Some questions on interval training



SLG

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Feb 13, 2007
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Hi
I have been told that doing 2x20 intervals three times a week is good for improving time trialling, but if i started doing this now i feel that i would not be able to keep up my mileage (or the quality of my miles) due to the fatigue that this would cause.

My question is - how could i fit in three 2x20 interval sessions per week and still keep up the same mileage? Should i do one endurance day followed by an interval session? I currently do no interval training at all.

Also would it be reasonable to cut my 10 mile tt time, doing these intervals + 250 Kms / week, by 4 mins in one year? If not, how could i acheive this?

Sorry for long post!

SLG
 
SLG said:
...I have been told that doing 2x20 intervals three times a week is good for improving time trialling, but if i started doing this now i feel that i would not be able to keep up my mileage (or the quality of my miles) due to the fatigue that this would cause....
The question is, what would better lead you to your goals, raw mileage or focused aerobic training? That depends in part on what your goals are. From your post I assume time trials and perhaps road racing. If that's the case and you haven't been doing any type of interval work or focused threshold work then you'd likely benefit from sacrificing miles for some focused quality.

Mileage alone isn't a very good measure of your training load. You mention the fear of losing quality so that implies some sort of training focus already. How are you defining the quality in your riding, is it group rides, a big climb you like to do, a section of road where you like to push yourself a bit, hr zones....?

Doing 2x20 focused FTP or SST blocks is just a form of quality training. If working at your own personal threshold for 40 to 60 minutes a day leaves you too tired for normal training then I'd suggest your normal training is too slow. If for instance you work a pattern of 3 to 4 hour rides and you have to sacrifice one of them for threshold work then that's probably a very good tradeoff for improving your sustainable power.

Personally I like to put shorter more intense rides before longer less intense workouts in my training blocks. It lets you put out your best, most focused efforts when you're freshest and if you just do the focused work and cool down it leaves you in good shape to do an easier longer ride the following day. Greg Lemond was a big advocate of this sort of intensity before duration approach to weekly training and it really works. Every time you finish a workout you know you've just done the hardest ride of the week and the following workout will be easier and usually more enjoyable.

So if you're just introducing threshold blocks like 2x20s then I'd put them first in your training week following an active or complete rest day. Do the two(or three) efforts with rest between, cool down and call it a day. The next day would be easier and longer. Some folks like to put an SST or Tempo day before their FTP 2x20 day just to wake up the legs a bit. That's ok as long as you don't overly tire yourself out on the wake up day.

Anyway, chasing raw mileage can be a trap. If you avoid training at high aerobic intensities for fear of losing weekly mileage you run the very real risk of getting good at going long....but always doing it relatively slowly. Lots of folks can ride centuries and doubles on their several hundred miles a week of training but a lot of them would struggle with a quick road race or place poorly in an ITT due to lack of sustainable power. Don't ignore the power building just to keep the mileage up.

Good luck,
Dave
 
SLG said:
....Also would it be reasonable to cut my 10 mile tt time, doing these intervals + 250 Kms / week, by 4 mins in one year? If not, how could i acheive this?...
Where are you starting from? What's your current 10 mile TT time? How old are you, how many years have you been riding, are you riding a full aero setup or a stock road bike?

If you're currently riding your 10 mile TTs in half an hour then sure, cutting 4 minutes is a very reasonably goal. If you're riding them in 24 minutes then it's gonna be a lot tougher.
 
Thankyou for your lengthy reply dave. My PB for 10 miles is 27 mins exactly, on a rolling course. I'm 16, have a road bike with tri bars and this is only my first year of riding
 
SLG said:
Thankyou for your lengthy reply dave. My PB for 10 miles is 27 mins exactly, on a rolling course. I'm 16, have a road bike with tri bars and this is only my first year of riding
O.K. so you're shooting for 23 minutes. That's 26 mph average speed, fast but not an unreasonable goal, you have to go a bit faster than 26 mph to allow for the start and turnaround but 26 is still a good ballpark estimate.

For flat courses it's going to come down to power and aerodynamics. The big limiter for road bikes with clip on bars is the head tube height. You can generally only get the aero bars so low on a stock road bike. If you haven't already done so you can experiment with removing stem spacers and possibly flip your stem into a deeper drop for time trialing. I do that with clip on aero bars for my road bike and short of a really steep drop stem I've gotten about as low as I can go. Actually I just reset my road bike into normal stem position this morning after a big TT last week and a few weeks of training in the lower aero bar position. Speaking of which, you need to do some training in the aero bars. Don't just clip them on for the event. It takes some practice to ride them safely in a relaxed way and it takes time to get your muscles used to producing power from the aero position. I find the aero bars really work my hamstrings and adductors in ways that I never feel in hard road races or crits.

The other part of course is training for more sustainable power. Those 2x20 or 3x20 workouts are just the ticket for a ten mile TT. I probably wouldn't try to jump into the 3 sessions a week you asked about in your post but maybe start with one good FTP session per week and maybe a second a bit easier like SST work. The FTP session should feel pretty close to your 10 mile TT pace and the SST a bit easier but should still get you breathing deeply and should require focus.

I'd suggest starting at least one of your repeats on your FTP days as a mock TT start. You don't need a holder, just start with a foot on the ground in the same gear you hope to start your time trials. Work on finding the start pacing that allows you to settle into your best TT pace relatively quickly without feeling like you're going to blow. A lot of TTs are lost in the first few minutes since it's real easy to go too hard and then you'll have to back off to recover. Practice this on your FTP days until you find the best effort you can sustain for the whole 20 minutes. Personally I find I have to start in a fairly easy gear (like 53x21 or 53x19) for a flat TT to avoid starting too hard. I'll spin that out then shift up, spin the next cog out, etc. and try to hit race pace in the first minute but not the first 10 seconds. In training it's better to ride a bit slow then it is to blow up before the finish.

Anyway you may or may not reach your 23 minute goal in time for your target event, but doing at least one FTP session per week and ideally an SST session per week as well and working on your time trial starts, pacing and focus should bring that 27 minute time down substantially.

Good luck and let us know how the training and racing goes,
-Dave
 
I second Dave's advice. The races I train for are 5 and 10K TTs. My opinion is that for TTs 5-40K in length, and once in you're in shape with a good base, total training miles per week is not important. What is important is total "stress miles" per week. A stress mile is one that hurts, to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the type of workout.

After about four years of training, reading, and experimenting, my target is now 25-30 stress miles per week, and I have three one-week blocks.

Week #1 is devoted to four 7-mile intervals done at about 90-95% of max HR. In the cooler weather I might do two of these back-to-back (with about a five minute rest in between). In hot weather, just one of them per day. The rest of the days I may not ride at all, or possible just go out for a "joy ride."

Week #2 is devoted to twelve 2-mile intervals done at faster than race pace. Again, how many I do back-to-back depends on how hot it is. And again, on rest days I might not ride at all.

Week #3 is devoted to distance, where I do five 25-mile rides, and where a decent part of each ride is done under moderate discomfort.

I've been following this plan for about four months now, and I already have registered about a 20-watt power gain in my 7-mile intervals.

If anyone out there thinks I'm still missing some essential training elements for 5-10K TTs, please comment.
 
Pendejo said:
...If anyone out there thinks I'm still missing some essential training elements for 5-10K TTs, please comment.
I like your "stress miles" concept, an interesting way to think of workout quality. Are you really only riding 25 to 30 quality miles per week? How much time does that work out to per week when you include warmups, cooldowns and rests between efforts? When you talk about your 7 mile effort weeks it sounds like you don't ride much that week, am I reading that wrong?

I guess on first glance, unless I'm missing something it sounds like you're only riding a few days a week and not building much in terms of Chronic Training Load. I know you're targeting short specific events, but raising your CTL helps you train and recover better and is a good thing even for someone focused on shorter events. I remember a powerpoint presentation Andy gave which described training load for elite track pursuit riders. These are riders targeting a 4km event, that's only 2.5 miles and they still built a reasonable amount of CTL prior to their speed work as racing approached.

Off hand unless I'm missing something I'd suggest adding a few Tempo or SST rides to your training week. Tempo in particular is fun and fast but doesn't leave you too wiped out for focused hard training elsewhere in your training week. You should ride these for a bit longer blocks, say 30 to 45 minute efforts at a comfortably fast pace or something like 75% - 85% of your FTP since you mentioned power training. You don't need a lot of these for your target events, but how about interspersing one or two of these per week? I'm not suggesting a training load aimed at road racers or multi-day stage racers, just a bit of an increase in your regular training volume.

Your focus on intensity is good for your short events, but it still pays to build your overall training load in terms of being able to ride longer recover more quickly and to be able to train hard again sooner. As Andy says: "the more you train, the more you can train".

You mentioned a 20 watt increase, I take it you got a power meter. How is the TT training going overall, how do your split times and speeds look these days?
-Dave
P.S. The other implied part of this is that you ride at least 4 and preferably 5 times per week. Too much time off the bike each week and you're going through a series of mini detraining periods every week. Less than 4 days a week is not a good idea for a competitive cyclist. If you're doing less than 4 days per week (can't tell from your post but it sounds possible) then I'd definitely add an hour or two of Tempo or SST every few days to get you up to 4 or 5 days. These don't have to be killer long, even an hour and a half ride including 50 to 70 minutes of Tempo riding will do wonders for your training load. In the last few months nearly all of my big FTP gains have occured after a period of Tempo and SST riding, it really does seem to be magic in terms of bringing sustainable power up.
 
daveryanwyoming said:
I like your "stress miles" concept, an interesting way to think of workout quality. Are you really only riding 25 to 30 quality miles per week? How much time does that work out to per week when you include warmups, cooldowns and rests between efforts? When you talk about your 7 mile effort weeks it sounds like you don't ride much that week, am I reading that wrong?

I guess on first glance, unless I'm missing something it sounds like you're only riding a few days a week and not building much in terms of Chronic Training Load. I know you're targeting short specific events, but raising your CTL helps you train and recover better and is a good thing even for someone focused on shorter events. I remember a powerpoint presentation Andy gave which described training load for elite track pursuit riders. These are riders targeting a 4km event, that's only 2.5 miles and they still built a reasonable amount of CTL prior to their speed work as racing approached.

Off hand unless I'm missing something I'd suggest adding a few Tempo or SST rides to your training week. Tempo in particular is fun and fast but doesn't leave you too wiped out for focused hard training elsewhere in your training week. You should ride these for a bit longer blocks, say 30 to 45 minute efforts at a comfortably fast pace or something like 75% - 85% of your FTP since you mentioned power training. You don't need a lot of these for your target events, but how about interspersing one or two of these per week? I'm not suggesting a training load aimed at road racers or multi-day stage racers, just a bit of an increase in your regular training volume.

Your focus on intensity is good for your short events, but it still pays to build your overall training load in terms of being able to ride longer recover more quickly and to be able to train hard again sooner. As Andy says: "the more you train, the more you can train".

You mentioned a 20 watt increase, I take it you got a power meter. How is the TT training going overall, how do your split times and speeds look these days?
-Dave
P.S. The other implied part of this is that you ride at least 4 and preferably 5 times per week. Too much time off the bike each week and you're going through a series of mini detraining periods every week. Less than 4 days a week is not a good idea for a competitive cyclist. If you're doing less than 4 days per week (can't tell from your post but it sounds possible) then I'd definitely add an hour or two of Tempo or SST every few days to get you up to 4 or 5 days. These don't have to be killer long, even an hour and a half ride including 50 to 70 minutes of Tempo riding will do wonders for your training load. In the last few months nearly all of my big FTP gains have occured after a period of Tempo and SST riding, it really does seem to be magic in terms of bringing sustainable power up.
**

Thanks for the reply, Dave. Yes, I only do 25-30 "stress miles" per week. And I would say I'm out there, on average, five days per week. Here in Florida during the summer the rain (= lightning) can play havoc with a schedule. If I'm unable to reach my stress mile goal in a week, I just stretch the week until I do, and then start on the next block.

You also asked about total mileage, for example, for one of my 7-mile interval weeks. Because of the heat this summer, I've been doing only one such interval per day, and try to get four such days in during the week. That's 28 miles. It's a 4-mile warmup ride out to my interval road, and the same 4-mile cooldown to get home. So the total miles for that day is 15 miles. Four days like that = 60 total miles. I might throw an easy ride in on another day, but usually not. The week where I do the 2-mile intervals probably totals a bit more, but the non-stress miles are just junk anyway.

I don't think I buy into the CTL concept if it includes miles that don't hurt, because I just don't feel that those kind of miles have any kind of training effect relevant to the shorter TTs. (I grant you that going out for 3-4 hours of 18-20 mph cruising provides physical stress and a training effect, but one which I think is only relevant for races or TTs of an hour or more.)

I don't ride with a HR or powermeter. However, several times a month I train on a stationary bike at the gym that has those things. I'm not sure how accurate the power meter is on it, but that doesn't much matter - the important thing is comparisons over time. And the 20 watt improvement I mentioned is for a 20-minute interval at about 90-95% max HR.

As long as I'm getting my weekly goal of stress miles in, taking two or even three days off in that week doesn't "scare" me at all. I suppose it's one of the signs of getting older (along with reading glasses!), but I've come to believe that as long as one is hammering hard every other day or so, a rest day in between is probably more valuable than pushing one's self on those days.

You also suggested adding a few 30-45 minute comfortably fast rides, but my 25-mile rides do serve that function.

And you asked about my split times, TT times, etc. I don't race again until November, and given the variability of the outdoor conditions here (strong winds especially) it's hard for me to compare. The watt improvement on the indoor trainer is my hard evidence at this point. In December I have the state finals, and that's where I'll be competing against the usual pecking order - and that, I think, is what will tell the story.

Anyway, I don't claim to have any expert knowledge here. But I do feel intuitively that I've finally assembled the training tools that will continue to help me improve, and to do so in a time-efficient manner. So far, so good. But if you see no more posts from me after December, please send your donations to the Suicide Prevention Hotline.
 
Pendejo said:
....I don't think I buy into the CTL concept if it includes miles that don't hurt, because I just don't feel that those kind of miles have any kind of training effect relevant to the shorter TTs. ...
Well there's a lot of exercise physiologists that feel differently, but it's your season.
 
daveryanwyoming said:
Well there's a lot of exercise physiologists that feel differently, but it's your season.
Hey Dave,

Not to hijack this thread, but I wanted to ask you a question about a comment I recall you making in another thread. To paraphrase, you mentioned that you like to work at a certain FTP at initially 2x20min, and then gradually extend the interval time at the wattage to 30, 40, 50 and even 60 mins before you move up to a higher wattage.

I've also found pretty good gains by extending time at a wattage rather than immediately moving on to the next wattage target.

My question to you is, when moving up in time, how do you balance the total training time at that wattage. In other words, when you start at wattage X for 2x20min, you train for 40 mins. When bumping up to 30 mins, you probably won't be in a position to do 2x30min. Do you just do one 30 min interval, figuring that extending continuous time at wattage X (30 min vs. 20 mins) will make up for the ten minute less total interval time? Once you reach 40 mins, it all equals out (unless you were doing 3x20s).

Appreciate any insight you could lend.
 
if youre aiming for a 23 minute time, then 20 minute efforts in training are not what you should be doing. the times are too close together, you see? you wouldnt train for a road race by riding the course 5 times a week for a year. each different sort of strength needs to be built up in isolation.

for a 23-minute effort, i would recommend mostly 10-15 minute intervals in training. this will help you raise your intensity far more quickly than you would with 20 minute efforts. however, one longer interval during the week would help you (mentally, rather than physically, i find) develop the extra staying power required for the remaining 8-13 minutes.

i would also practice standing starts. a few weeks ago i won an 8k tt by 8 seconds, the guy in 2nd started right ahead of me, and i could tell i gained at least 50% of the 8 seconds in the opening 300 meters. a good start not only means picking up vital seconds at the beginning, but allows you to settle down into a far smoother first kilometer in general.
 
Columbia said:
if youre aiming for a 23 minute time, then 20 minute efforts in training are not what you should be doing. the times are too close together, you see? you wouldnt train for a road race by riding the course 5 times a week for a year. each different sort of strength needs to be built up in isolation.

This isn't strictly true. The primary determinant of performance in a 23 minute TT is lactate threshold/functional threshold power (roughly equivalent physiological adaptions go into these). LT/FTP will be increased by 2X20's, longer tempo rides, one hour TT's, etc. The best performers in 20 minute TT's are often the best performers in 1 hour TT's.

If you aim to peak for a 20ish minute event, you will need to work other energy systems too, but 2X20's, 3X20's, tempo, etc, will all help your performance and probably constitute an optimal thing to train if you have a long term perspective.
 
Roadie_scum said:
This isn't strictly true. The primary determinant of performance in a 23 minute TT is lactate threshold/functional threshold power (roughly equivalent physiological adaptions go into these). LT/FTP will be increased by 2X20's, longer tempo rides, one hour TT's, etc. The best performers in 20 minute TT's are often the best performers in 1 hour TT's.

If you aim to peak for a 20ish minute event, you will need to work other energy systems too, but 2X20's, 3X20's, tempo, etc, will all help your performance and probably constitute an optimal thing to train if you have a long term perspective.

we'll have to agree to disagree on this... i never prepare for a big time trial by riding intervals close to the full distance of the thing. the shorter intervals (for me anyway, i absolutely cannot speak for anyone else) increase resistance to lactic acid build up, which in turn will raise functional threshold. in my younger days i did once prepare for a 16k tt by riding 3 of them every week, and my times improved very little. these days i never do an interval more than 12 minutes in length, but on a standard road bike i do 10 miles in around 22 minutes
 
Columbia said:
we'll have to agree to disagree on this... i never prepare for a big time trial by riding intervals close to the full distance of the thing. the shorter intervals (for me anyway, i absolutely cannot speak for anyone else) increase resistance to lactic acid build up, which in turn will raise functional threshold. in my younger days i did once prepare for a 16k tt by riding 3 of them every week, and my times improved very little. these days i never do an interval more than 12 minutes in length, but on a standard road bike i do 10 miles in around 22 minutes

It depends what you mean by prepare. If you are 6-8 weeks out, have a solid aerobic foundation, and don't cut out all sustainable aerobic work, you are on the money with shorter intervals. If you are taking a season long perspective, where all you do are short TT's, it won't work to train exclusively at these very high intensities. You will max out your gains, then burn out. If you don't have a good aerobic foundation, you will improve quickly but not reach anywhere near the level you could if you took a longer term approach.

However, if you are talking about the immediate leadup to a peak event (less than two months) then definitely, go wild with shorter intervals. And it isn't to say that shorter intervals don't have a place for most of the year - just that the focus should be on developing FTP, which (generally) requires longer intervals, at least at first.