Skull Study Proves Bike Helmets Work



Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On 28 Apr 2006 18:04:15 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Once they are over 18, then they should have free choice, but
> >insurance companies shouldn't have to pay for head injuries incurred
> >while not wearing a helmet, and if the state pays, then the tax
> >returns, if any, should be taken until the cost is payed off.
> > Freedom always comes with cost, and responsibility.
> >Bill C
>
> Bill, I don't give a damn who wears a helmet, but I did do the numbers
> on capitated coverage in an inner city, and closely, as in making a
> mistake meant the difference between being in business and not. The
> tax payers do NOT have to worry about the impact of people riding
> bikes without helmets. They DO have to worry about the costs of AIDS,
> diabetes, emphysema, and other diseases, because they happen every day
> and to a large portion of the population especially those that have no
> medical coverage.
>
> While I will not argue that a person that rides a bike without a
> helmet is safer than one that rides with a helmet, I will argue that
> the potential impact on long term health costs of a person that rides
> a bike with or without a helmet is positive compared to sitting on a
> couch, eating a Big Mac, washing it down with a soda and staring at a
> tv. Guess which one happens more often?
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

I agree completely that there is no question that the benefit to
society of riding with, or without, especially today with obesity
exploding, is a huge positive. I'm have no idea what the dollar cost to
society is for non-helmet accidents, but I'm sure it's a miniscule
percentage of the costs of heart disease, diabetes, etc...A little
investment in long term prevention and education would go a long way,
especially with kids, but we can't seem to get out of the instant
gratification/reactive mode and plan ahead a bit.
Look at all the schools that cut phys ed/gym first thing, that's about
as short sighted as it gets. I'm not saying it's the schools fault,
because they are in the academic education business as a bottom line,
I'm saying it's all our faults for not supporting the investment better
whether it's with money or more direct involvement.
Bill C
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 01:00:59 -0400, "Charles" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Helmets create jobs. Someome has to design and manufacture the things. Well
> >on second thought, maybe not. We will need fewer doctors and Paramedics.
>
> No, not really. We occasionally get a psuedo-EMT on the lists that
> tells about all of the helmetless bicycle riders he or she hauls into
> the emergency room, but I've found no emergency clinic that claims
> such stats. Talk to an EMT at the next bike race and ask him how many
> of his or her runs are for bike riders. Check out the traffic in the
> local area - see how many are for bike riders. Stop at a sports or
> long term treatment facility and see how many are there due to
> helmetless bike riding. Damn few.
>
> No, the EMTs are rushing to auto accidents, heart attacks, falls in
> the bathtub, failure to breathes, on and on. Most of the bike
> incidents? Small kids, helmet or no.
>
> Long term care? Auto accidents, seizures, brain damage as a secondary
> or tertiary situation of another medical incident. Damn few from
> riding without a helmet.
>
> Go back to your war, but try real targets.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)

Hey Curtis
You need a time penalty or something. Intelligent discussion is NOT
allowed in helmet threads. You have to be a raving, flaming, looney of
either persuasion. Rational people have been punted out of this
forever. They don't want to hear from us because they're on a Crusade
for your own good, Damnit!
Glad to see you posting and hope the weekend went well.
Bill C
 
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 01 May 2006 16:22:34 +0200, Sandy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>I have no intuition, but I'll bet you can find better data, from which
>>>to derive opinions, from countries with national health insurance. In
>>>such an envirionment, people feel very free to use hospital facilities,
>>>as there is not going to be a big charge. This would pick up data on
>>>the scrapes and bruises that may go unreported in the US. Don't know
>>
>> EMT runs and emergency room reports are the U.S. equivalent of
>> national health care in many areas. Many emergency rooms are not
>> permitted to turn away a real case and one of the issues that I dealt
>> with was a tendency for people in inner city Baltimore to use the
>> emergency room rather than the health clinic (which raised expenses
>> pretty much all the way around). So if you are talking about incidents
>> requiring treatment, the e-room is a good barometer, at least in an
>> urban setting.
>>
>> Curtis L. Russell
>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>> Just someone on two wheels...
>
> It is difficult to compare US health care statistics with national health
> systems. In many industrialized countries with national health coverage
> (most industrialized western countries) people are probably not only more
> likely to go to a hospital for treatment, they are also more likely to go
> to a primary care physician as well. Most of the poor, working poor and
> others in the US with no coverage frequently use the ER as their primary
> point of medial care. I'd be interested to see the statistical
> differences whether related to cycling injuries or not.

It isn't hard to compare national heath care in Great Britain, New Zealand,
Canada or Australia now is it? Why do you suppose we haven't seen any
"study" save the few rare one's that have massaged the data for minor
injuries and extrapolate to serious injuries or deaths from that?

The fact is that you CAN'T make statistical revelations with the largest
numbers in any one country and if you combine the numbers from all first
world countries there STILL isn't enough data to make any accurate
prognostication of any changes in serios injuries or deaths prevented by
helmets.

If there is the odd man accident in which a helmet makes any detectible
difference it is easily a freak accident and one that actually PROVES that
we should be spending our money elsewhere.
 
"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Mon, 01 May 2006 16:22:34 +0200, Sandy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I have no intuition, but I'll bet you can find better data, from which
>>>>to derive opinions, from countries with national health insurance. In
>>>>such an envirionment, people feel very free to use hospital facilities,
>>>>as there is not going to be a big charge. This would pick up data on
>>>>the scrapes and bruises that may go unreported in the US. Don't know
>>>
>>> EMT runs and emergency room reports are the U.S. equivalent of
>>> national health care in many areas. Many emergency rooms are not
>>> permitted to turn away a real case and one of the issues that I dealt
>>> with was a tendency for people in inner city Baltimore to use the
>>> emergency room rather than the health clinic (which raised expenses
>>> pretty much all the way around). So if you are talking about incidents
>>> requiring treatment, the e-room is a good barometer, at least in an
>>> urban setting.
>>>
>>> Curtis L. Russell
>>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>>> Just someone on two wheels...
>>
>> It is difficult to compare US health care statistics with national health
>> systems. In many industrialized countries with national health coverage
>> (most industrialized western countries) people are probably not only more
>> likely to go to a hospital for treatment, they are also more likely to go
>> to a primary care physician as well. Most of the poor, working poor and
>> others in the US with no coverage frequently use the ER as their primary
>> point of medial care. I'd be interested to see the statistical
>> differences whether related to cycling injuries or not.
>
> It isn't hard to compare national heath care in Great Britain, New
> Zealand, Canada or Australia now is it? Why do you suppose we haven't seen
> any "study" save the few rare one's that have massaged the data for minor
> injuries and extrapolate to serious injuries or deaths from that?
>
> The fact is that you CAN'T make statistical revelations with the largest
> numbers in any one country and if you combine the numbers from all first
> world countries there STILL isn't enough data to make any accurate
> prognostication of any changes in serios injuries or deaths prevented by
> helmets.
>
> If there is the odd man accident in which a helmet makes any detectible
> difference it is easily a freak accident and one that actually PROVES that
> we should be spending our money elsewhere.

Eunuch, it's clear you didn't read my post. Reread it and pay particular
attention to the last sentence.
As for your comment on statistical cross studies of various health care
systems, once again you're wrong. SSDD for the Eunuch.
 
On 1 May 2006 13:14:56 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Glad to see you posting and hope the weekend went well.

Beautiful day, big crowd, and good speakers. Elie Weisel is still in
good form. We pulled to the edges of the crowd to finally eat lunch
about the time George Clooney and the celebrities started to speak, so
we could hear them but not see them. We were swimming upstream against
young girls trying to get closer to the center when we left.

Other than the priest that pulled the Armenian genocide into the
picture a bit more than appropriate and the NAACP spokesman, which
much like the last four or five times they have appeared at an event,
they seem to be more addressing internal and external politics and
less whatever the event is about, the day was non-political,
interacial and interfaith, though skewed Jewish because of their
historical concern with genocide. Jewish groups occupied the entire
right side of the mall for all practical purposes. Felt like I was
back at the JCC, especially when some guy started blowing a
mini-shofar horn.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
> The fact is that you CAN'T make statistical revelations with the
> largest numbers in any one country and if you combine the
> numbers from all first world countries there STILL isn't enough
> data to make any accurate prognostication of any changes in
> serios injuries or deaths prevented by helmets.

Inconclusiveness is double-edged.

> If there is the odd man accident in which a helmet makes any detectible
> difference it is easily a freak accident and one that actually PROVES that
> we should be spending our money elsewhere.

Some people get satisfaction from gambling. It proves nothing since
gambling is valued by gamblers.

If one "wins" a freak accident lottery by having a positive but
unexpected result, then this simply says the unlikely result was
exactly what the gambler hoped to win by playing.
 
Pudd'nhead Wilson wrote:
>>The fact is that you CAN'T make statistical revelations with the
>>largest numbers in any one country and if you combine the
>>numbers from all first world countries there STILL isn't enough
>>data to make any accurate prognostication of any changes in
>>serios injuries or deaths prevented by helmets.
>
>
> Inconclusiveness is double-edged.

I think you will find that either:

Inconclusiveness is...

OR, more in a sword-like vein:

Inconclusiveness doesn't have a point.
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On 1 May 2006 13:14:56 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Glad to see you posting and hope the weekend went well.
>
> Beautiful day, big crowd, and good speakers. Elie Weisel is still in
> good form. We pulled to the edges of the crowd to finally eat lunch
> about the time George Clooney and the celebrities started to speak, so
> we could hear them but not see them. We were swimming upstream against
> young girls trying to get closer to the center when we left.
>
> Other than the priest that pulled the Armenian genocide into the
> picture a bit more than appropriate and the NAACP spokesman, which
> much like the last four or five times they have appeared at an event,
> they seem to be more addressing internal and external politics and
> less whatever the event is about, the day was non-political,
> interacial and interfaith, though skewed Jewish because of their
> historical concern with genocide. Jewish groups occupied the entire
> right side of the mall for all practical purposes. Felt like I was
> back at the JCC, especially when some guy started blowing a
> mini-shofar horn.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

Really seemed like a great weekend. Thanks for the inside scoop, and
helping keep it in the public's eye. Wish I could've been there.
Bill C
 
"Pudd'nhead Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> The fact is that you CAN'T make statistical revelations with the
>> largest numbers in any one country and if you combine the
>> numbers from all first world countries there STILL isn't enough
>> data to make any accurate prognostication of any changes in
>> serios injuries or deaths prevented by helmets.
>
> Inconclusiveness is double-edged.

Indeed, how right you are. But we can't prove a negative and everyone else
is insisting that helmet MUST work because they're "better than nothing."

>> If there is the odd man accident in which a helmet makes any detectible
>> difference it is easily a freak accident and one that actually PROVES
>> that
>> we should be spending our money elsewhere.
>
> Some people get satisfaction from gambling. It proves nothing since
> gambling is valued by gamblers.
>
> If one "wins" a freak accident lottery by having a positive but
> unexpected result, then this simply says the unlikely result was
> exactly what the gambler hoped to win by playing.

You can argue with that logic but that only works on an individual scale.
The government and thousands of charities and "safety" organizations are
spending millions of dollars each year pretty helmets where the same money
spend teaching them proper diet, exercise and good habits would have
IMMEDIATE, LARGE and LASTING positive effects that would be detectable in a
year or so.

There's nothing wrong with you deciding that for your money a helmet is a
good investment or a good gamble if you must. But the frantic screeching
from the helmet lobby is turning into something of a bizarre lie that's
taken on a life of its own.

You can see MANY organizations using the phoney results from the
decades-since-discredited Thomas, Rivara, Thompson paper in all of their
present day "safety programs".

People have become mentally disturbed about helmets and its all BS.
 
"Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote:
> EMT runs and emergency room reports are the U.S. equivalent of
> national health care in many areas. Many emergency rooms are not
> permitted to turn away a real case and one of the issues that I dealt
> with was a tendency for people in inner city Baltimore to use the
> emergency room rather than the health clinic (which raised expenses
> pretty much all the way around). So if you are talking about incidents
> requiring treatment, the e-room is a good barometer, at least in an
> urban setting.

Actually NO emergency department in the US is allowed to turn away anyone,
at least without performing a "medical screening exam". To do otherwise
would be to violate the Federal law, the EMTALA. In fact, to even ask for
payment or discuss financial aspects prior to the MSE violates EMTALA. It
is, therefore, not much of a surprise that people use the ED for routine
health care not only in the inner city but all over the country. It is
probably the only business in the US were you can walk in and spend
thousands of dollars without any addressing of the cost beforehand. I don't
think that there would be any reason to think that ED use is greater in
countries with national health care, in fact I would expect that ED use
would be less there.

Mike Murray
 
"Mike Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> EMT runs and emergency room reports are the U.S. equivalent of
>> national health care in many areas. Many emergency rooms are not
>> permitted to turn away a real case and one of the issues that I dealt
>> with was a tendency for people in inner city Baltimore to use the
>> emergency room rather than the health clinic (which raised expenses
>> pretty much all the way around). So if you are talking about incidents
>> requiring treatment, the e-room is a good barometer, at least in an
>> urban setting.
>
> Actually NO emergency department in the US is allowed to turn away anyone,
> at least without performing a "medical screening exam". To do otherwise
> would be to violate the Federal law, the EMTALA. In fact, to even ask for
> payment or discuss financial aspects prior to the MSE violates EMTALA.
> It is, therefore, not much of a surprise that people use the ED for
> routine health care not only in the inner city but all over the country.
> It is probably the only business in the US were you can walk in and spend
> thousands of dollars without any addressing of the cost beforehand. I
> don't think that there would be any reason to think that ED use is greater
> in countries with national health care, in fact I would expect that ED use
> would be less there.

Damn! I wish I knew that when I had my toe smashed by a lawnmower. I was in
the emergency room for over an hour while they tried to find a doctor and
you could hear them on the phone with plastic surgeons and says, "No he
hasn't got any insurance" and the doctor wouldn't be available. Finally they
could a bone guy who came in and cut it off. It hurt so much that it felt
good when they cut it off.
 
"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
> "Mike Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> EMT runs and emergency room reports are the U.S. equivalent of
>>> national health care in many areas. Many emergency rooms are not
>>> permitted to turn away a real case and one of the issues that I dealt
>>> with was a tendency for people in inner city Baltimore to use the
>>> emergency room rather than the health clinic (which raised expenses
>>> pretty much all the way around). So if you are talking about incidents
>>> requiring treatment, the e-room is a good barometer, at least in an
>>> urban setting.
>>
>> Actually NO emergency department in the US is allowed to turn away
>> anyone, at least without performing a "medical screening exam". To do
>> otherwise would be to violate the Federal law, the EMTALA. In fact, to
>> even ask for payment or discuss financial aspects prior to the MSE
>> violates EMTALA. It is, therefore, not much of a surprise that people use
>> the ED for routine health care not only in the inner city but all over
>> the country. It is probably the only business in the US were you can walk
>> in and spend thousands of dollars without any addressing of the cost
>> beforehand. I don't think that there would be any reason to think that ED
>> use is greater in countries with national health care, in fact I would
>> expect that ED use would be less there.
>
> Damn! I wish I knew that when I had my toe smashed by a lawnmower. I was
> in the emergency room for over an hour while they tried to find a doctor
> and you could hear them on the phone with plastic surgeons and says, "No
> he hasn't got any insurance" and the doctor wouldn't be available. Finally
> they could a bone guy who came in and cut it off. It hurt so much that it
> felt good when they cut it off.
>

Yes, this could have been an EMTALA violation which has large financial
penalties for the hospital as well as the individual physicians.

--
Mike Murray
 
Mike Murray wrote:
> I don't think that there would be any reason to
> think that ED use is greater in countries with national health care, in
> fact I would expect that ED use would be less there.

Would you expect ED use to be greater in states in the US that have larger
proportions of uninsured? I haven't been able to find anything online that
shows ED usage by state.
 
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