Shimano catastrophic wheel failures cost team sky



CAMPYBOB

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Here's the best side shot from the stage shot I found. Textreme discs, for sure. Probably matching front tri-spokes.

SPTDW30068.jpg
 
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Froze

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What the hell is going on in Philly and metro NYC that the roads would destroy car rims and tires? Those have to be huge and deep potholes for that to happen, so why is the area not fixing the problem? I can't imagine why some private citizen hasn't sued the city for damages to their car because they failed to keep up the roads; I think there should be a class action lawsuit because then they can't ignore it.

a dozen alloy rims and tires in 15 years...my god, I've hit potholes before and never damaged a car rim or even a tire. Do you have those stupid tires that have about a 1/2 inch of sidewall? Maybe that's the problem, I would get different size rims that would allow for a standard 3 inch or so sidewall.
 

CAMPYBOB

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My sports cars have alloys. Light ones. And lo-pro performance tires.

My trucks and sport-utes...lifted and large. A mix of steel and alloys.

Cleveland potholes are epic. I hit one in a Honda CRX and destroyed a 50-series on impact. Rim survived.

Ever been to Philly, Froze? Parts of it are a war zone. Nasty, nasty areas with roads Zimbabwe would be proud to call their own.

Stop by some of your local tire shops. As k them to show you their 'back room collection' and tell you few stories. Some will be the result of epic stoopid. Others will just be luck of the draw. Like the time a guy in front of me swerved at the last minute and I didn't. Brand new Uniroyal (it was a POS set of tires anyway, but damn! It was weeks old!) asploded when I hit a chunk of steel that was on the road.
 

Froze

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It's been roughly 20 years since I've been to Philly, it doesn't sound like from the condition of the roads that I'll be going there anytime soon! LOL!!

What the heck is Philly doing? our city gets partial federal or state (can't recall which they get) to pay for about 1/2 the cost of repaving roads, why can't Philly get those grants? Our city is constantly using a slurry mix of cold asphalt to fill in potholes usually within a month of being found, which means we don't have a lot of potholes to hit since they're constantly being filled.

Auto manufactures engineers aren't using their brains...what else is new! there is no reason to use tires with sidewalls that are 1/2 inch high, tires need to be a minimal of 3 inches of side wall (includes the weight of the car pressing down on the tire) to absorb impact from pot holes so the tire doesn't bust and tire has enough air volume to protect the rim. I know the manufactures don't care as long at the car looks cool, but that's a crazy reason. There are a lot of cars built so low they can't even get over certain streets going into driveways of public and private places due to "high" water channels! Corvettes have an aftermarket thing you can buy that consist of a steel plate with roller that mounts to the front of both sides of the vehicle where it plunges the lowest so the car will skid on that instead of chewing up the front bumper but even those have now been found not to work. I see cars all over Fort Wayne with the front air dam damaged or torn off because of low clearances, even mine on my 09 Acura has scrape marks on it and I approach high drives at an angle. We have a post office in town where getting into their driveway is so steep that sports cars, and certain sedans, have to park a block away because they can't get into the main lot! I have to go in real slow at a funny angle in the Acura and hear just a slight scrape. This lot was built back in the 60's and it wasn't an issue with standard cars until the last 10 years; there were cars built over 10 years ago that had issues like the Corvette, Camaro, Firebird including Trans Am, but mostly that was it except other expensive sports cars of course, but now a lot of cars have those issues.

Hitting debris on the road like you did is unavoidable and you could have damaged even a truck tire. It's **** like potholes that if the tires had larger sidewalls could be avoided, not to mention the city needs to fix potholes.
 

kopride

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What the hell is going on in Philly and metro NYC that the roads would destroy car rims and tires? Those have to be huge and deep potholes for that to happen, so why is the area not fixing the problem? I can't imagine why some private citizen hasn't sued the city for damages to their car because they failed to keep up the roads; I think there should be a class action lawsuit because then they can't ignore it.

a dozen alloy rims and tires in 15 years...my god, I've hit potholes before and never damaged a car rim or even a tire. Do you have those stupid tires that have about a 1/2 inch of sidewall? Maybe that's the problem, I would get different size rims that would allow for a standard 3 inch or so sidewall.

Froze, I don't know where you are from, but cities like Philadelphia and NYC go through extensive freeze thaw cycles and make heavy use of asphalt, which degrades pretty quickly, particularly when you add winter road treatments.

And yes, if you are running tires with 50 or below sidewalls, and very light rims they are going to implode if you hit a nice pothole at highway speeds. On the other hand, I've got a pick up with off road tires that would laugh at potholes that would take out a low profile high performance tire.

BMW, who a few years ago, instituted run flats across their line, was particularly plagued by the problem of blowing out not only tires, but the wheels themselves. Basically, the stiff sidewalls necessary to keep the tire "running flat" would transmit forces upon impact that the regular rims designed for old fashioned non-rf tires could not handle. I understand that they've upgraded their rims across their line, but initially it really sucked. You'd blow out the tire and crack the rim--basically, a 1200 repair that was not covered by insurance.

I got so frustrated that after owning 4 BMWs, I've never bought another one due to their poor response to the problem.
 

kopride

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I


Auto manufactures engineers aren't using their brains...what else is new! there is no reason to use tires with sidewalls that are 1/2 inch high, tires need to be a minimal of 3 inches of side wall (includes the weight of the car pressing down on the tire) to absorb impact from pot holes so the tire doesn't bust and tire has enough air volume to protect the rim. I know the manufactures don't care as long at the car looks cool, but that's a crazy reason.

There are very good reasons to have low profile, low sidewall tires. It's a compromise, just like high performance bike tires. Tires are critical to handling and there is no way that you could engineer a car that can pull handling maneuvers close to 1 G that are not very low profile. Like it or not, there are lots of people who like to drive high performance cars on the street with low sidewall tires. Personally, I think that's why sedans that are re-engineered to be performance cars--like an AMG mercedes or BMW M series have more problems with tires than a pure sports car like a 911 or Cayman. If you want to make a heavy sedan post crazy performance numbers, the easiest place to start is an aggressive wheel package. it certainly destroys the ride you would normally get from a longer wheelbase heavier automobile. With a sports car, you are starting with a much lower mass, and chassis design specifically purposed for performance, so you are not asking quite as much from your tires and wheels.
 

Froze

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I understand that low profile tires handle better, but where on the street are you going to be doing a 1g plus turn? at least legally! So the only answer I have is that these low profile tire performance cars come stock with sidewalls at least large enough to handle a pothole, not sure what that height would be since I've never studied it, then if the consumer wants something with a lower profile then that they can buy tires aftermarket that would allow for that, and then in that way its the fault of the consumer for destroying rims and tires instead of making the manufacture look bad.

Having said that I still think it's the responsibility of whatever city one lives in to make streets less hazardous for cars to drive on, this what we pay taxes for, then we wouldn't be crying about tires and rims getting destroyed and the manufactures would be free to put low profile tires on.
 

CAMPYBOB

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but where on the street are you going to be doing a 1g plus turn? at least legally!

Interstate on & off ramps, for starters. I enjoy merging at higher than advertised speed limits because...no one is doing the advertised speed limits in many area that I drive.
 

Froze

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Dang Campybob, you drive like I do!

I have 79 Camaro Z28 that I love drifting that thing on ramps. I'm thinking of selling the Camaro and buying a 2001 to 2004 Corvette sometime this next winter. I actually have several vintage cars laying around but those I don't drive like a maniac. I have a friend who use to be race NASCAR, he still goofs around with stuff, and last summer when I was in California I got to race his super stock car at Kern county Raceway Park, he and I do that every time I go back to California, sometimes we go to Bakersfield Speedway which is dirt track and run his hobby stock car. Crazy, old fart like me still driving like that! I just can't afford to do track racing anymore, I stopped that years ago, but he can from all the money he made in racing over the years, he doesn't even care if I wreck the cars! so far nothing more than bumping damage with other cars. My friend and I go back all the way to high school, my only friend left from those days. He likes the outlaw tracks, and trailers his car to visit those type of tracks all over the western United States.

Don't worry Campybob if you haven't outgrown it by now, you'll never will, of course I'm speaking from experience.
 

kopride

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Live in Fort Wayne Indiana where we have the same issues with freeze and thaw cycles as Philly in fact much worse than Philly! compare the two for yourself:
http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/philadelphia/pennsylvania/united-states/uspa1276
http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/fort-wayne/indiana/united-states/usin0211
Sure, one factor is climate, but the other factor is traffic volume. Philly's bad, NYC metro area is worse. My guess is that the traffic volume in the Northeast metroplex is greater than FT Wayne.

I get the tire issue, my wife put all season performance tires and dropped down a rim size on her RS7. OEM tires and wheels were basically useless because of flats and are in storage. I drive my truck more during the peak pothole season, and have kept the aggressive tires on my performance car because it's funner.

I can also say that 911s are pretty hardy with respect to potholes because the front end is so light. Knock on wood. That car runs 30s in the rear and 35s up front, ultra low profile. I also check pressures constantly and have a very accurate digital inflator on my compressor. You're running different pressures front and rear as well, much lower pressure up front @10 psi less. There are ways to minimize flats but I smack a deep pothole at speed and the wheel and tires will be toast. For me, I understand the tradeoff.

My point is that I would not expect to run an aggressive set of wheels and tires over potholes in any vehicle, including a bike with ultra light wheels. I'd also like to know the tire pressure they are running on those tubulars. New wheelset, they could still be experimenting with optimal pressure. If they are running high pressure, which tubulars can handle, a hard pothole is going to stress the wheel more. Time trial? Maybe they're running them hard.
 

CAMPYBOB

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I'm thinking of selling the Camaro and buying a 2001 to 2004 Corvette sometime this next winter.

1. You'll absolutely love a C5 Vette. Best value going right now IMO.
2. You'll have to lose the mullet.

I'm not so much a Mario Andretti on public roads as someone that likes a safe merge. On 70 MPH interstates the average running speed is North of 80 MPH. Coming up an on-ramp I want to KNOW what's there, what's coming and how fast it's going. My daily drivers are HP challenged...sad. And the pickup trucks and sport-utes I own handle like sleds and and are timed using the Mayan calendar.
 

Froze

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1. You'll absolutely love a C5 Vette. Best value going right now IMO.
2. You'll have to lose the mullet.

I'm not so much a Mario Andretti on public roads as someone that likes a safe merge. On 70 MPH interstates the average running speed is North of 80 MPH. Coming up an on-ramp I want to KNOW what's there, what's coming and how fast it's going. My daily drivers are HP challenged...sad. And the pickup trucks and sport-utes I own handle like sleds and and are timed using the Mayan calendar.

I've been doing a lot of internet reading on the subject of Vettes and other cars like the Nissan 350z, BMW Z4, Audi TT, and Porsche Boxer. The Porsche was quickly eliminated since everything I read and people I've talked to said it requires about $2,000 a year to maintain, even if that number is high, say $1,500, (but the way I drive the $ amount would probably be on the higher end, I just couldn't justify in my tightwad mind to go that route! The Z4 is the most beautiful car of the bunch in my opinion but again the cost to maintain that car as well as the TT was estimated to be about $1,000 a year was the deciding factor against those. The Nissan is the most reliable of all the cars, and the lowest costing to maintain at around $350 a year, the cheapest to buy which means I could get a newer version vs the others, but I heard the insurance was high so I called my agent and he confirmed that the insurance would cost me $700 a year more then the Vette. Even though the Vette is the fastest of all the cars, it came in second with maintenance at about $500 a year, it really came down to cost of ownership and the Vette won; looks wise it also came in 2nd. The 350z insurance high cost and the heavy decline in value was due to fact that the youth have bought these cars and trashed and crash them more then any of the others I was considering, so people tend to look away from a used 350z and the high insurance cost is because of all the crashes they have to spread that risk out to everyone that buys one. The Vette will maintain it's value longer then any of the others as well.

So that's how my brain works with cars. I went through the same process when I needed a new sedan, I got the 09 Acura because it was the fastest of all naturally aspirated 6 cylinder front wheel drive on the market in that time frame, and with the depreciation the used price was right. It's a process I go with all my vehicle purchases and the internet helps find the lowest mileage with the best price deal. I bought a 94 Ford F150 with a 302 about 4 years ago, it only had 69,000 miles on it and no rust which is unheard of around here especially a truck of that age. It's my towing the camper, carry stuff I need when I work on my rental properties, it's my winter vehicle for driving to work.

We don't have the traffic volume like Philly that's for sure but the freezing and thawing cycle is much more then Philly and it cracks and potholes the streets pretty bad, but the city is fast with filling them in as they get reported. And like I said they are always getting grants to help pay for resurfacing the roads. The roads will get rough due to the repairs but nothing that will blow a tire, and when a street has had too many repairs and is too rough they repave it.

What I can't understand though is that (everywhere does this) they repave a road with blacktop, and then leave, if you notice all streets that have been blacktopped have a seam down the middle (because the machine only does one lane at a time), and the blacktop has small crevices, water gets into the seam especially and in freeze cycle a crack develops and eventually leads to repairs, so if they know water does this how come they don't coat the new surface with tar to seal out the water longer and prevent this sort of damage? This sort of lack of prevention to cut cost of repairs and save taxpayers money just drives me crazy. On top of all that chip and seal is actually more durable and provides more traction in the rain and winter, and cost less then blacktop but they only use that on back county roads?
 

kopride

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So that's how my brain works with cars. I went through the same process when I needed a new sedan, I got the 09 Acura because it was the fastest of all naturally aspirated 6 cylinder front wheel drive on the market in that time frame, and with the depreciation the used price was right. It's a process I go with all my vehicle purchases and the internet helps find the lowest mileage with the best price deal. I bought a 94 Ford F150 with a 302 about 4 years ago, it only had 69,000 miles on it and no rust which is unheard of around here especially a truck of that age. It's my towing the camper, carry stuff I need when I work on my rental properties, it's my winter vehicle for driving to work.

We don't have the traffic volume like Philly that's for sure but the freezing and thawing cycle is much more then Philly and it cracks and potholes the streets pretty bad, but the city is fast with filling them in as they get reported. And like I said they are always getting grants to help pay for resurfacing the roads. The roads will get rough due to the repairs but nothing that will blow a tire, and when a street has had too many repairs and is too rough they repave it.

What I can't understand though is that (everywhere does this) they repave a road with blacktop, and then leave, if you notice all streets that have been blacktopped have a seam down the middle (because the machine only does one lane at a time), and the blacktop has small crevices, water gets into the seam especially and in freeze cycle a crack develops and eventually leads to repairs, so if they know water does this how come they don't coat the new surface with tar to seal out the water longer and prevent this sort of damage? This sort of lack of prevention to cut cost of repairs and save taxpayers money just drives me crazy. On top of all that chip and seal is actually more durable and provides more traction in the rain and winter, and cost less then blacktop but they only use that on back county roads?

First, the Boxster might be more expensive to own and maintain but its a real car you can drive every day. It handles like nothing else on the road. The BMW and Audi aren't going to be much cheaper to maintain, if any. They are not remotely in the same class of sports car as the Boxster. It punches well above its weight class. Here's a good comparo from when these cars were new. http://www.caranddriver.com/compari...ve35i-audi-tts-chevy-corvette-comparison-test if you are looking for cheap fun, don't scratch the Miata off your list. http://www.autotrader.com/car-news/buying-a-used-mazda-mx-5-miata-everything-you-need-to-know-229323 Pound for pound, its the best deal out there.

Second, you are absolutely right about the chip and seal. It's planned obsolescence to keep road workers busy. We seem to use more asphalt out east than other regions that use more concrete. Maybe that's part of it, but from Boston to Baltimore, our roads on the East Coast are pretty deplorable.

Third, more to our point, crappy roads can cause injuries to cyclists at speed and break equipment. Here is a local story. I can say that I probably would not be flying over a bump at 30 mph, but this jury disagreed and found PennDOT liable. http://www.delcotimes.com/general-news/20170312/bridge-negligence-lawsuit-will-cost-penndot-5m-plus I have to say, its stuff like this that makes me train hard indoors and "ride" outdoors, unless I am very familiar with the road and traffic is light.
 

Froze

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No, the Porsche is out due to the maintenance cost, I'm a tightwad and that sort of thing goes against my grain. I did read all that stuff before, so I'm aware of the abilities of the Porsche. The Miata is too underpowered for my taste, as is the Saturn Ski Redline, which the Saturn (and the Pontiac version) has no trunk space when the top is down, but those two have a bit more power than the Miata and the Sky actually looks better too, but low power and no trunk it's axed.

That case you showed was tragic, glad he won but he really loss with the brain injury he sustained, no amount of money will bring that back. I'm a bit surprised the rider didn't notice something out of the norm with the road and slow down enough to prevent that crash. I've known riders that hit **** on the road and every time they say they never saw it, and the only explanation I can think of is riders getting hypnotized, or so zoned in to looking at the pavement about a foot in front of the front wheel they miss stuff coming at them, and moving along at any speed the object would appear too quickly to do anything to avoid it.

Speaking of deplorable roads, about 8 years ago I was in N California on the I 80, which is a major hwy that goes all the way across the US. I got past Sacramento headed towards Carson City and that whole section from Sacramento to the Nevada state line was about 50% gravel! yup the pavement had worn down, and in spots and I would go from crappy pavement to gravel and back again over and over. The gravel was the gravel bed that was suppose to be the base for the concrete and not the road crew putting it there! So the car, thank god it was a rental car!, would bang off the lip of the pavement onto the gravel and then bang back up to the pavement, and there were potholes littering the pavement like it had been used in bombing runs, some of the sections of gravel were 1/2 mile long, gravel dust was in the air so I couldn't drive with the window down, the gravel sections were actually smoother than the pavement! That was 8 years ago hopefully they fixed it by now, or that whole stretch would be nothing but gravel by now. Thought I was driving on some third world poorly kept road!!
 

CAMPYBOB

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They really detuned the latest version of the Miata. Unless you buy a stripper and strip it out, it's not going to do much more than corner and brake well. It's fun for touring and cruising though...if you get past the gay reputation. Which I can't. Older versions have a bit more HP and the pre-prepped used ones are often not only well sorted, but can be had at bargain prices compared to the thousands of dollars worth of go-fast pieces parts installed on them.

After owning one BMW and almost 30 V-Dub's of one type or another...Churman cars are 'out' for this guy. Electrical issues and cheap trim plus other stupid stuff failing that never fails on other brands from other countries. Audi's J.D. Power rating might be top shelf right now, but there's no way in Hell I'ld buy a use Auto Union! A neighbor is fighting his way through a second hand TT right now. He's owned a pair of M-B's and is at the very least 'familiar' with working on German tech. He says the Audi is easy to work on...and it's a good thing it is!

No, the C5 Vette is ****ing awesome. Fast. Comfortable. Reliable. You can get it worked on almost anywhere this side of Aleppo, Syria. Really good fuel economy if you can keep your foot out of it. All the amenities of home and a mid-line Caddy. Did I mention it hauls ass, turns and sticks and hauls down most ricky tick for a 'heavier' sports car.

Now...about that $500 maintenance cost...<Guffaw! Hack...Cough Cough> Buy a pair of tires for it and get back with me. If anything more than oil changes and belts is include in that $500 I would wring the writer's neck in disgust. Vette's ARE cheap enough to maintain, but if you're really going to daily driver it...set aside more.

Same with the Zed. Nissan quality ain't all that and unless you're pedaling a Honda Civic $300 is not going to go very far in high zoot sporty car land. And yeah, some of us change oil at less than 7500-mile intervals and use the good stuff.

Just my dos centavos worth.
 
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CAMPYBOB

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Wow! That a tragic case in your link, Kopride! Head/brain injuries are really, really serious.

Our road are, of course, in very similar condition to Pennsylvania's. Which is to say, when riding a bike hard and fast it's a great idea to stay alert, stay focused and maintain a firm grip on the bars.

We have a saying here in Ohio...NO concrete North of I70! Concrete is brittle and does not last as long as the more elastic asphalt in the freeze/thaw cycles.
 

Froze

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The Corvette was what I came to the conclusion for too. I also checked out Honda 2000s, but I'm too tall and felt like I was in a sardine can...too tall? I'm only 6' even and they couldn't make that car for what is now just average height? Another car I considered was a 85 to 89 Alfa Romeo Spider, I use to have a 73 Alfa, but they're so underpowered that the one that I had drove me crazy even though cruising with the top down was fun, and they do look really nice, and the 85 to 89 was the best years for reliability which they claim was superb, but getting parts may be an issue too, so I dismissed them mostly on the lack of power.

Anyway I'll buy it sometime late fall or early winter, I almost pulled the trigger about 5 weeks ago, but I hesitated and when I looked again 2 weeks ago prices on the convertibles jumped up $10,000 on average! So now I know when the best prices will be and will simply wait till then, plus another year of depreciation, it's all good.

The $500 thing is an average, the range was from $448 to $548; yes tires will be expensive but I don't need to buy those every year. 2001 Corvette had issues with oil leaks according to the Corvette forum so I'll stay away from that year, but the 2002 to 2005 seemed to have little in the way of issues.

Asphalt doesn't last long around here, they repaved a 40 mile section of I69 about 5 years ago and they've already been filling in cracks and potholes.
 

CAMPYBOB

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5 years on a road is about max here also. Semi's pound them to pieces. Freeze-thaw kills them.

My brother had a Fiat 128. NEVER again! I had a metric **** ton of English sports cars, an MG, a Healey, a Sunbeam, a Triumph. NEVER again. We had a French Simca 1204 GT in the family. NEVER again. Like I said, I had that 325i and a **** ton of VW's. NEVER again.

Jap **** or 'Murican for me. I got sick and tired of fixing stuff that never should have broken in the first place. Even with most American and some of the Jap stuff you have to do your research carefully to avoid 'known issues'...as you found out about the 2001 Vette oil leak (although that was an easy, cheap fix and would not deter me from buying a minty, low miles example with a known history).

I liked the Honda Sports 2000 and the BMW Z series, but neither fires me up enough styling wise and the BMW is voodoo to me. Unless my best friend is a Bimmer mechanic named 'Hans'...nope. Ain't gonna burn me again.

I would gladly own a good used 911, but I'm really about 20 years past that stage in my life. Now, I'l rather have a streeted 908 Kurtz and drive it twice a decade.
 

Froze

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I use own quite a few Brit cars myself, I had a 59 MGA that I loved the body style but the mechanicals and electrical was the worst, I felt like I was driving a piece of glass! The MGA had a crank hole at the bottom of the radiator that one could insert a crank that came with the car and crank start it, that's how confident the Brits were about their own electrical!! That MGA I wanted to keep forever but it was killing me financially.

I then had a 73 Lotus Europa JPS which was a blast to drive but suffered from electrical issues and some mechanical stuff but nothing like the MGA on that end.

Next I thought I would try a 74 TR6, it seemed to be better then the last two but still had a lot of electrical issues, but at least the engine seemed solid, though the transmission, true to Brit cars was notchy, but it held up.

Then I thought after all the crappy Brit cars I would try a 73 Alfa Romeo Spider, and while that was a step up from the Brits in terms of mechanical and electrical issues the suspension had issues, but like the Brit cars I couldn't shift it fast like American cars can which is weird since they're meant to be sports cars with lots of shifting needed when doing road rallies and mountain driving, then as time went by the trans got notch especially in 2nd so I got rid of it before a trans overhaul was going to be needed.

Then I got a 61 Datsun Fairlady 1500 but it too was plagued with problems and the parts were difficult to get unlike the Brits and Italian ones, so I didn't have that one long. That one had the power like the MGA but a cramped cabin like the MG Midget; The Japanese were coping the British mechanicals back then which is probably why they were so bad.

Then the last small sports car I bought was a 83 Nissan 280Z, this car was amazing in the reliability department. I bought it with 65,000 miles and sold it with 250,000 miles to a friend who drove it another 150,000 miles and sold it still running like a Swiss watch! Myself or my friend never did anything to that car mechanically just service it and drive, it never burned oil the whole time either. I don't know what happened to that car after my friend sold it but the way it was running I was doubting that it would ever die! At the time I owned this car I had marketing position where I had to cover all of Kern county in California and not a day go by when I had to travel back roads and was doing 120 mph for miles (which was close to it's top speed), so that car held up to that abuse without breaking a sweat. Radar detector was extremely valuable to me! Never got a ticket doing that in the 3 years I had that job.

So anyways, the hankering to get another convertible sports car is bugging me again. One of my classic cars is a 67 Ford Galaxy 500 convertible but I can't drive that everyday, I could because it is very reliable and easy to work on, but don't want to rack up the miles on it for obvious reasons, so a 2 seater convertible sports car that I can drive everyday, except winters of course, is the reason for eventually deciding on the Vette.