The cyclists training bible. Joe friel.

[credit_agro]

Do the hill climb test hard and give it some gas for the last few hundred metres - you'll find out soon enough what your MHR is!!

Ok, but if I go anaerobic for the last few hundred yards or full power for last ten seconds or so will I be accurate? Would it not be more accurate if I just kept it at FTP for the whole thing thus creating a test with similiar variables each time? I know in a race you will often go aneraobic or full power (sprint for example). Or should I have the course worked out to a tee that I must be anaerobic at this point (tree as a landmark for example) and if im feeling strong maybe go anaerobic 5 seconds before the tree to improve my time and work up from this.

Basically, what im saying is whats the best way to test myself while keeping the test within a framework so my results reflect the reality of my fitness more?

Also, when you say I could go for 10mins over FTP wouldn't this be anaerobic for 10mins? The book points out that it is a bad idea for the first 1 or 2 years to do anaerobic endurance training as you need to be very fit and can easily get injured. Whats your opinion on this?

 

[wiredued]

I'm interested to get the details on this jump in power you experienced. Are you saying this was from L2 endurance training? What was your FTP at the start? What was it after the 17% rise? How many months did that take? Thanks

* Earlier this season my FTP lifted by 17% without doing any specific L4 work.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I'm interested to get the details on this jump in power you experienced. Are you saying this was from L2 endurance training? What was your FTP at the start? What was it after the 17% rise? How many months did that take? Thanks

Be careful how you read Alex's post. He probably means that he didn't do any L4 specific work because he was working L5-L7 in preparation for crits and track events. It is well established that short duration, high-intensity efforts result in improvements in VO2MAX and FTP (e.g., see this study http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2001/acsms/papers/LAUR.pdf). But, this begs the question, "Are short duration, high-intensity intervals the best way to increase FTP?" The answer to that question appears to be no. With the exception of NM, high-intensity efforts (at least L4+) result in spillover benefits to the entire MP/duration curve.

 

[wiredued]

Hoping it was L2 was just wishful thinking.... I am still interested in the details because 17% is a big increase and might be a good peaking regimen just before my club ride debut next year if my lower back can handle L5 through L7 training.

Be careful how you read Alex's post. He probably means that he didn't do any L4 specific work because he was working L5-L7 in preparation for crits and track events. It is well established that short duration, high-intensity efforts result in improvements in VO2MAX and FTP (e.g., see this study http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2001/acsms/papers/LAUR.pdf). But, this begs the question, "Are short duration, high-intensity intervals the best way to increase FTP?" The answer to that question appears to be no. With the exception of NM, high-intensity efforts (at least L4+) result in spillover benefits to the entire MP/duration curve.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Hoping it was L2 was just wishful thinking.... I am still interested in the details because 17% is a big increase and might be a good peaking regimen just before my club ride debut next year if my lower back can handle L5 through L7 training.

Actually, I think Alex can give you a detailed look at his training by level because he has a new tool that parses his ride files by level. He has developed some cool charts to go along with the data. So, you can see his TSS by level and the usual metrics from Performance Manager. I look forward to seeing his response.

 

[credit_agro]

Be careful how you read Alex's post. He probably means that he didn't do any L4 specific work because he was working L5-L7 in preparation for crits and track events. It is well established that short duration, high-intensity efforts result in improvements in VO2MAX and FTP (e.g., see this study http://www.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2001/acsms/papers/LAUR.pdf). But, this begs the question, "Are short duration, high-intensity intervals the best way to increase FTP?" The answer to that question appears to be no. With the exception of NM, high-intensity efforts (at least L4+) result in spillover benefits to the entire MP/duration curve.

hmmm, he did say it in the context though of me seeing gains in FTP time trial tests after only really having endurance training done.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

This is base1!!! Endurance phase

Heres an example of build2. Here the high intensity workouts will be based on muscular endurance and hill cimbing.

Build2
Monday: Recovery
Tuesday: Low dur, High intens (1hr)
Wednesday: High dur, low intens (3hr)
Thursday: High intens, low duration (1hr)
Friday: Low intens, low dur (1hr)
Saturday: High intensity, high duration (3hr)
Sunday: High dur, low intens (3hr)

Credit,
You've got to realize that not everyone buys into the need for early season low intensity mileage prior to more specific work near your threshold intensity. In other words there's lots of folks here that don't buy into Friel's classic training models which I believe was part of your original question.

As a self confessed newcomer to serious cycling, I'd take Alex's advice to get a lot of miles and work on your bike handling and group riding skills. In terms of specific intensities and durations you can go by Friel or subscribe to the Sweet Spot Training (SST) group who don't take as much time off the bike between seasons and skip the low end base work.

Either way, your schedules use terms like Low Intensity, High Intensity. Those are pretty darn vague. High Intensity could be anything from a one hour time trial at your highest sustainable pace (another definition for Functional Threshold Power(FTP) or L4) to 4 minute hard as you can do them interval repeats (VO2 max or L5 work) all the way to 15 second top speed sprints and standing starts (NeuroMuscular Power work or L7). Anyway whether you subscribe to Friel or Hunter/Coggan and the power folks it helps to define your intensities in a measurable, repeatable way which both helps you to perform them and helps when discussing them.

FWIW I think Friel provides a good solid framework for traditional training and really helps in terms of providing a methodology for yearly planning. Having said that my own cycling fitness has improved dramatically through power training and in particular early season SST work instead of extended low intensity base miles. So I use Friel loosely for structuring a yearly plan, I use his 3-on, 1-off mesocycle planning, use his taper methodology, use his method of defining A, B, and C races and training and or tapering accordingly but I don't subscribe to his weight program nor his winter base work literally. If I recall correctly he also has disclaimers about using his programs without a year or more of training experience. I'm working from memory here but could swear I read a warning about using his plan as a beginner.

Anyway set up that coaching if it's in the budget. Just don't be surprised if you get feedback from this forum and elsewhere that doesn't support the Long Slow Distance (LSD) approach to winter training. It's one method with a long history, but not the only approach.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[blkhotrod]

I think your base training is all about trying to sustain certain wattage or power intensity which is close to or near your typical targeted event lenght and average power requirement.

.........in December for your "A" race in August. At least you'll be the fastest guy sitting on the sidelines, been there done that.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Actually, I think Alex can give you a detailed look at his training by level because he has a new tool that parses his ride files by level. He has developed some cool charts to go along with the data. So, you can see his TSS by level and the usual metrics from Performance Manager. I look forward to seeing his response.

I'm in trouble now I better get the link again RD and put the new version through its paces.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I'm in trouble now I better get the link again RD and put the new version through its paces.

Good. It needs to be run hard and put away wet.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Ok, but if I go anaerobic for the last few hundred yards or full power for last ten seconds or so will I be accurate? Would it not be more accurate if I just kept it at FTP for the whole thing thus creating a test with similiar variables each time? I know in a race you will often go aneraobic or full power (sprint for example). Or should I have the course worked out to a tee that I must be anaerobic at this point (tree as a landmark for example) and if im feeling strong maybe go anaerobic 5 seconds before the tree to improve my time and work up from this.

Basically, what im saying is whats the best way to test myself while keeping the test within a framework so my results reflect the reality of my fitness more?

Also, when you say I could go for 10mins over FTP wouldn't this be anaerobic for 10mins? The book points out that it is a bad idea for the first 1 or 2 years to do anaerobic endurance training as you need to be very fit and can easily get injured. Whats your opinion on this?

Don't worry too much about the detail - just get up that hill as quick as you can, using whatever capacities you have. It's relatively short and will test the various components of your fitness at once. (I am assuming you are not training with a power meter and are healthy enough to do strenuous exercise).

I recommend it because many of us can find at least one sheltered hill around 10 min long ('cept maybe Frenchyge). Then do it at regular intervals in season and the same time next year and see how much you've improved season to season. 5-6 years from now when you're making others suffer in races, you'll go back to that hill, have a crack and have a really good marker of how far you've come.

Dedicated AC training is pretty hideous stuff (often invoking a nauseous response) so in that sense Friel is right - not something for the uninitiated. In reality, you will get AC work in your training anyway - especially if you do some group rides where the pace heats up over short rises or you start to do some racing. So you will be working on it without realising it.

When you start to understand more about the various components of fitness (esp thru using a power meter - either on bike or on an ergo) then you can break it down more, understand your own power profile and work out what are your relative strengths and limiters vs your target events.

I can feel another "it's killing me" thread coming on here....

kerchink - that's another 2 euro

 

[Alex Simmons]

Hoping it was L2 was just wishful thinking.... I am still interested in the details because 17% is a big increase and might be a good peaking regimen just before my club ride debut next year if my lower back can handle L5 through L7 training.

Rap is right - the point I was making is that I wasn't doing "specific" L4 work but was still getting intensity via other less structured means (like occasional racing). Having said that, the bulk of my time back then was spent in sub L4 aerobic endurance levels yet my FTP (well my 16km/10mile TT power actually - which is a pretty solid indicator of FTP) increased significantly.

The OP will do well to simply get miles/time on the bike as long as they are not "tooling around" miles (which can easily happen with too much bunch riding). I'd certainly recommend a large proportion of solo or small group riding to ensure the effort level is genuinely L2/3.

What works for me may not work for you though. My next phase will involve some dedicted FTP work.

When I do some better analysis with Rap's tool, I do up an item or two for the blog - I'll be sure to let people know. I did intro some samples in a thread titled "Parsing Time". But have since recognised the schema I used was prob a bit misleading - hence when I do the next set of analysis, it will show the components of training in their correct context.

 

[whoawhoa]

Hoping it was L2 was just wishful thinking.... I

What's with all the L2 bashing? Not picking on you, wiredued, but it seems like some on this forum have swung too far over to the "intensity only" side. I mean, lots of l2 is definitely not the most efficient way to train, but it still causes training adaptation. You can go pretty fast on l2 if you do enough of it. I'm ripping the cranks off right now after my first couple of "big" rides since august.

 

[acoggan]

many of us can find at least one sheltered hill around 10 min long

Over the years, I've lived in:

Goshen, IN
Muncie, IN
Austin, TX
St. Louis, MO
Columbus, OH
Galveston, TX
Baltimore, MD

Only in Maryland was there a hill that took more than a couple of minutes to climb, and even that one required a couple of hour's of riding to reach.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Over the years, I've lived in:

Goshen, IN
Muncie, IN
Austin, TX
St. Louis, MO
Columbus, OH
Galveston, TX
Baltimore, MD

Only in Maryland was there a hill that took more than a couple of minutes to climb, and even that one required a couple of hour's of riding to reach.

OK, you got me, many, not all

In that case a TT effort on a standard course when conditions are similar will suffice. But nothin' beats having PM, right?

Oh - except having a good coach who knows how coach with one.

Sounds like OP is lucky to have a hill to use though....

 

[wiredued]

Well I guess if you're like Alex and you don't consider racing to be an intense workout then L2 training will raise your FTP just fine. Maybe there are some people benefiting from L2 but if you are just starting out shouldn't you find your FTP limit before spending time on anything so time consuming as L2? By the way what is your L2 regimen?

What's with all the L2 bashing? Not picking on you, wiredued, but it seems like some on this forum have swung too far over to the "intensity only" side. I mean, lots of l2 is definitely not the most efficient way to train, but it still causes training adaptation. You can go pretty fast on l2 if you do enough of it. I'm ripping the cranks off right now after my first couple of "big" rides since august.

 

[whoawhoa]

Maybe there are some people benefitting from L2 but if you are just starting out shouldn't you find your FTP limit before spending time on anything so time consuming as L2?

What do you mean by "FTP limit?"

By the way what is your L2 regimen?

Ride lots.

Seriously, right now I'm doing a "big" ride saturday (currentl ~4 hrs, soon will be 5+) then a bit shorter on sunday. total weekend tss is 350 roughly, this will increase to >400 tss soon. No l2 during the week, it's all 1.5-2 hr l3/l4 rides. CTL is up 6 points in the past week and I'm already riding much better.

 

[BlueJersey]

I doubt it. In fact, the idea of base training is to try to ride the lenght of your typical event. That's why Tour riders spend 5 to 6 hours a day riding because that's how long each stage is. Back in the Dark Age of HRM, no one knew how much the effort and power requirement of a typical even lenght. If you train with a power meter, this time of the year is all about SST. I don't need to fool around with Endurance ride at endurance pace since I have been racing for 3 years. I have enough miles under my legs to take the next step of training. Of course, one can peak more than once is a season...

.........in December for your "A" race in August. At least you'll be the fastest guy sitting on the sidelines, been there done that.

 

[wiredued]

I mean when hour power stops going up it is time to work on other areas. But if you are at FT 2.5 watts per kg and it is the beginning of winter then you need to work on that first.

What do you mean by "FTP limit?"

 

[wiredued]

I did something similar to that last year my average Saturday ride was 75 miles and I did intervals twice during the week ussually 7x2 or 5x4 all I got out of it was a low resting heart rate 48bpm and 10 watts improvement on a 30 minute climb every six months of training. Doing 3x20s at 91% I got 13 watts in one month.

What do you mean by "FTP limit?"



Ride lots.

Seriously, right now I'm doing a "big" ride saturday (currentl ~4 hrs, soon will be 5+) then a bit shorter on sunday. total weekend tss is 350 roughly, this will increase to >400 tss soon. No l2 during the week, it's all 1.5-2 hr l3/l4 rides. CTL is up 6 points in the past week and I'm already riding much better.