Shimano catastrophic wheel failures cost team sky



kopride

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I have a buddy who bought a used C5 as well; he loves it. It's a real performance bargain; and I have never heard anybody having any real buyer's remorse. The market for them is steady so if you get tired of it in a few years, you are not going to take a real hit. As mentioned, the tires and other maintenance are not cheap but probably better than a German car out of warranty. If you are going to go that way, the recent years of a the US pony cars (Mustang and Camaro) should also be considered. Lot's of value in those cars and they are not going to kill you on maintenance.

The other option is to go totally out of the box and get a Cobra replica. Some of them are very tight little cars with monster performance. If its got a simple 5L (or 4.6L) Ford motor, they are practically zero to run. You can get a nice Factory Five build with a 5.0 for less than 30k; or you can go crazy and spend up to 100k for a car with a tuned Rosch motor. It is its own quest to find the right one, but if you are a car guy, that's half of the fun. That community are filled with lots of straight shooters and good guys. Like boats, the happiest two days of a real classic car are the day you buy it and the day you sell it. These replicas don't ride like real 50 year old machines. All the running gear is relatively modern and uncomplicated. If you ever drive one, you will want to own one. Insanely fast, great handling, sound great, looks like nothing else on the road.

The main problem with all used modern-era high end performance cars is the computer, software, and electronics. Most folks replace their laptops every few years because they are basically junk and obsolete after that time. Putting similar electronics in cars does not change their real life spans. The Germans never really had a great electronics industry that matched up with their mechanical prowess, which was always overrated--they made a lot of shitty cars. As cars have become more reliant on electronics and technologically complex, the Europeans just don't have the industry to support long term reliable systems that are going to last beyond the warranty. The days of people buying an E or S class and keeping it for 10 years are over. Most rich folks are leasing cars for 3 years and trading them in for the newest model. As a result, a lot of the higher end German cars are maintenance nightmares after they run out of warranty. Their certified used programs exist solely to keep the Lease residuals from going in the toilet. I can't even imagine servicing the first generation i-drive on a 740.

That being said, Porsche still makes very nice sports cars, and you are not really comparing apples to apples market wise. Compared to a Ferrari, Aston Martin, or another exotic sports car, a 911, in all its variants, is a very reliable serviceable car that can be driven on ordinary roads every day. It is every bit as capable of most of the high end exotics, more capable in certain trims, and just as much fun to drive. I guarantee that none but the most capable drivers will ever even get close to the limits of a Boxster. You've got to break the 250k mark in a used Ferrari before you will outrun a Cayman on a track.

The newest Corvette is also an absolute value in terms of performance, comparable to nearly all of the exotics, but in terms of exclusivity, it might not have the same appeal. (That might change if GM doesn't insist in making the interior look similar to a Malibu or Cruze) The Boxster/Cayman level of Porsches are the same deal in terms of their market. They are more expensive to maintain than other cars in their price class, but they will outperform most exotics costing 2 or 3 times more, on the track and road. The Lotus is also an amazing performer for its price if you can tolerate riding in it for more than an hour.

Simply put, I would drive a 911, Boxster, or C5 Vette across the country without a complaint. I spent 3 hours on a ride in a BMW Z and was like . . . let me out of this little thing. An old Alfa Spyder is more comfortable. Audi's are souless. Sure the Miata is nothing speedy, but I would drive a Miata on a long weekend drive on windy country roads and arrive with a smile. It's a great little package.

At the end of the day, you get what moves you. I'd love to pick up an old Manx dune buggy to lug around my surf boards. Please don't ask me to explain that one.
 

CAMPYBOB

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The other option is to go totally out of the box and get a Cobra replica. Some of them are very tight little cars with monster performance. If its got a simple 5L (or 4.6L) Ford motor, they are practically zero to run. You can get a nice Factory Five build with a 5.0 for less than 30k

Guy I work with built a Factory 5 w/5.0 after buying a donor Mustank for the running gear. With a bunch of Summit Racing BS on it (Summit is only a few miles from here) he has maybe $30K in it and three years of on & off build hours. No heater. No top. Rides like a brick. Fast enough in a straight line, but the handling...more like a light pony car than a sports car. Looks really good.

For $50K and up...yeah, they get to be REAL fast and handle like a race car!


I spent 3 hours on a ride in a BMW Z and was like . . . let me out of this little thing. An old Alfa Spyder is more comfortable.

Wow! If an old Giulia is more comfy...yikes! I see a lot of low miles Z-series on the market in my area. Maybe a GTA and a mechanic named Paolo to keep the SPICA fuel injection squirting? What the Hell am I thinking?! Might as well try to restore a Citroen-Maserati!


Audi's are souless.

Pretty much my opinion of them. At least the ones I could afford. Might as well buy a Camry.


I'd love to pick up an old Manx dune buggy to lug around my surf boards. Please don't ask me to explain that one.

No need to explain if you really have boards and use them. I see the odd Manx every now and again every Summer. Brings back the memories of youth! I had a lot of old bugs, but never got the itch to do a dune buggy up.
 

kopride

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I might be out of date on pricing, and maybe the sweet spot now is closer to 50k. I've been out of gawking at them for a while, and my interest has moved on to other stuff, but once upon a time, the F5 spec racers set up for the racing series were impressive performers and posted great lap times. This Car and Driver article is pretty old, but the performance even from a donor mustang is better than a pony car of that era. C&D had it posting more than 1 G. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/factory-five-racing-spec-racer-specialty-file-specs-page-4
Building your own might be beyond the weekend mechanics ability. Most of the ones I looked at and saw when I was thinking of pulling the trigger on were professionally built; and you could pick one up a few years old for 25k. For me, as cool as it was, I didn't think that there were that many days when I would want to leave a 911 in the garage to ride around in an open air monster. For a summer night Friday night cruise, a track day, it probably offers more than a 50 year old classic in terms of thrills. It certainly outperforms old muscle cars of that era, and looks pretty darn cool. If I saw a well sorted one next to a BMW Z, and it was a sunny nice day, I'd jump in the Cobra. It's a no brainer next to an old MG or other British rust buckets with Lucas electronics.

A C5 (or even a very clean C4) is a different animal. As long as you're willing to keep buying new rubber, you can drive those cars all day. The new Vette is an incredible value. True world class performance
 

Froze

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I want a two seater so my just my wife and I can ride in it, so that leaves out the Stang, and the Camaro.

I forgot to mention that I did consider the replica Cobra but the cheapest one I could find was $42,000 so I disregarded it quick, but since you mentioned that they may be found cheaper I'll keep an eye open on the internet to see if I can find one, I have till next winter anyways.

I understood from the internet stuff that the all the C4's but not the first year, had issues with the manual trans not being beefy enough to handle the horse power, in addition to that the C4 doesn't perform like the C5 which is closer to the sort of power my wife could handle if she had to drive it for some reason.

The Miata just doesn't do anything for me. If I wanted that kind of performance I would buy the Alfa first which may not perform as well as the Miata but it is a classic, looks nicer (imo), and it's easier to work on.

None of my British, Italian or Japanese cars ever rusted, but I did live in California so rusting cars were rare. I did however had the exhaust system replaced on the MGA and the dope that did the work put the exhaust to close to the floorboard which was made of plywood, yup, about 8 miles down the road in an area where no campfires were allowed, I smell wood burning, so I was looking around for a forest fire starting, till I noticed smoke coming between my legs! I stopped the vehicle fast and ran to a house and got water to pour on it. From then on I carried a fire extinguisher!
 

CAMPYBOB

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Unless you bought the most deluxe and complete F5 kits and sub-kits...it's a job for the VERY mechanically inclined. You have to have a complete tool collection, access to a welder, a drill press and a milling machine is a nice option. My co-worker paid $600 for the F5 wiring harness and said it was a steal compared to trying to use the Mustank harness he carefully pulled off the donor car...with clips and connectors cracking and breaking from age.

His basic kit was $13K IIRC, but he ended up ordering a lot more from F5 as he went along. And we have a complete aerospace machine shop at our disposal.

Yes, the weight advantage of the F5...although that glass bodywork is typically heavy...gives the kit cars a distinct performance advantage. The...what is it Kirk? alloy Cobra or the carbon fiber body options both cost a lot, but shave mega pounds more off the scale weight slip. No bumpers, no heater (he did put wipers on his), no 400 sensors and electric toys, none of the creature comforts in 95% of those F5 builds. And you pay for it outside of the race track and show-off hole shots.

The race series F5 sponsor was awesome. That would be fun if the sponsorship was with you. Count me in!

The basic F5's handle like a go-kart with the Stank rear end. Smooth stuff, you will haul ass on. Bump steer takes on new meaning and he is constantly bitching that a 150-mile drive to a car show is punishing. Driveline noise (exhaust at you ears), wind noise and the rough ride are not to be taken lightly.

If you go for the IRS setup and optional front suspension kits and spend some time on balance, weight distribution and know a little about tuning the sway bars, setting up a decent amount of camber...Katy bar the door. You'll be right there with the latest Vette's and probably be able to out-drive the old geezer behind the wheel anyway.

As cyclists we consider anything wider than a 146 MM brick of a saddle for 6 hours as the very lap of luxury. I can still haul ballz on a moto GP bike for a couple hours and not bat an eye. Most folks spend an hour in that Cobra (or Bimmer Zed series) and they have to be unfolded first before they can move and get up and out of the low-slung 'trucks'.

It's a no brainer next to an old MG or other British rust buckets with Lucas electronics.

Don't get me started!
 

Froze

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eek, no I won't be building my own car, the cost of tools and all the stuff would be worse than just buying one already made, plus with the kind of time I have on my hands it would probably take 10 years not 6 to 8 months when I plan on buying one...completely built of course! LOL
 

CAMPYBOB

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I did however had the exhaust system replaced on the MGA and the dope that did the work put the exhaust to close to the floorboard which was made of plywood, yup, about 8 miles down the road in an area where no campfires were allowed, I smell wood burning, so I was looking around for a forest fire starting, till I noticed smoke coming between my legs! I stopped the vehicle fast and ran to a house and got water to pour on it. From then on I carried a fire extinguisher!

I help restore a friend's MGA Twin Cam. We used marine grade plywood and made new floor inserts for it. That car was a sweetheart. It would almost keep up with my 3-liter Healey and second gear in that A-H was a stump puller! That 6-holer was like a baby Jag...torque from almost stalled to redline. I both of us launched well, I could get a door on him by second gear and a length hitting 3rd. His little 4-holer pulled strongly!
 

dhk2

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Man those MGA stories are good. My first car was a '56 MGA, bought in '66 from a farmer who rolled it out of the barn. $150 with a slipping clutch, a "minor repair" which only required pulling the engine and trans over a weekend.

Only other British car I owned was a '67 XKE 2+2. Bought in 72, sold in 74 when I was moving, made $500 on the car when I sold it for $3250....thought that was some big money! That Jag never let me down on the road, but seemed I was spending every weekend chasing some oil leak, tuning the 3 SU's, or replacing some minor parts. It was really an antique car, but I still remember 3rd gear pulling hard from 3 grand, 80 mph....the exhaust note was a thing of joy.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Jeeze...a mint 1967 'E' type today brings...what? $40K? I was a passenger in a 2+2 going about 130 MPH and looked out the side window and saw the door skin fluttering...

I had a 1967 MGB-GT with all of 98 HP. Like my other English wonders, all I did was work on it. Red, black leather with red piping, chrome wires, walnut steering wheel and dash trim. It was beautiful and stationary for lots of time to admire its beauty.

You can still find the lesser Brit cars for reasonable money, bu IMO that's about what they're worth. They are weekend toys at best in my book of life.

And yeah, dhk2, you are correct about the exhaust sounds. Triumph, MG, Jag, Healey...doesn't matter. With an Abarth or Stebro on them they sounded like God, himself, on a warm Summer night with a little fog in the air! The only sound in life that compares are the noises made by a Harley in full flight or a radial airplane engine pulling take-off revs.
 

kopride

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Jeeze...a mint 1967 'E' type today brings...what? $40K? I was a passenger in a 2+2 going about 130 MPH and looked out the side window and saw the door skin fluttering...

I had a 1967 MGB-GT with all of 98 HP. Like my other English wonders, all I did was work on it. Red, black leather with red piping, chrome wires, walnut steering wheel and dash trim. It was beautiful and stationary for lots of time to admire its beauty.

You can still find the lesser Brit cars for reasonable money, bu IMO that's about what they're worth. They are weekend toys at best in my book of life.

And yeah, dhk2, you are correct about the exhaust sounds. Triumph, MG, Jag, Healey...doesn't matter. With an Abarth or Stebro on them they sounded like God, himself, on a warm Summer night with a little fog in the air! The only sound in life that compares are the noises made by a Harley in full flight or a radial airplane engine pulling take-off revs.

For most sane folks, the British car bug only bites you once-- the cliche ending with the phrase: "shame on me" comes to mind. Rust? Check; Tight Spaces that make it virtually impossible to service? Check; Overheat? Check; Underpowered? Check; Nightmarish electrical system? Check; poor fit and finish? Check; parts falling off unexpectedly? Check; at least one bleeding edge critical system (dual carbs that cannot be synchro'd, fuel injection, double oh cams) that has not been fully sorted? Check; Wood parts prone to rot? Check. In other words, you pay a high price for their beauty and sound.

A weekend toy is something that can sit all week, and you can jump in and drive with little maintenance or hassle. A British car is something you plan to drive, give it a once over the night before where it turns over and runs beautifully, and then when you start it the next day, it won't run. Honestly, I think you'd be better off joining some S & M club and just have a dominatrix beat you for an hour. It's the same thing and much cheaper and more sane.
 

Froze

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I was insane, I had three Brit cars hoping to find the rare car that never gave much in issues, there were a few but the odds were against you finding one, even the Jag was horrible. I belonged to various British car clubs and knew Jag owners, and most hated the Jag but they wouldn't depart from it either, once I found a MGA and a Jag owner that rarely had issues.

The MGA I had came with the 1500 cc (actually the real cc number was lower but I can recall it now), but the guy that had it before me rebuilt the engine to deliver what he said was 120 hp which was more hp then the twin cam, I know it had more because I raced a twin cam once and beat it, but of course that doesn't prove the actual hp. However that engine didn't last long, the guy that owned it before me put roughly 5,000 miles and I put roughly 6 or 7 thousand miles and a bearing was just beginning to sound off so I sold the car, I was tired of putting money into anyways.

I did however learn how to adjust multiple carbs and got real good at it; so if I saw someone frustrated with adjusting their 6 pack Mopars etc, or other British multi carb cars I would just grab my vacuum gauge out the trunk and swagger over and do the adjustments in about 15 minutes, it took longer then necessary because I was always showing the driver how to it and what to buy.

You other readers out there don't laugh at multi carb cars because today we have fuel injection. I saw last year on TV a championship drag race (can't recall the fuel type) that after the bracketing was done involved a modified T bucket that had 8 single barrel carbs that was originally built for dragging in the 50's!! the family decided to uncover it 59 years later rebuilt everything, and drag it again, the only improvement they made was to put ladder bars under the car but retained all the 50's stuff, they went up against a newer model Camaro with fuel injection and tore that Camaro up by 2 car lengths! That T Bucket was putting out some serious power, keep in mind too that the T-Bucket was as far from being aerodynamic like the modern car, no downforce, just a brick in the air.
 

CAMPYBOB

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For most sane folks, the British car bug only bites you once

I was a repeat offender! I actually enjoyed working on them and they did teach me a lot...mostly how NOT to design and build a car!

I still have a fairly complete set of Whitworth wrenches and sockets.

My neighbor is a serious Brit bike enthusiast. From late 1950's to the newest, he has a stable of mostly Triumphs and BSA's. Some Rickman stuff and he can wrench on all the mainstay marques.

It takes a skilled wrench turner to get a good ride out of a factory built English car or bike, but it can be done. Personally, I view the Germans as having inherited the Brit's old position in the automotive hierarchy...esoteric and overly complex designs...unreliable electric systems...expensive and sometimes difficult to obtain parts...

A somewhat wealthy friend of mine always had M-B's for daily drivers and then got on a BMW kick. He would buy a new BWM every couple of years...until he bought a 3xx series that fouled spark plugs every time he started it up in the morning! It was towed to the dealership so many times the tow truck driver would swing by his house in the morning without being called! The dealership and BMW couldn't get it straightened out and that was the end of German stuff for him. Now drives a Taco and an Avalon.
 

kopride

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I was a repeat offender! I actually enjoyed working on them and they did teach me a lot...mostly how NOT to design and build a car!

I still have a fairly complete set of Whitworth wrenches and sockets.

My neighbor is a serious Brit bike enthusiast. From late 1950's to the newest, he has a stable of mostly Triumphs and BSA's. Some Rickman stuff and he can wrench on all the mainstay marques.

It takes a skilled wrench turner to get a good ride out of a factory built English car or bike, but it can be done. Personally, I view the Germans as having inherited the Brit's old position in the automotive hierarchy...esoteric and overly complex designs...unreliable electric systems...expensive and sometimes difficult to obtain parts...

A somewhat wealthy friend of mine always had M-B's for daily drivers and then got on a BMW kick. He would buy a new BWM every couple of years...until he bought a 3xx series that fouled spark plugs every time he started it up in the morning! It was towed to the dealership so many times the tow truck driver would swing by his house in the morning without being called! The dealership and BMW couldn't get it straightened out and that was the end of German stuff for him. Now drives a Taco and an Avalon.

There are always guys who are wizards with certain esoteric arts. As the boomers age out of the classic car game, I wonder what the market will be for British cars that require a full time Nigel with his Whitworths looking under your bonnet. We'll see. For me, its a bug I'm glad I never caught. You might as well start fixing French cars.

The 36 month lease has changed the luxury and performance car game. MB is no longer interested in making the 750,000 mile sedans. Why bother since the target audience is not keeping them for that time. BMW never made rock solid reliable cars; and Audi's, up until recently, were never reliable. There was a reason why the warranty pretty much covered everything the first three years because you used it. The market now is making cars with a 4 year life span only to be traded in for the newer sportier model.

I had a 2001 Taco that I sold kicking and screaming 10 years later to a Toyota mechanic. Rock solid 4 cylinder with 5 speed that was Taliban ready to drive over the Hindu Kush and could be fixed with duct tape and a cheap socket set. Four spark plugs and a basic fuel injection system. My new 2017 is no better or worse than the compact pick ups from any other company. It has an auto and 6 cylinder that barely feels as responsive as the 4, and get's crappy mileage. With the Avalon, Toyota successfully replicated all the joy and fun of driving an '83 Olds 88 Regency. Order me one in Burnt Orange Sienna with a vinyl roof and wire wheels.
 

Froze

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I'm trying to think what a Taco is and the only thing that comes to my mind is a Tahoe.

The MGA for some reason kept breaking axles, to the tune of 3 in 8 months, even going to recycling yards to find the entire unit still would fail (I couldn't buy new ones). On top of that I broke 3 transmissions so off to the recycle yard again which was cheaper then rebuilding it. Then of course the completely remade wiring harness that after talking to others I decided to make it out of American wiring and just color match, of course it wasn't original so I would have never been able to take it a Concours show, but at least it worked after that. Two or three generators, a starter. The fuel pump would stop working about every 500 miles, but the fix while easy at no cost was still frustrating, the fuel pump had a set of contacts inside similar to points, so I would have to open up the battery compartment take out the right side 6v battery, snap the cover off on the fuel pump, take some emery paper and clean the contacts and put back together, this fix took about 20 minutes and would just make the car die anywhere it happen to be, this happened because the pump was located close to the road and protected by nothing other then the cap which wasn't sealed so dirt got into the contacts. Fried the wiper motor, fried the push button starter switch 5 times. All this frying stuff I thought the regulator was bad even though it checked out good, so I replaced it anyways, same problem with the new one. Not really sure why I put the top up when it was raining because the window curtains leaked...no, not leaked, poured water in between the window frame and the convertible top and the curtain; and the wipers were so slow might as well had turned those off too!

There were a couple of things I actually liked mechanically on the car believe it or not. I like that the spoke wheels had the knock off spinner which allowed for fast flat changes. And the shock absorbers were able to be custom tuned from a soft to a hard ride by simply switching to thinner oil for softer ride or thicker oil for a firm ride, that was really a slick idea. The factory said it could use 10 to 30 weight oil, I used 15/50! it worked just fine and made the car go from leaning to not and would slide through curves like crazy, it was fun sliding that car around. I heard people say that the heavy oil would damage the shocks but I never had that issue but that may be from the multi grade oil which made the car handle better then the max 30 single weight. Union 76 back then had a 15/50 oil that I used not only in my cars but the shocks on the MGA as well.

Never owned a German car, almost bought a 65 MBZ 300SE convertible, but it needed a complete carb replacement, there were two of them, the cost back in 1980 was $1,200!! No German cars for me! LOL
 

Froze

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I had a few Whitworth tools but left them in my TR6 when I sold it because I was never buying another British car, I got most of my tools from either S & K or Challenger back in those days, all did the job that the more expensive Whitworth's did though there were some sizes only Whitworth had so I bought those as needed, and the MGA came with a few too. I heard from fellow British car club guys that those (older) Whitworths were not made real well and they would on occasion break...like the cars did! though I never broke any. I have a few other brands of hand tools I either found or my dad had but the bulk of my stuff is the S&K and Challenger.

Geez, it's snowing like crazy here right now.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Taco = Toyota Tacoma. They 'were' the best of the small trucks for two decades. Now, like Kopride said...just another mid-size pickup. That still commands a price and resale value based on the reputation of the older models.

With the Avalon, Toyota successfully replicated all the joy and fun of driving an '83 Olds 88 Regency. Order me one in Burnt Orange Sienna with a vinyl roof and wire wheels.

I'm crying!!! Burnt Orange with the cream landau roof...and 'opera' lamps! Fake wire wheel covers and brocade seats for the win! Sure the Avalon is a snooze, but what a laid out, reliable, ultra comfy snooze it is. Jap luxo liners are so weird as to be almost kewl.
 
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CAMPYBOB

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I heard from fellow British car club guys that those (older) Whitworths were not made real well and they would on occasion break...like the cars did!

By the 1970's the only Whitworth tools commonly available at car parts store were junk. I asked some Leyland Motors wrench turners where to buy the good stuff.

Your memory is good. Several Imperial 'inch' sizes subbed for the next size Whitworth size perfectly.
 

CAMPYBOB

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ike that the spoke wheels had the knock off

Puleeeeze! Knock 'ON's', Froze. For God's sake...at least pretend to be Engrish!

I had several sets. Spent a Summer with infected finger nails from using Brillo Pads to constantly polish the rust off the chrome bastards. Beautiful, but maintenance nightmares. Had a set tuned by an outfit in Dayton, Ohio. Not cheap.

Somewhere around here is a genuine MG bronze knock on hammer.
 

Froze

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Puleeeeze! Knock 'ON's', Froze. For God's sake...at least pretend to be Engrish!

I had several sets. Spent a Summer with infected finger nails from using Brillo Pads to constantly polish the rust off the chrome bastards. Beautiful, but maintenance nightmares. Had a set tuned by an outfit in Dayton, Ohio. Not cheap.

Somewhere around here is a genuine MG bronze knock on hammer.

Knock on? odd because here in the good ol USA we called then knock off's! see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_wheel Scan down to the bold print that says sports cars about a third of the way down.