Rhyll inquest starts



On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:17:43 -0700 someone who may be "The other
view point, there is one you know..."
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>> Most people are not fit to be driving half a ton of lethal metal, but
>> guess what ... ?

>
>They have passed a test and there are legal requirements,


Passing a test is a legal requirement for operating some forms of
motor vehicle, not that everyone who does so has passed such a test.

The legal requirements for operating a bike don't include passing a
test. If cyclists were causing a huge amount of death and injury
then there would no doubt be public clamour for a test to be
introduced, in the same way as there was a public clamour for a
driving test to be introduced.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
 
David Hansen wrote:
>
> Passing a test is a legal requirement for operating some forms of
> motor vehicle,


Yes, in some circumstances.

> not that everyone who does so has passed such a test.


And out of those that have, I wonder how many would pass it again today
with no further coaching or Highway Code revision, and how many display
the same rigour on the road as they did when taking their test.

> The legal requirements for operating a bike don't include passing a
> test. If cyclists were causing a huge amount of death and injury
> then there would no doubt be public clamour for a test to be
> introduced, in the same way as there was a public clamour for a
> driving test to be introduced.


It was introduced as a knee-jerk reaction to "public clamour", rather
than as a well considered and well researched solution to a well
defined, and well understood problem. Sounds familiar.

--
Matt B
 
in message <[email protected]>, Ben C
('[email protected]') wrote:

> But if you drive on an A road at 20mph, there's a real chance you'll
> cause an accident because of someone driving into the back of you. They
> shouldn't, and it should be chalked up as their fault if they do, but it
> still might happen.


It might. It would undoubtedly be their fault. Any reasonable thing you do
puts you at some danger from idiots. That isn't a reason for being an
idiot.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Diplomacy, American: see Intelligence, Military
 
in message <[email protected]>, Garry
from Cork ('[email protected]') wrote:

> It does none of us any good to dwell on such cases.


Look, I disagree.

We live in a culture which accepts a degree of carnage on our roads which
we simply would not accept from any other cause. Somewhere around 880,000
people are killed on the roads, worldwide, each year[1]. That's more than
died in the Rwandan Genocide, more than twice as many as have died in
Darfur. No war in the past fifty years has killed more people per year
than die on the roads, and it appears that in no year in the past fifty
years have more people died in war than on the roads.

Despite this, we're all - I include myself - very casual about the way we
drive. Drivers routinely exceed speed limits, talk on their mobile phones,
hold conversations, drink and eat while at the wheel. People drive when
suffering from illnesses (like the common cold) which affect speed and
distance perception. People drive when they've drunk alcohol. People drive
when they're tired. Many people rarely inspect their vehicles for wear or
damage - bald tyres and failed light bulbs are common sights.

We need to change culture, and it's only the shocking incidents like this
one which will motivate us to change. We need to say clearly - to
ourselves, the people around us and our politicians - that this death toll
is not acceptable, that we need to change our culture. Cultural change is
not impossible, but it needs to start somewhere - and it is shocking
incidents, like this one, which can provide the seed around which change
can form.


[1] 1999 figures: http://www.factbook.net/EGRF_Exec_Summary.htm

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'd rather live in sybar-space
 
On 8 Jun, 09:14, David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 23:17:43 -0700 someone who may be "The other
> view point, there is one you know..."
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >> Most people are not fit to be driving half a ton of lethal metal, but
> >> guess what ... ?

>
> >They have passed a test and there are legal requirements,

>
> Passing a test is a legal requirement for operating some forms of
> motor vehicle, not that everyone who does so has passed such a test.
>
> The legal requirements for operating a bike don't include passing a
> test. If cyclists were causing a huge amount of death and injury
> then there would no doubt be public clamour for a test to be
> introduced, in the same way as there was a public clamour for a
> driving test to be introduced.
>
> --
> David Hansen, Edinburgh
> I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54


I would be in favour of compulsory retest say every 5-10 years.

Or even the licences only lasts 10 years and you have to renew it.


But, but

The existing laws and rules are not being enforced so what would the
point of adding new ones?
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, Garry
> from Cork ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> It does none of us any good to dwell on such cases.

>
> Look, I disagree.


So do I.

> We live in a culture which accepts a degree of carnage on our roads which
> we simply would not accept from any other cause.


Not quite true. There is another source of a substantially greater
number of injuries, and of a similar death toll. That other source is
hardly ever seen in the press, even though substantial numbers of those
affected are children and the elderly. That other source? "The home".
There are about 3 million "home accidents" each year resulting in
hospital visits, 1 million of those are children under 15. Of the ~3000
deaths, about half of them are over 65 years old.

Ah, you might say, they all mostly self-inflicted, "falling down the
stairs while drunk", "mowing through the power lead" and the like. But
no. One of the main causes is "careless action by another person".[1]

[snipped war comparisons]

> Despite this, we're all - I include myself - very casual about the way we
> drive.


Absolutely. An attitude instilled in us by state nannying and
intervention. We expect to be "safe" in our cars. We expect cars to be
strong, and seatbelts and airbags to be effective. We expect
right-of-way to be given to us by pedestrians, as they will have been
taught this from an early age. We expect others to obey road signs,
signal, and markings. If others' lights are red, we don't expect to
have to check that the way is clear. As pedestrians we /will/ proceed
across a zebra crossing, even if it means getting killed, as we do have
legal priority.

> Drivers routinely exceed speed limits,


Mostly where its safety is acknowledged by the absence of speed cameras,
which are only used in spots where speeding is dangerous. We can drive
up to the speed limt+10%+2 as we are told that most accidents are not
caused by those who obey the speed limit.

> talk on their mobile phones, hold conversations,
> drink and eat while at the wheel.


We can talk safely on our legally sanctioned hands-free phone, the rest
must also be safe as they are not specifically banned either.

> People drive when
> suffering from illnesses (like the common cold) which affect speed and
> distance perception. People drive when they've drunk alcohol. People drive
> when they're tired.


There are no specific laws prohibiting those things - what do you expect.

> Many people rarely inspect their vehicles for wear or
> damage - bald tyres and failed light bulbs are common sights.


That's what we pay to have the MOT done for. The cars on our roads are
all mechanically sound as they undergo a mandatory test every single year.

> We need to change culture, and it's only the shocking incidents like this
> one which will motivate us to change.


We are comforted by the safe and clinical presentation of our roads,
with their clear kerbs and white markings, they look beautiful, like
racetracks. We expect every hazard to be clearly signed and pointed out
to us. We expect diesel spills to be sanded, ice to gritted and debris
to be absent, and animals and children to be correctly contained. Other
drivers have passed their test, and those who break the rules are
banned, so we needn't worry about them. Even if we are involved in an
"accident" we will be OK, because insurance is compulsory, and they'll
pick up the bills.

> We need to say clearly - to
> ourselves, the people around us and our politicians - that this death toll
> is not acceptable, that we need to change our culture.


Politicians are not in a position to do it properly though. They are
reactive to public outcries, if they think their vote might be affected,
and they may feel the need to pacify baying mobs, before the press makes
it awkward. Well considered and researched solutions will not be looked
at though, they want "solutions" which will pander to the most
vigorously expressed prejudices and preconceptions.

> Cultural change is
> not impossible, but it needs to start somewhere - and it is shocking
> incidents, like this one, which can provide the seed around which change
> can form.


The most we can expect are new signs for roads prone to icing, or new
speed limits, the banning cycle club outings in frost could be
contemplated and road gritting regulations could be examined.

[1] http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file21802.pdf

--
Matt B
 
Adam Lea <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Ekul Namsob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:1hzbz4y.16o0v1711iz9q7N%[email protected]...
> >
> > Evidence I have seen (on the utterly impartial Michelin website, IIRC)
> > suggests that winter tyres are of significant benefit at temperatures
> > below around 6 degrees C. As far as I can tell, drivers in this country
> > ought really to be fitting winter tyres for several months of the year.


> That could lead to risk compensation i.e. "I've got winter tyres therefore I
> can drive faster safely" attitude.


True. It could also lead to fewer accidents and fewer fatalities.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>
 
"Matt B" wrote ...
> David Hansen wrote:
>>
>> Passing a test is a legal requirement for operating some forms of
>> motor vehicle,

>
> Yes, in some circumstances.
>
>> not that everyone who does so has passed such a test.

>
> And out of those that have, I wonder how many would pass it again today
> with no further coaching or Highway Code revision, and how many display
> the same rigour on the road as they did when taking their test.
>
>> The legal requirements for operating a bike don't include passing a
>> test. If cyclists were causing a huge amount of death and injury
>> then there would no doubt be public clamour for a test to be
>> introduced, in the same way as there was a public clamour for a
>> driving test to be introduced.

>
> It was introduced as a knee-jerk reaction to "public clamour", rather than
> as a well considered and well researched solution to a well defined, and
> well understood problem. Sounds familiar.
>
> --
> Matt B


And like most of the laws introduced (against motorist outcry) as a response
to the danger motorists impose on the rest of us, it works as a pseudo
restraint. It has little to do with driving as practised. Very few people
never pass the test. It allows diversionary gambits like yours. Any test
worth having would fail numbers of drivers who are not fit to be in charge
of a car.

Mike Sales
 
>
> "Motorist Robert Harris, 47, from Abergele, was fined £180 with £35
> costs last August and given six points on his licence after admitting
> having defective tyres.
>
> The court heard that the defective tyres were not a factor in the
> accident.


One part of this which I don't really get is that apparently[1] it can cost
up to £2500 and 3 points for EACH TYRE, so what's with the £180+35. Surely
under the circumstances the penalty would have been on the higher side.

Unless, of course, the 3 defective tyres were only "marginally" defective
(e.g. 1.6mm tread over 74% of the width, or 1.55mm depth) and as such would
be functionally indistiguishable from a legal tyre with 1.65mm over 76% of
the width. Unfortunately the BBC doesn't do that level of detail.

[1] http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/legal/tyres.html

--

Nigel
 
The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
> They have passed a test and there are legal requirements, whats yours
> as a cyclist?


This is not the first time you have asked this here. You got a well
informed reply from many people from this group last time.

You my dear sir are a Troll. Goodbye.

kerplunck.

Martin.
 
> We need to change culture,

Only one thing will change the culture.

Strict law enforcement.

e.g. if you used your mobile phone, you lose your license etc.

anything else is not going to be effective.
 
On 9 Jun, 00:29, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
>
>
>
> > They have passed a test and there are legal requirements, whats yours
> > as a cyclist?

>
> This is not the first time you have asked this here. You got a well
> informed reply from many people from this group last time.
>
> You my dear sir are a Troll. Goodbye.
>
> kerplunck.
>
> Martin.


I like that game, and why the lovey (show acting) departure, will
people thing your better. Others have done similar but they do it and
not so dramatically.
 
"The other view point, there is one you know..."
<[email protected]>typed


> On 9 Jun, 00:29, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > They have passed a test and there are legal requirements, whats yours
> > > as a cyclist?

> >
> > This is not the first time you have asked this here. You got a well
> > informed reply from many people from this group last time.
> >
> > You my dear sir are a Troll. Goodbye.
> >
> > kerplunck.
> >
> > Martin.


> I like that game, and why the lovey (show acting) departure, will
> people thing your better. Others have done similar but they do it and
> not so dramatically.


You are correct. I am too crusty and idle to respond to posts from
certain posters, which I seldom bother to read. You should be honoured I
did this time...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
Edgware.
 
On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 22:37:43 +0100,
Nigel Randell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> "Motorist Robert Harris, 47, from Abergele, was fined £180 with £35
>> costs last August and given six points on his licence after admitting
>> having defective tyres.
>>
>> The court heard that the defective tyres were not a factor in the
>> accident.

>
> One part of this which I don't really get is that apparently[1] it can cost
> up to £2500 and 3 points for EACH TYRE, so what's with the £180+35. Surely
> under the circumstances the penalty would have been on the higher side.
>


In many arenas, where multiple offences occur due to the same reason the
penalty applies only to the most serious event - e.g. a long standing
health and safety issue that eventually leads to a serious accident will
be prosecuted for that one event and not for the thousands previously
that might each have meant a 100GBP fine.

I don't know how that stands with tyres though. If it is three separate
offences of a bald tyre then the "normal" thing would be to prosecute
for just one of them and therefore 6 points and 180GBP fine is
significantly higher than the minimum 3 points and 60GBP fine (remember
this is only an offence for having the bald tyres and there is no
comment on the driving or accident). However, if the offence is 3 bald
tyres then I would have expected the minimum penalty to be 9 points and
180GBP fine.

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
 
On 9 Jun, 08:16, Helen Deborah Vecht <[email protected]> wrote:
> "The other view point, there is one you know..."
> <[email protected]>typed
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 9 Jun, 00:29, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > The other view point, there is one you know... wrote:

>
> > > > They have passed a test and there are legal requirements, whats yours
> > > > as a cyclist?

>
> > > This is not the first time you have asked this here. You got a well
> > > informed reply from many people from this group last time.

>
> > > You my dear sir are a Troll. Goodbye.

>
> > > kerplunck.

>
> > > Martin.

> > I like that game, and why the lovey (show acting) departure, will
> > people thing your better. Others have done similar but they do it and
> > not so dramatically.

>
> You are correct. I am too crusty and idle to respond to posts from
> certain posters, which I seldom bother to read. You should be honoured I
> did this time...
>
> --
> Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
> Edgware.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I do feel honoured ;-), all postings are of value, other viewpoint
etc. I do agree that some posters can, depending on your viewpoint
really wind one up, so it might be best to ignore them.
 
"Matt B" <"matt.bourke"@nospam.london.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> in message <[email protected]>, Garry
>> from Cork ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>
>>> It does none of us any good to dwell on such cases.

>>
>> Look, I disagree.

>
> So do I.
>
>> We live in a culture which accepts a degree of carnage on our roads which
>> we simply would not accept from any other cause.

>
> Not quite true. There is another source of a substantially greater number
> of injuries, and of a similar death toll. That other source is hardly
> ever seen in the press, even though substantial numbers of those affected
> are children and the elderly. That other source? "The home".


I don't think there are that many people killed by homes outside of
earthquake zones.
 
Adam Lea wrote on 09/06/2007 15:03 +0100:
>
> I don't think there are that many people killed by homes outside of
> earthquake zones.
>
>


You've not heard of the radon problem then.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell
 
"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Adam Lea wrote on 09/06/2007 15:03 +0100:
>>
>> I don't think there are that many people killed by homes outside of
>> earthquake zones.

>
> You've not heard of the radon problem then.
>


Yes, it is the radioactivity that is causing the problem, not the home
itself.
 
Adam Lea wrote on 09/06/2007 19:16 +0100:
> "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Adam Lea wrote on 09/06/2007 15:03 +0100:
>>> I don't think there are that many people killed by homes outside of
>>> earthquake zones.

>> You've not heard of the radon problem then.
>>

>
> Yes, it is the radioactivity that is causing the problem, not the home
> itself.
>
>


That's like saying its gravity that cause the problem in the earthquake
not the home itself. The radon problem is the natural consequence of a
draught proofed home unless special precautions are taken.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell
 
In article <[email protected]>, Adam Lea
[email protected] says...
>
> "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Adam Lea wrote on 09/06/2007 15:03 +0100:
> >>
> >> I don't think there are that many people killed by homes outside of
> >> earthquake zones.

> >
> > You've not heard of the radon problem then.
> >

>
> Yes, it is the radioactivity that is causing the problem, not the home
> itself.
>

That's like putting a plastic bag over someone's head then blaming him
for using up the oxygen rather than the plastic bag for keeping it out.