The Greatest



Status
Not open for further replies.
i'm in a damn good mood so i'll respond to whomever it is that is not supposed to be associating with me via their own incognito public display of stupid with this little diddy now that they are non stop constantly tugging on my red cape

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GEd0_PviyM[/ame]
 
I stated I will not be associated in any more of the personal immature nonsense, but I hope that you are mature enough to carry out a normal mature discussion on any given specific topics. I guess you'r not capable of that though.
 
poulidor said:
More than half of Americans elected Bush but they were wrong.

French were right about Irak so I do believe they are right too for Lance doping !
Your logic seems a tad specious.
 
Gee, while I was occupied elsewhere I see I missed the main part of the discussion. I also see that discussion has somehow been trolled back toward the age-old topic of whether Lance dopes. Boring. Circle jerk. Hope you don't mind my saying that, but, I mean, really . . . .

It is only very recently that we've demanded our sportsmen compete drug-free, and really meant it. Especially in pro cycling, which is arguably among the most commercial of sports and definitely among the more corrupt. (This doesn't diminish in any way the achievements of its participants; it just makes the sport human.) I'm not sure why we are suddenly so serious about clean sport, but it probably has a lot to do with the current drugs being so effective.

In contrast, the huffing of menthol and camphor, swallowing of strychnine, snorting/shooting of cocaine, smoking of cigarettes, and drinking of coffee and cognac that occurred in cycling prior to World War II just didn't mean that much to the overall outcome (the taking of the train, however, was another matter). Not in the minds of the public, at least.

World War II brought new drugs. Amphetamines were immensely helpful to men engaged in several straight days of combat and marching and in any case the drugs were distributed to all soldiers on all sides. For more than twenty years after the war the drug companies touted their products as being the panacea for every need and desire, both personal and social. This culminated in the sixties drug culture of the "baby boom" generation and the supposed ultimate drug, LSD. It was in this context that cycling existed and you can bet serious competitors were sucking down every drug the team doctors recommended (and probably some they didn't). And this was acceptable, more or less, until Tom Simpson decided to ride on speed and cognac alone and keeled over in the heat, dead.

After that, "respectable society" demanded that cycling make at least the pretense of frowning on drug use, and so the pretense was made. What? Eddy, you naughty boy, you've tested positive for - gasp! - amphetamines. You are banned for the next two weeks! Round up the usual suspects.

The doping continued, though, and so did the drug research and at some point a funny thing happened: really effective drugs were developed/discovered: various steroids, EPO, human growth hormone, and god knows what all. Flax seed oil. You've got your Cream in my Clear. (Not to mention plain ol' blood doping - autologous transfusion - which preceded the effective drugs but probably worked - and works - just as well.)

OK, so now we demand that cyclists compete drug-free - and this time we really mean it! We want cycling to return to a purity of some sort that only ever existed inside some people's heads. Maybe it can be achieved - I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see it - but if such a time comes it will be a first, make no mistake about that.

Meanwhile, sponsors spend millions and expect to see results. Results, for sure, and no scandal. You do the math.

And that's the way it is, January 20, 2010.

And through it all Eddy Merckx is the greatest competitive cyclist who ever lived or likely ever will live, and no drug will change that.
 
Maxiton said:
Gee, while I was occupied elsewhere I see I missed the main part of the discussion. I also see that discussion has somehow been trolled back toward the age-old topic of whether Lance dopes. Boring. Circle jerk. Hope you don't mind my saying that, but, I mean, really . . . .

It is only very recently that we've demanded our sportsmen compete drug-free, and really meant it. Especially in pro cycling, which is arguably among the most commercial of sports and definitely among the more corrupt. (This doesn't diminish in any way the achievements of its participants; it just makes the sport human.) I'm not sure why we are suddenly so serious about clean sport, but it probably has a lot to do with the current drugs being so effective.

In contrast, the huffing of menthol and camphor, swallowing of strychnine, snorting/shooting of cocaine, smoking of cigarettes, and drinking of coffee and cognac that occurred in cycling prior to World War II just didn't mean that much to the overall outcome (the taking of the train, however, was another matter). Not in the minds of the public, at least.

World War II brought new drugs. Amphetamines were immensely helpful to men engaged in several straight days of combat and marching and in any case the drugs were distributed to all soldiers on all sides. For more than twenty years after the war the drug companies touted their products as being the panacea for every need and desire, both personal and social. This culminated in the sixties drug culture of the "baby boom" generation and the supposed ultimate drug, LSD. It was in this context that cycling existed and you can bet serious competitors were sucking down every drug the team doctors recommended (and probably some they didn't). And this was acceptable, more or less, until Tom Simpson decided to ride on speed and cognac alone and keeled over in the heat, dead.

After that, "respectable society" demanded that cycling make at least the pretense of frowning on drug use, and so the pretense was made. What? Eddy, you naughty boy, you've tested positive for - gasp! - amphetamines. You are banned for the next two weeks! Round up the usual suspects.

The doping continued, though, and so did the drug research and at some point a funny thing happened: really effective drugs were developed/discovered: various steroids, EPO, human growth hormone, and god knows what all. Flax seed oil. You've got your Cream in my Clear. (Not to mention plain ol' blood doping - autologous transfusion - which preceded the effective drugs but probably worked - and works - just as well.)

OK, so now we demand that cyclists compete drug-free - and this time we really mean it! We want cycling to return to a purity of some sort that only ever existed inside some people's heads. Maybe it can be achieved - I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see it - but if such a time comes it will be a first, make no mistake about that.

Meanwhile, sponsors spend millions and expect to see results. Results, for sure, and no scandal. You do the math.

And that's the way it is, January 20, 2010.

And through it all Eddy Merckx is the greatest competitive cyclist who ever lived or likely ever will live, and no drug will change that.


you said it, it wasn't pure back when Eddy was riding so if it's an impure cyclist you care to admire than so be it, that's your right. And i like Eddy but i don't agree that doping helped his case. And why is it that it doesn't matter when it comes to him and not Landis? I wonder if Eddy feels like he deserved those wins, being a doper and all.
 
IMO, any time you do anything that takes from a sport that you are in such as doping to make yourself better, you take from all of us. No one, it seems, took more than Eddy. If you and the rest of the world care to turn your cheek to that fact, well, cycling isn't a better sport for you doing so. And we might as well let Landis have that Tour victory too. Why not? Eddy did it...

my two cents.
 
roadhouse said:
you said it, it wasn't pure back when Eddy was riding so if it's an impure cyclist you care to admire than so be it, that's your right. And i like Eddy but i don't agree that doping helped his case. And why is it that it doesn't matter when it comes to him and not Landis? I wonder if Eddy feels like he deserved those wins, being a doper and all.

IMO, any time you do anything that takes from a sport that you are in such as doping to make yourself better, you take from all of us. No one, it seems, took more than Eddy. If you and the rest of the world care to turn your cheek to that fact, well, cycling isn't a better sport for you doing so. And we might as well let Landis have that Tour victory too. Why not? Eddy did it...

Who is this Landis you speak of? Wasn't he a minor domestique with Faema back in '67? I don't see why he should be held to a different standard than Merckx . . . .

Oh, wait, wait, you must be referring to Landis the 21st century rider, right? The poor ******* who has the dubious distinction of being the only Tour winner stripped of his jersey for doping. That Landis signed to ride in a different era, under different conditions and with different expectations, and with much more effective doping products at hand.

Moreover, and more to the point, he rode that tour during a time in which the stigma around doping, and the penalties for it, were a great deal more severe. For that Landis, which is more unfortunate, getting caught doping, or the arrogance and stupidity that led to such doping in the first place?

Perhaps a great rider would have come back from this and ridden his competition into the ground, if only to prove that no drugs were needed. So far this has not been the case with Landis, who seems to have spent the last season seeking but not finding the brand of beer that would make him go fast. If he is bitter it is understandable, but I can picture him sitting at home reading online forums and wondering who he can blackmail next.

And who said anything about Merckx taking "more than anyone else"? I don't think anyone has alleged that. In any case, "medical preparation" in Merckx's time was ubiquitous and obligatory and all but open and of limited effectiveness. In our time it's a different story.
 
Maxiton said:
Who is this Landis you speak of? Wasn't he a minor domestique with Faema back in '67? I don't see why he should be held to a different standard than Merckx . . . .

Oh, wait, wait, you must be referring to Landis the 21st century rider, right? The poor ******* who has the dubious distinction of being the only Tour winner stripped of his jersey for doping. That Landis signed to ride in a different era, under different conditions and with different expectations, and with much more effective doping products at hand.

Moreover, and more to the point, he rode that tour during a time in which the stigma around doping, and the penalties for it, were a great deal more severe. For that Landis, which is more unfortunate, getting caught doping, or the arrogance and stupidity that led to such doping in the first place?

Perhaps a great rider would have come back from this and ridden his competition into the ground, if only to prove that no drugs were needed. So far this has not been the case with Landis, who seems to have spent the last season seeking but not finding the brand of beer that would make him go fast. If he is bitter it is understandable, but I can picture him sitting at home reading online forums and wondering who he can blackmail next.

And who said anything about Merckx taking "more than anyone else"? I don't think anyone has alleged that. In any case, "medical preparation" in Merckx's time was ubiquitous and obligatory and all but open and of limited effectiveness. In our time it's a different story.


what damn time were you referring to? it's either the doping time or the not doping time. just because it's been so widely accepted that Eddy's time of doping was not so demanding of an explation to his ability of why he was so 'great' doesn't take from the fact that without him doping we'll never really know just how great he really was...Eddy who?
 
Maxiton said:
And through it all Eddy Merckx is the greatest competitive cyclist who ever lived or likely ever will live, and no drug will change that.

That pretty much sums it up.
 
limerickman said:
That pretty much sums it up.


so on that note then who cares if Big Lance dopes then? screw it, give him more of the juice (not that he is that kind of weak and uses it) and let him sub 4 bike Kona..
 
Absolutely Eddy Merckx! Sounds like an advertisement. His accomplishments will never be challenged. The new world of cycling is so far removed from the cycling of his time and cyclists don't race as often as Eddy did.
Don't even try to blame doping in cycling on Eddy. Cyclists were cheating and doping back in the early 1900's.
 
It's impossible to say since a lot of the riders under consideration haven't raced against each other. Comparing stats doesn't prove anything. It'd be better to ask who was the best of each generation.

Merckx was arguably the best when he raced. Can't say if he'd be the best today, 'cuz he doesn't race these days. The people that race today, didn't race when he ruled the peloton.

I do think it's safe to say that Tyler Hamilton wasn't the best.
 
alienator said:
It's impossible to say since a lot of the riders under consideration haven't raced against each other. Comparing stats doesn't prove anything. It'd be better to ask who was the best of each generation.

Merckx was arguably the best when he raced. Can't say if he'd be the best today, 'cuz he doesn't race these days. The people that race today, didn't race when he ruled the peloton.

I do think it's safe to say that Tyler Hamilton wasn't the best.

I like that kind of thinking. It is really impossible to compare athletes from different eras. However, not being argumentative, you could say that Eddy accomplished more in his era in terms of entering more events and winning more events than Lance has accomplished in his era. Still can't say who would win against each other.:)
 
burninglegs said:
I like that kind of thinking. It is really impossible to compare athletes from different eras. However, not being argumentative, you could say that Eddy accomplished more in his era in terms of entering more events and winning more events than Lance has accomplished in his era. Still can't say who would win against each other.:)

Yup, I agree with that. In fact I wish more riders rode the kinds of events that Merckx rode.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.