme]

On 8 Jun, 07:17, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 20:41, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 7 Jun, 08:48, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 6 Jun, 22:37, _ <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:18:36 GMT, Martin Dann wrote:
> > > > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> > > > >> Did the road users know there was black ice?
>
> > > > >> Did anyone set off with any bad intentions?
>
> > > > > I cannot answer that, but the driver concerned set off with a defective
> > > > > vehicle. Lack of bad intentions do not absolve one of guilt.
>
> > > > Setting off with a defective vehicle *is* evidence of bad intention.
>
> > > Did he know that his vehicle was defective?
>
> > > Most people only check things when there is a issue.
>
> > Most people are not fit to be driving half a ton of lethal metal, but
> > guess what ... ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> They have passed a test and there are legal requirements, whats yours
> as a cyclist?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Mine's a large one, thank you for asking.

 

[Squashme]

On 8 Jun, 07:18, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 20:45, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 7 Jun, 15:02, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 7 Jun, 14:56, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > In article <[email protected]>, The
> > > > other view point, there is one you know...
> > > > [email protected] says...
>
> > > > > On 6 Jun, 22:11, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Was the driver not also a victim?
>
> > > > > > My Troll-o-meter is flashing. Keep this up and you will join mattb and
> > > > > > keep him company.
>
> > > > > > Martin.
>
> > > > > ohhhhhhwwwwwwww
>
> > > > > Did he set off with what happened as his intention?
>
> > > > People are calling for manslaughter charges, not murder.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > And charge who?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > The unfortunate victim of an innocent chain reaction, maybe.
> > I mean aren't we all to blame in a very real sense, and yet aren't we
> > all just innocent victims, in yet another equally real sense. And yet
> > aren't ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, Yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz farts zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

All those Zs. Polish, eh? I thought that English might not be your
first language.

 

[The other view point, there is one you know...]

On 8 Jun, 07:44, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 8 Jun, 07:18, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 7 Jun, 20:45, Squashme <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On 7 Jun, 15:02, "The other view point, there is one you know..."
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On 7 Jun, 14:56, Rob Morley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > In article <[email protected]>, The
> > > > > other view point, there is one you know...
> > > > > [email protected] says...
>
> > > > > > On 6 Jun, 22:11, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Was the driver not also a victim?
>
> > > > > > > My Troll-o-meter is flashing. Keep this up and you will join mattb and
> > > > > > > keep him company.
>
> > > > > > > Martin.
>
> > > > > > ohhhhhhwwwwwwww
>
> > > > > > Did he set off with what happened as his intention?
>
> > > > > People are calling for manslaughter charges, not murder.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > And charge who?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > The unfortunate victim of an innocent chain reaction, maybe.
> > > I mean aren't we all to blame in a very real sense, and yet aren't we
> > > all just innocent victims, in yet another equally real sense. And yet
> > > aren't ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, Yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz farts zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> All those Zs. Polish, eh? I thought that English might not be your
> first language.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Your too sharp for me, so i'll leave you to it.

 

[Garry from Cork]

God that was an awful accident...

Having nearly broken my hip some years ago in a fall on black ice, I
just don't cycle if it's cold enough for it. Motorists tend to be
total idiots in ANY weather which has driving risks in it. In fact a
helluva lot of motorists are nuts. How can you explain girl learner
drivers talking on their mobile phones while driving round roundabouts
or even texting??

Whatever you do to the motorist, the cyclists are not coming back.

It does none of us any good to dwell on such cases.

 

[Helen Deborah Vecht]

Garry from Cork <[email protected]>typed

> Whatever you do to the motorist, the cyclists are not coming back.

> It does none of us any good to dwell on such cases.

I disagree.

There are many points to be learned, both from a cycling and a legal
point of view.

I would hope you learned from morbidity and mortality meetings...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
Edgware.