Squats versus presses

[HughM]

Lamentably, the only gym I have ready access to does not have a squat rack. I am thus restricted to the leg press machine for that particular aspect of my strength workout. My questions are these: how does this method compare to squats, and; is there a freeweight-based excercise that, added to presses, yields the benefits of traditional squats?

 

[BanditManDan]

Lamentably, the only gym I have ready access to does not have a squat rack. I am thus restricted to the leg press machine for that particular aspect of my strength workout. My questions are these: how does this method compare to squats, and; is there a freeweight-based excercise that, added to presses, yields the benefits of traditional squats?

Free weight squats are the traditional squats. People forget that gyms (Bally's, LA Fitness, ....) have only been popular for the past 20 years or so. Before that most people just worked out with free weights.

Many people (myself included) consider free weights to be a better workout anyway. The machines are designed to be more convenient and safer but they don't necessarily give you a better workout.

 

[Duckwah]

Do one legged squats instead.

Machine leg presses are an enormous waste of time.

You could also do front squats or zerchers and deadlift.

 

[NJK]

Lamentably, the only gym I have ready access to does not have a squat rack. I am thus restricted to the leg press machine for that particular aspect of my strength workout. My questions are these: how does this method compare to squats, and; is there a freeweight-based excercise that, added to presses, yields the benefits of traditional squats?

It depends what type of leg press machine you are using, is it a lying down or a sitting upright machine. the lying down is preferable because there is less pressure on the lower back. You could do lunges, get instruction on these because technique is important and difficult to explain on the internet.

 

[ed073]

45 degree leg press is inferior to BB squats, but if that's all you've got, there's no reason not to use it.
For leg hypertrophy and strength gains, I'd suggest:
leg-press
stiff-legged BB deadlift
standing (or donkey) calf raises
seated calf raises
hamstring curls
seated leg extension (optional....potential for high torque and shearing load on the knees)

good luck!

 

[Orange Fish]

Lamentably, the only gym I have ready access to does not have a squat rack. I am thus restricted to the leg press machine for that particular aspect of my strength workout. My questions are these: how does this method compare to squats, and; is there a freeweight-based excercise that, added to presses, yields the benefits of traditional squats?

I'd go with lunges. I like those because you can get a great burn going and get some good strength workouts depending on how much weight you use.

 

[ed073]

I'd go with lunges. I like those because you can get a great burn going and get some good strength workouts depending on how much weight you use.

Great exercise. Often overlooked.

 

[donhix1]

Great exercise. Often overlooked.

I like lunges or squats because there is more balance involve so you use more muscles.
It is important to have good form with these exercises as there is also a higher chance of getting hurt.

 

[ed073]

I like lunges or squats because there is more balance involve so you use more muscles.
It is important to have good form with these exercises as there is also a higher chance of getting hurt.

The dude who started this thread can't squat......no rack.

 

[velomanct]

my own experience with squats and leg presses is that squats take more out of me, overall. I get really out of breath during squats. I almost feel like I can't maximally fatigue my quads with squats - my back and other muscles hurt more. (i go down to legs parallel to floor)
With the leg press I can focus all my energy into working just the quads.
Right now I am at 175lbs for sets of 10 reps. Been squating for about 2 months now.
Leg press, I don't have one. I used to go to a gym 2 years ago for that.
With free weights, I feel it is a lot harder to go until failure.
BTW, I also do step ups, deadlifts and calf raises, and stiff leg DLs.

 

[Shannon Hooge]

velomanct....my back and other muscles hurt more. (i go down to legs parallel to floor)

Hi,
I'm no expert in excercise physiology, but you should probably decrease your squat weight until your entire body can do the exercise without pain. One of the benefits of squats (or any other free weights exercise over machines) is that your core strength is also built at the same time. Thus, your legs can handle 175, and I bet if you sat down at the leg press machine you could do that and more, but your back isn't ready for 175. The reason I stopped machine weights is because they do isolate muscles, but too much. I'd say, if you want better over all conditioning, do the free weights, if you want to tone/define/bodybuild, then go for machine weights (although that can be done with free weights also.)

In example, I submit the following: I have never been able to bench press a lot, and certainly never my body weight, but my mom owned about 2500 books, and we moved at least 10 times when I was in jr. high and high school. To this day, I can lift refrigerators and washers and driers like no big deal, because all those freeweights (aka. books in boxes) strengthened my core.

Peace,
Shannon

 

[Felt_Rider]

Disclaimer - my comments are only a comparison and not implied toward training regarding cyclist.

A comparison between the two exercises:

1. Range of Motion - leg press range of motion is limited compared to squats. IMO that is one of the primary concerns.
2. Core Strength - as mentioned leg press isolates the lower body, whereas, squats will strengthen most of the stablilzing muscles (abs & back).

I would not say that leg presses are totally useless. I would not suggest going over to the musclemayhem forum and making that suggestion to the bodybuilders and powerlifters. I am not saying they are useful in higher level cycling training, but leg press is used as a supplemental exercise in some strength or bodybuilding training.

Even though the range of motion is limited it is better than nothing and you can use it to build strength since you have a limited amount of equipment. I use leg press to warm up for squats or as a finishing exercise after squats or sometimes as a primary exercise if I have a minor low back injury.

That was my case this past Wednesday. I tweaked my low back doing stiff leg deadlifts on Tuesday so I skipped squats the next day.

I changed up and the following was my leg routine this week. I considered this my light week because of the injury.

plate = 45 lbs and are the total count of plates used.

leg extensions (warm up) - 5 sets

leg press 45 degree
6 plates x 10 reps (warm up)
8 plates x 10 reps (warm up)
12 plates x 10 reps
14 plates x 10 reps
14 plates x 10 reps

horizontal leg press (5 seconds of rest between sets)
60 lbs x 20 reps
60 lbs x 20 reps
60 lbs x 20 reps

lying down leg curls
50 lbs. to failure
60 lbs. to failure
70 lbs. to failure

seated leg curls (Hammer Strength)
45 lbs plate to failure
45 lbs plate to failure
45 lbs plate to failure

Others have suggested other type of leg exercises that are also good.
Sometime one has to get a little creative if there is a lack of equipment.

My current gym is lacking a hack squat machine which is my absolute favorite for legs. I keep hoping that they get one and I have not been shy in approaching the owner to get one.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

I would have to agree with Felt_Rider in that 45 degree leg presses aren't useless as some have claimed. Since I have a bad lower back, I've been able to stimulate the quads very well with 45 degree leg presses. I've actually come to prefer them over squats as I am able to concentrate on quads better and I don't feel the compression on my spine.

One of my favorite leg routines is as follows:
Thigh Extensions: 5 - 8 sets, 12 to as high as 20 reps per set
(I perform these with fairly light weights with little rest between sets so as not to strain the knees and still pre-exhaust the quads)
45 degree leg presses: 5 - 8 sets, 12 to as high as 20 reps per set
Lying Leg Curls: 5 - 8 sets, 12 - 15 reps

Exercises such as hack squats and lunges hurt my knees or I would be doing lunges now.

Keep in mind that I don't train with heavier weights as does Felt_Rider. For one thing, I'm too much of a wuss! And I have found that my legs respond well to higher reps and a quick pace without going heavy.

Also, keep in mind that I haven't been in good enough condition to handle a routine like this in a few years. If I were to do this today I'd have to be hauled out on a stretcher and the DOMS would be unbearable! Hopefully that will change at some point in the future but right now I'm enjoying the cycling too much to switch emphasis to weight training.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Keep in mind that I don't train with heavier weights as does Felt_Rider. For one thing, I'm too much of a wuss! And I have found that my legs respond well to higher reps and a quick pace without going heavy.

I may be able to squat & leg press a good amount, but 98% of the people on this board can ride circles around me.

 

[Carrera]

You should get all the leg strength you need from cycling - with some hill work thrown in. Serious, specialist cyclists usually do their weights in the off season, mainly to compensate any lost muscle mass in the season itself.
It's perfectly true I personally do my weights and cycling together throughout the year but I'm not a competition rider - just a keep fit enthusiast.
However, if you're seeking a free weight exercise you could do barbell hacks or straddle squats. Few people even know what these are.
Barbell Hacks: Pick up the barbell and lift it up behind your back so the bar is squeezed against the back of your upper legs. Imagine a deadlift in reverse. Once you have the bar steady, squat down for just over a quarter rep and knock out the reps. You have to keep the head looking up.
Straddle squats are like deadlifts but you straddle the bar, one foot each side and then liff with a straight back, using the legs.

Lamentably, the only gym I have ready access to does not have a squat rack. I am thus restricted to the leg press machine for that particular aspect of my strength workout. My questions are these: how does this method compare to squats, and; is there a freeweight-based excercise that, added to presses, yields the benefits of traditional squats?

 

[Carrera]

Doc, have you ever gone up to 30 reps on your squats? These days I do just that and it makes your breathe pretty damned hard. I did a few sets with a competiton runner and was surprised how breathless he was as opposed to myself. He needed some 4 minutes to get his breathing controlled.
A friend of mine who trained with Serge Nubret once did 55 reps deep squats.

I would have to agree with Felt_Rider in that 45 degree leg presses aren't useless as some have claimed. Since I have a bad lower back, I've been able to stimulate the quads very well with 45 degree leg presses. I've actually come to prefer them over squats as I am able to concentrate on quads better and I don't feel the compression on my spine.

One of my favorite leg routines is as follows:
Thigh Extensions: 5 - 8 sets, 12 to as high as 20 reps per set
(I perform these with fairly light weights with little rest between sets so as not to strain the knees and still pre-exhaust the quads)
45 degree leg presses: 5 - 8 sets, 12 to as high as 20 reps per set
Lying Leg Curls: 5 - 8 sets, 12 - 15 reps

Exercises such as hack squats and lunges hurt my knees or I would be doing lunges now.

Keep in mind that I don't train with heavier weights as does Felt_Rider. For one thing, I'm too much of a wuss! And I have found that my legs respond well to higher reps and a quick pace without going heavy.

Also, keep in mind that I haven't been in good enough condition to handle a routine like this in a few years. If I were to do this today I'd have to be hauled out on a stretcher and the DOMS would be unbearable! Hopefully that will change at some point in the future but right now I'm enjoying the cycling too much to switch emphasis to weight training.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

Doc, have you ever gone up to 30 reps on your squats? These days I do just that and it makes your breathe pretty damned hard. I did a few sets with a competiton runner and was surprised how breathless he was as opposed to myself. He needed some 4 minutes to get his breathing controlled.
A friend of mine who trained with Serge Nubret once did 55 reps deep squats.

LOL! No, I can't say I've ever done 30 rep squats. I've done sets of 20 though and that was pretty rough. I seem to remember Tom Platz was doing 10 minutes straight worth of squats when he was getting ready for the Olympia.

I can't use much weight these days anyway as I've lost so much strength in my old age. The last squat routine I did was about two months ago and I did 5 sets of 15 with an 85 lb bar in my living room. I was sore for a week!

I'm sure after a few months of steady training I could work up to 125 and maybe even 150 lbs without feeling any compression on my spine. However, the 300+ lb stuff is right out! I'll never be able to lift like that again. The odd thing is, my quads are about the same size now as when I was doing those heavy squats and most of my leg exercise centers around riding and not lifting! But I'm certainly not as strong anymore.

 

[Carrera]

I can still squat heavy in mortal fear. And I mean "fear". Even 200 lbs is frightening if you've been told you have a hernia.
I wouldn't give up on your joints, though. I had severe spinal pain for over a year due to my heavy days and the fact I'm getting older but I nursed my back to stability. I especially believe in glucosamine and cod liver oil.
But, true. My days of squatting 350 without even a belt are gone. I think common sense dictates I should now get into cycling and be satisfied that I paid my dues in the past and it's time to respect my limitations. Cycling is a far better way to keep in shape as you hit your forties.

LOL! No, I can't say I've ever done 30 rep squats. I've done sets of 20 though and that was pretty rough. I seem to remember Tom Platz was doing 10 minutes straight worth of squats when he was getting ready for the Olympia.

I can't use much weight these days anyway as I've lost so much strength in my old age. The last squat routine I did was about two months ago and I did 5 sets of 15 with an 85 lb bar in my living room. I was sore for a week!

I'm sure after a few months of steady training I could work up to 125 and maybe even 150 lbs without feeling any compression on my spine. However, the 300+ lb stuff is right out! I'll never be able to lift like that again. The odd thing is, my quads are about the same size now as when I was doing those heavy squats and most of my leg exercise centers around riding and not lifting! But I'm certainly not as strong anymore.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

I can still squat heavy in mortal fear. And I mean "fear". Even 200 lbs is frightening if you've been told you have a hernia.
I wouldn't give up on your joints, though. I had severe spinal pain for over a year due to my heavy days and the fact I'm getting older but I nursed my back to stability. I especially believe in glucosamine and cod liver oil.
But, true. My days of squatting 350 without even a belt are gone. I think common sense dictates I should now get into cycling and be satisfied that I paid my dues in the past and it's time to respect my limitations. Cycling is a far better way to keep in shape as you hit your forties.

Yes, I would imagine that hernia would shed new light on things. I've read through the "dreaded hernia" thread and it seems it will be a simple operation with a fast recovery. A few days to a few weeks away from exercise is nothing to get something like that patched up. Well worth the down time in my book.

I agree that at our age we're not going to be setting any new records or persoal bests unless we are willing to 'roid up like Larry Pacifico or something. Not willing to myself, although a low dose regimen to assist in recovery is tempting.

I've just started lifting weights again this week for the second time since summer. Caught both cold and flu bugs shortly after the last time I started, which seems to be a reoccuring theme with me. I tend to attack the weights as I did when I was younger - albeit with lighter poundages - and my immune system always rebels. Every time I start a weight program I end up with a cold. The cycling doesn't seem to have that affect fortunately.

Am just now ready to do some easy easy lifting routines which will mostly emphasize core, rotary cuff and arms. I would still like to have some 20" guns! I'm not going to include any chest or frontal delt work since they are what seem to aggrivate my left shoulder. I can train lats, rear delts, rotary cuff and traps without a hitch ... except for my own intrinsic weaknesses that is.

I'll be sure to give that glucosamine and cod liver oil a try and see if that helps.

 

[donhix1]

Going another direction, Chris Carmichael suggested that if you are short on time it is better to do strength training work on the bike. One of the exercises is finding a hill pick a gear that is about 40-50 rpm and then go all out while you are seated.
Another is on the flats. Roll along at 15 MPH in a big gear (53-13 or whatever is tough) then go all out seated for 15-30 seconds, I think they call them stomps.