The need for high tech traffic detectors



"Greens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Yea. Road safety is only partly up to the drivers. Safety devices and
> better road design make a difference. Is that such a strange concept to
> you?


Do you know what difference "safety devices" and "better road design" make?

Hint : it's more about letting people consume any reduction in risk by
taking others instead.

clive
 
-snip impending doom-
> "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote
>> As cyclists, we resent like the risk imposed upon us by car drivers,
>> but it isn't a large risk as long as you participate in traffic in a
>> responsible, predictable way. Maybe you don't-- in which case you
>> should probably stay off the road as much as possible.


Greens wrote:
> If you have any brains, you have to admit that at any moment when you're on
> the side of the street, a passing truck can crush you. It's just a fact. If
> there are moving trucks and you are in or near their path, that is a
> possibility.


A big weight marked "Ten Tons" could fall on my head, too.
I saw the cartoon. It's a fact.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On Sep 5, 12:47 pm, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Please do not distort my words anymore.


Given what you posted five minutes previous (putting quotes around
something I never said), your complaint is truly bizarre!

- Frank Krygowski
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sep 5, 12:47 pm, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Please do not distort my words anymore.

>
> Given what you posted five minutes previous (putting quotes around
> something I never said), your complaint is truly bizarre!
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
>


Don't make me hunt, Frank. Which quote? The City 17 thing is roughly a quote
from Half Life 2. Is that the one? No. You never said that. Somebody in the
game said that. I used it as a reference to a totalitarian civilization.
Other "quotes" it should have been obvious, were a parody of your general
attitude and not direct quotes.
 
"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> -snip impending doom-
>> "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote
>>> As cyclists, we resent like the risk imposed upon us by car drivers,
>>> but it isn't a large risk as long as you participate in traffic in a
>>> responsible, predictable way. Maybe you don't-- in which case you
>>> should probably stay off the road as much as possible.

>
> Greens wrote:
>> If you have any brains, you have to admit that at any moment when you're
>> on the side of the street, a passing truck can crush you. It's just a
>> fact. If there are moving trucks and you are in or near their path, that
>> is a possibility.

>
> A big weight marked "Ten Tons" could fall on my head, too.
> I saw the cartoon. It's a fact.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971


The difference is that the truck is real as an example. The safe could
happen, but we all know it's less likely to happen in this day of yellow
tape and lawyers.
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> > In article
> >> > <[email protected]>
> >> > ,
> >> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sep 4, 7:44 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > This is a collection of ...
> >> >>
> >> >> >appeals to emotion and
> >> >> > imputations of bad character.
> >> >>
> >> >> Uh huh.
> >> >>
> >> >> > unsubstantiated and ill-formed
> >> >> > assertions of facts
> >> >>
> >> >> Nope. Try to substantiate your assertion that my assertion of fact was
> >> >> unsubstantiated, and see where you end up.
> >> >
> >> > You said:
> >> >> in fact cyclists are subject to
> >> >> far more means of injury than pedestrians or drivers
> >> >
> >> >> > Do you ride a bicycle in traffic?
> >> >>
> >> >> Pretty much all day, every day. You?
> >> >
> >> > Why do you engage in such high risk behavior? What is
> >> > the reward? Activities with higher reward/risk ratios
> >> > are rock climbing and bridge jumping. Occupations
> >> > include law enforcement and drug-dealing. You could
> >> > become a bicycle patrolman.
> >> >
> >> > Yes, I ride a bicycle in traffic.
> >>
> >> http://www.base1007.ch/joomla/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=30
> >>
> >> It's hard to find stats on base jumping. I read somewhere that worldwide
> >> there have now been 1000 basejumping deaths since the sport originated in
> >> the 80's(?)
> >>
> >> Many more cyclists have been killed since there have been single years
> >> when
> >> more than 1000 cyclists have been killed.
> >>
> >> If base jumping served some practical, common purpose, who knows? Base
> >> jumping deaths might surpass cycling fatalities. Then again they might
> >> not.
> >> Base jumpers don't have to deal with unpredictable motorists or traffic
> >> laws
> >> much or fatigue necessarily. They pick their spot and they go. If they
> >> guess
> >> wrong about the wind, they die. I wouldn't take it as a given that base
> >> jumping or parachute jumping are more dangerous than cycling without
> >> considerable study of stats.

> >
> > What is the rate of serious injury and death per hour of base jumping?

>
> I don't have it. I don't know if it exists. There's no law that says
> somebody has to tabulate that sort of data. All there is is that base
> fatalities list. I doubt the CDC would even bother with it because the
> numbers are so low.


You cannot argue base jumping risk versus bicycle risk
until you can quote per hour numbers for valid
comparison. Quoting raw numbers is misleading.

--
Michael Press
 
"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > In article
>> > <[email protected]>,
>> > "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> news:[email protected]...
>> >> > In article
>> >> > <[email protected]>
>> >> > ,
>> >> > [email protected] wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Sep 4, 7:44 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > This is a collection of ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >appeals to emotion and
>> >> >> > imputations of bad character.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Uh huh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > unsubstantiated and ill-formed
>> >> >> > assertions of facts
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Nope. Try to substantiate your assertion that my assertion of fact
>> >> >> was
>> >> >> unsubstantiated, and see where you end up.
>> >> >
>> >> > You said:
>> >> >> in fact cyclists are subject to
>> >> >> far more means of injury than pedestrians or drivers
>> >> >
>> >> >> > Do you ride a bicycle in traffic?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Pretty much all day, every day. You?
>> >> >
>> >> > Why do you engage in such high risk behavior? What is
>> >> > the reward? Activities with higher reward/risk ratios
>> >> > are rock climbing and bridge jumping. Occupations
>> >> > include law enforcement and drug-dealing. You could
>> >> > become a bicycle patrolman.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yes, I ride a bicycle in traffic.
>> >>
>> >> http://www.base1007.ch/joomla/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=30
>> >>
>> >> It's hard to find stats on base jumping. I read somewhere that
>> >> worldwide
>> >> there have now been 1000 basejumping deaths since the sport originated
>> >> in
>> >> the 80's(?)
>> >>
>> >> Many more cyclists have been killed since there have been single years
>> >> when
>> >> more than 1000 cyclists have been killed.
>> >>
>> >> If base jumping served some practical, common purpose, who knows? Base
>> >> jumping deaths might surpass cycling fatalities. Then again they might
>> >> not.
>> >> Base jumpers don't have to deal with unpredictable motorists or
>> >> traffic
>> >> laws
>> >> much or fatigue necessarily. They pick their spot and they go. If they
>> >> guess
>> >> wrong about the wind, they die. I wouldn't take it as a given that
>> >> base
>> >> jumping or parachute jumping are more dangerous than cycling without
>> >> considerable study of stats.
>> >
>> > What is the rate of serious injury and death per hour of base jumping?

>>
>> I don't have it. I don't know if it exists. There's no law that says
>> somebody has to tabulate that sort of data. All there is is that base
>> fatalities list. I doubt the CDC would even bother with it because the
>> numbers are so low.

>
> You cannot argue base jumping risk versus bicycle risk
> until you can quote per hour numbers for valid
> comparison. Quoting raw numbers is misleading.
>
> --
> Michael Press


I can't get those figures until somebody does a study using those
parameters. They won't do the study until enough people get killed that it's
worth studying.

Can't you figure this out for yourself. Not enough people get killed base
jumping for them to do studies and therefore it's not that dangerous. It
just looks dangerous and it's probably scary as hell.
 
On Sep 5, 6:38 pm, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> > You cannot argue base jumping risk versus bicycle risk
> > until you can quote per hour numbers for valid
> > comparison. Quoting raw numbers is misleading.

>
>
> I can't get those figures until somebody does a study using those
> parameters. They won't do the study until enough people get killed that it's
> worth studying.
>
> Can't you figure this out for yourself. Not enough people get killed base
> jumping for them to do studies and therefore it's not that dangerous. It
> just looks dangerous and it's probably scary as hell.


"Greens" is, yet again, posting from a position of ignorance.

Here's a link to a table of risks per hour. http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/comparat.html

Note that the most dangerous activity listed is skydiving, at 128
fatalities per hour of participation. Cycling is rated at 0.26
fatalities per hour.

Base jumping is reckoned to be much more dangerous than ordinary
skydiving, but I think we can use 128 fatalities per hour as a very
conservative estimate. Obviously, its danger completely eclipses the
tiny danger of bicycling, by a 500-to-1 margin.

Not that there's much point to this. The anonymous "Greens" is
absolutely intent on ignoring any and all data, and on mocking anyone
who knows more than he does - which, it seems, is a huge number of
people.

I'm going to suggest, once again, that "Greens" simply give up
cycling. It's something he's afraid of, something he's not very good
at, and something he's hurting by his continued whining.

I'm also going to suggest he stop reading these discussions. He's
obviously not willing to learn anything, and I think we've reached the
point where even the lurkers have decided he's a complete waste of
time.

"Greens," if you want to discuss something more substantial than your
phobias and your weird videos, let me know. Until then, I'm hoping to
bow out.

Oh, and good luck on designing your odd little gizmo. Let us know
when you've got it working. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski
 
Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> Here's a link to a table of risks per hour. http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/comparat.html
>
> Note that the most dangerous activity listed is skydiving, at 128
> fatalities per hour of participation. Cycling is rated at 0.26
> fatalities per hour.


I think you mean per _million_ hours. Otherwise I think you'd be
making Greens's case for him.

Chalo
"beating the odds by not dying every four hours on the bike"
 
In article <[email protected]>, Greens
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > -snip impending doom-
> >> "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote
> >>> As cyclists, we resent like the risk imposed upon us by car drivers,
> >>> but it isn't a large risk as long as you participate in traffic in a
> >>> responsible, predictable way. Maybe you don't-- in which case you
> >>> should probably stay off the road as much as possible.

> >
> > Greens wrote:
> >> If you have any brains, you have to admit that at any moment when you're
> >> on the side of the street, a passing truck can crush you. It's just a
> >> fact. If there are moving trucks and you are in or near their path, that
> >> is a possibility.

> >
> > A big weight marked "Ten Tons" could fall on my head, too.
> > I saw the cartoon. It's a fact.
> > --


No problem though. In the cartoon Wile E. always lives to give chase
another day!
 
On Sep 5, 8:42 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > Here's a link to a table of risks per hour. http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/comparat.html

>
> > Note that the most dangerous activity listed is skydiving, at 128
> > fatalities per hour of participation. Cycling is rated at 0.26
> > fatalities per hour.

>
> I think you mean per _million_ hours. Otherwise I think you'd be
> making Greens's case for him.


Yes, you're right, of course!

- Frank Krygowski
 
In article
<[email protected]>
,
[email protected] wrote:

> On Sep 5, 10:57 am, "Greens" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > *Snippage reinserted by Greens* you've gotta wonder why it was snipped.

>
> It was snipped because it's standard Usenet protocol to snip what's
> unnecessary. Otherwise posts grow in length exponentially.


The message length grows linearly.
The total line count in the thread increases quadratically,
if that matters.

--
Michael Press
 
In article <[email protected]>,
A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

> -snip impending doom-
> > "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote
> >> As cyclists, we resent like the risk imposed upon us by car drivers,
> >> but it isn't a large risk as long as you participate in traffic in a
> >> responsible, predictable way. Maybe you don't-- in which case you
> >> should probably stay off the road as much as possible.

>
> Greens wrote:
> > If you have any brains, you have to admit that at any moment when you're on
> > the side of the street, a passing truck can crush you. It's just a fact. If
> > there are moving trucks and you are in or near their path, that is a
> > possibility.

>
> A big weight marked "Ten Tons" could fall on my head, too.
> I saw the cartoon. It's a fact.


As Chalo notes, the only responsible advice for Greens:

"Get off the road!"

--
Michael Press