Today I have been partly riding a Most Dreadful Bike



S

Simon Brooke

Guest
Every so often someone pops up on this bike asking whether they should
buy a £100 dual suspension mountain bike. I've seen these things often
enough and had to fix things on them, so my answer is always 'no'. But
today, visiting an relation in our beloved capital city, I was asked to
fix some things on yet another, and took the opportunity of riding it
from the bottom of Moooorrrningsaide up to the Bike Co-op and back (one
cannot visit Edinburgh without making the pilgrimage to the co-op, after
all).

The bike had been bought a couple of weeks previously, and had been
slightly misassembled. The frame was a particularly heavy variant on the
'Flying V' design, with a unified rear triangle pivoting immediately in
front of the bottom bracket. Front suspension was provided by a pair of
forks with about 35mm travel which felt like elastomer - it was more
damped than sprung. By contrast rear suspension was provided by a 'coil
over' unit in which that I could detect no evidence whatever of damping
action.

As far as I could see this was, in the words of the old Raleigh adverts,
an all-steel bicycle - the wheel rims were aluminium, but nothing else
was. The V brakes had arms stamped out of steel plate. The rear
derailleur was a pre-slant-parallelgram design, also stamped steel
plate, apparently a cheap and even nastier copy of the Shimano SIS
design. The rear dropouts were stamped out of comparatively thin steel
plate and would be very easy to bend. The whole thing easily weighed as
much as any two of my bikes.

Once I had the bike reasonably adjusted, as I say, I rode it. The action
of the shifters was light, if not at all positive. The rear derailleur
tended to upshift under load, presumably due to flex in the pivots, and
the one time I got out of the saddle to sprint this effect caused me to
sit down again extremely rapidly. Apart from shifting under load, the
rear derailleur was quite reluctant to shift up, presumably because of a
weak return spring.

Performance of the suspension was pretty much as predicted. First the
good: the limited travel of the front suspension coupled with the poor
performance of the front brake meant that there was not excessive
brake-dive. Then the bad... where to start? The suspension was not even
good enough to respond smoothly to the surface of a cobbled street. At
the same time, the undamped back end pogoed under pedalling and required
very smooth pedalling action to make any real progress.

Apart from this it was noticeable that the two pedal axles were not quite
parallel with one another, making for an interesting squirming sensation
when pedalling. Some spokes in the rear wheel were loose, suggesting it
won't remain true for long.

The steering was OK. The brakes weren't terrible. The transmission was
dodgy, but did work. Although gear changes weren't at all positive it
was generally possible to select gears. It was physically possible to
ride this bike for a couple of miles across Edinburgh, including uphill.
Nothing broke, or showed obvious signs of being likely to.

But in the course of the same visit I did some minor adjustment on a
Halfords own brand dual boing bike, of a kind which I'd usually condemn
equally strongly, and that was by comparison a revelation. The Halfords
bike was also woefully heavy and had similar general design, but the
components were (although still poor) streets ahead on quality. The V
brakes had cast alloy arms; the transmission components were all Shimano
branded - bottom of the range Shimano, admittedly, but much better than
the no-name copies on the other bike; the cranks were alloy rather than
steel.

General conclusion? £100 bikes really are throwing money down a hole.
They are so much worse than bikes costing just a little more that they
cannot be considered value for money.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant
 
I have a similar dilemma; when they announced new trains on Southern
which would not carry bikes I bought an old 80's dog as a temporary
measure (can't be doing with walking across Victoria and up and down
stairs with Look cleats). Within a couple of months it was down to a
single speed as the gears slowly collapsed. The new trains have arrived
and still no bike ban; now the rear wheel has all but collapsed and I
don't have the tool to remove the rear block. Do I dig out the folder
or buy a new road bike and hope for continued detente between riders,
train crew and fellow passengers (apparently one went to the BTP at
Croydon recently to demand the illegal bikes be removed from the
trains)?
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> General conclusion? £100 bikes really are throwing money down a hole.
> They are so much worse than bikes costing just a little more that they
> cannot be considered value for money.

Have to agree. The bike station in Edinburgh have to scrap loads of
heavy rubbish bikes that end up at the council re-cycling centres. The
nasty bikes are just not worth saving.
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> from the bottom of Moooorrrningsaide up to the Bike Co-op and back (one
> cannot visit Edinburgh without making the pilgrimage to the co-op, after
> all).

Cant agree with you there. I and (other people I know) find the Co-op to
be quite an unpleasent place to visit. Grumpy staff with a know-it-all
unhelpful attitude and an unhealthy focus on recreational/sports riding.
Sloppy work and expensive when getting a bike fixed.
Worst of all - no Bromptons - I dont think they even know what they are.
 
stupot wrote:

> Worst of all - no Bromptons - I dont think they even know what they are.


But they do know what a Birdy is, so it's not like they have No Clues
about folders at all.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On 19 Jul 2005 00:30:18 -0700, "MartinM" <[email protected]> wrote:

>now the rear wheel has all but collapsed and I
>don't have the tool to remove the rear block.


If it's a freewheel I have such a tool. I can bring it on Saturday.



Tim
 
Tim Hall wrote:
> On 19 Jul 2005 00:30:18 -0700, "MartinM" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >now the rear wheel has all but collapsed and I
> >don't have the tool to remove the rear block.

>
> If it's a freewheel I have such a tool. I can bring it on Saturday.


thanks, unknown vintage but pretty sure it's not Shimano. Miche hubs.
Dang, there goes the Saracen Tour I was eyeing up ;-(
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
>Every so often someone pops up on this bike asking whether they should
>buy a £100 dual suspension mountain bike. I've seen these things often
>enough and had to fix things on them, so my answer is always 'no'.

[...]
>General conclusion? £100 bikes really are throwing money down a hole.


All of them, or just the dual suspension ones? I've seen £100
non-suspension bikes that looked reasonably usable.
 
Peter Clinch wrote:
> stupot wrote:
>
>> Worst of all - no Bromptons - I dont think they even know what they
>> are.

>
> But they do know what a Birdy is, so it's not like they have No Clues
> about folders at all.


They couldn't sell me a Brompton inner tube when I asked, and sent me away
with a Moulton one. Granted, I should have known what size to ask for,
but...

Having lived on the same block as EBC for 18 months and consequently quite
frequently gone in for a browse, I can definitely say it's a good bike shop,
but having been around a fair bit more, I'd say it wasn't exceptionally
good.

Recent bikeshops from which I've purchased include Avon Valley Cyclery,
Longstaff and Sideways, which between them more than cover EBC's range. Bike
Trax also comes fairly close for range in a lot of fields as well.

While waiting for the bloke at AVC to find me a bracket for the B & M light
he'd dug out of the lights box for me (strangley not on display in
midsummer), I heard a very distinct voice saying "Go on, you know your
credit card's got the space on it" about the TiPtons and Airnimals.
Particularly the offroad Airnimal. Very tasty
--
Ambrose
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> Every so often someone pops up on this bike asking whether they should
> buy a £100 dual suspension mountain bike. I've seen these things often
> enough and had to fix things on them, so my answer is always 'no'. But
> today, visiting an relation in *our* beloved capital city, I was asked
> to fix some things on yet another, and took the opportunity of riding
> it from the bottom of Moooorrrningsaide up to the Bike Co-op and back
> (one cannot visit Edinburgh without making the pilgrimage to the
> co-op, after all).


Long way from Mornington Crescent to Alvanley Terrace. Do the return journey
and you're an epic audaxer. Oh, you didn't mean uk.rec.cycling's capital. :)

> The bike had been bought a couple of weeks previously, and had been
> slightly misassembled. The frame was a particularly heavy variant on
> the 'Flying V' design, with a unified rear triangle pivoting
> immediately in front of the bottom bracket.


<ob pedant>
URTs pivot behind the bottom bracket.

> The Halfords bike was also woefully heavy and had similar general
> design, but the components were (although still poor) streets ahead
> on quality. The V brakes had cast alloy arms; the transmission
> components were all Shimano branded - bottom of the range Shimano,
> admittedly, but much better than the no-name copies on the other
> bike; the cranks were alloy rather than steel.


Did the £100 bike have a <gulp> one-piece crank?

> General conclusion? £100 bikes really are throwing money down a hole.
> They are so much worse than bikes costing just a little more that they
> cannot be considered value for money.


Now coming to the serious part of the post.

Thanks for writing up an evaluation of everything that's wrong with these
bikes. I think what we need to do next is come up with a recommendation of a
good model at £100, £125 and £150 from Halfords or a few other people (EBC
being an obvious contender.) so when someone posts one of these questions we
can come up with a straight answer.

Next time I go to Halfords I'll have a look at the CX.10 Men's at £99.99
(rigid, 700c, URL below) and see if that looks as if it works.

http://www.halfords.com/opd_product_details.asp?id=20369&type=0&cat=415

I don't know where the EBC range starts nowadays (and I CBA looking it up on
dialup), but presumably that's the next step up, maybe after a Raleigh at
£120-£130ish, which should exist.

Anyway, there's a thought there.
--
Ambrose
 
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:44:00 +0100, Alan Braggins
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> Every so often someone pops up on this bike asking whether they should
>> buy a £100 dual suspension mountain bike. I've seen these things often
>> enough and had to fix things on them, so my answer is always 'no'.

> [...]
>> General conclusion? £100 bikes really are throwing money down a hole.

>
> All of them, or just the dual suspension ones? I've seen £100
> non-suspension bikes that looked reasonably usable.


Yep, I once had a £100 Halfords bike (non sus) that was a decent
hack / pub bike. OTOH it got nicked before I had to replace many of
the relatively **** components (only a crank arm IIRC), so it probably
would have ended up being a waste of money.

I've seen £300-ish hybrids that looked like they could do good
service for *years*; I wouldn't say the same of any £100 bikes I've
seen.

--
jc
 
in message <[email protected]>, Ambrose
Nankivell ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>> Every so often someone pops up on this bike asking whether they should
>> buy a £100 dual suspension mountain bike. I've seen these things often
>> enough and had to fix things on them, so my answer is always 'no'. But
>> today, visiting an relation in *our* beloved capital city, I was asked
>> to fix some things on yet another, and took the opportunity of riding
>> it from the bottom of Moooorrrningsaide up to the Bike Co-op and back
>> (one cannot visit Edinburgh without making the pilgrimage to the
>> co-op, after all).

>
> Long way from Mornington Crescent to Alvanley Terrace. Do the return
> journey and you're an epic audaxer. Oh, you didn't mean
> uk.rec.cycling's capital. :)
>
>> The bike had been bought a couple of weeks previously, and had been
>> slightly misassembled. The frame was a particularly heavy variant on
>> the 'Flying V' design, with a unified rear triangle pivoting
>> immediately in front of the bottom bracket.

>
> <ob pedant>
> URTs pivot behind the bottom bracket.


No they don't. My Mantra, which is after all the classic URT, pivots on
the top tube (which is, of course, also the only tube). This particular
URT, and most of the other cheap Chinese ones, pivoted just in front of
the bottom bracket.

>> The Halfords bike was also woefully heavy and had similar general
>> design, but the components were (although still poor) streets ahead
>> on quality. The V brakes had cast alloy arms; the transmission
>> components were all Shimano branded - bottom of the range Shimano,
>> admittedly, but much better than the no-name copies on the other
>> bike; the cranks were alloy rather than steel.

>
> Did the £100 bike have a <gulp> one-piece crank?


No, cast steel, chromed.

>> General conclusion? £100 bikes really are throwing money down a hole.
>> They are so much worse than bikes costing just a little more that they
>> cannot be considered value for money.

>
> Now coming to the serious part of the post.
>
> Thanks for writing up an evaluation of everything that's wrong with
> these bikes. I think what we need to do next is come up with a
> recommendation of a good model at £100, £125 and £150 from Halfords or
> a few other people (EBC being an obvious contender.) so when someone
> posts one of these questions we can come up with a straight answer.
>
> Next time I go to Halfords I'll have a look at the CX.10 Men's at
> £99.99 (rigid, 700c, URL below) and see if that looks as if it works.


Well, I know we have this discussion again and again and again, and
admittedly the Apollo CX10 is streets ahead of the thing I was playing
with, but I still believe that at £100 you'd be better to go second
hand.

> I don't know where the EBC range starts nowadays (and I CBA looking it
> up on dialup), but presumably that's the next step up


EBC starts at £215, these days (Revolution Trailfinder - a very nice
hybrid, with mudguards). I've personally been very impressed by the
Claud Butler Classic, a rigid hybrid with mudguards and rack as
standard, which retails about £180; it's a good aluminium frame with all
the braze-ons you could ask for, reasonable V brakes, reasonable
transmission, not desperately heavy. That's the cheapest bike I think I
would recommend anyone to buy new.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; First they came for the asylum seekers,
;; and I did not speak out because I was not an asylum seeker.
;; Then they came for the gypsies,
;; and I did not speak out because I was not a gypsy...
;; Pastor Martin Niemöller, translated by Michael Howard.
 
>Thanks for writing up an evaluation of everything that's wrong with these
>bikes. I think what we need to do next is come up with a recommendation of a
>good model at £100, £125 and £150 from Halfords or a few other people (EBC
>being an obvious contender.) so when someone posts one of these questions we
>can come up with a straight answer.
>
>Next time I go to Halfords I'll have a look at the CX.10 Men's at £99.99
>(rigid, 700c, URL below) and see if that looks as if it works.
>
>http://www.halfords.com/opd_product_details.asp?id=20369&type=0&cat=415
>
>I don't know where the EBC range starts nowadays (and I CBA looking it up on
>dialup), but presumably that's the next step up, maybe after a Raleigh at
>£120-£130ish, which should exist.


Cheapest adult bike I can find on EBC is a Specialized Crossroads, £200
http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=19975

http://www.tesco.com/electrical/product.aspx?R=8229367&bci=387|Adult%20Cycles
is an £80 bike.

http://www.cyclesmart.co.uk/shop/index.php/product/bikes-cm/raleigh-cm/
raleigh_gents_city_urban_hybrid-cm/METRO-cm.html is a £150 Raleigh

http://www.cyclesmart.co.uk/shop/index.php/product/bikes-cm/raleigh-cm/
raleigh_gents_moutain_bikes-cm/FREERID-cm.html a £130 one (with
suspension fork).
 
in message <[email protected]>, Alan Braggins
('[email protected]') wrote:

>>Thanks for writing up an evaluation of everything that's wrong with
>>these bikes. I think what we need to do next is come up with a
>>recommendation of a good model at £100, £125 and £150 from Halfords
>>or a few other people (EBC being an obvious contender.) so when someone
>>posts one of these questions we can come up with a straight answer.
>>
>>Next time I go to Halfords I'll have a look at the CX.10 Men's at
>>£99.99 (rigid, 700c, URL below) and see if that looks as if it works.
>>
>>http://www.halfords.com/opd_product_details.asp?id=20369&type=0&cat=415
>>
>>I don't know where the EBC range starts nowadays (and I CBA looking it
>>up on dialup), but presumably that's the next step up, maybe after a
>>Raleigh at £120-£130ish, which should exist.

>
> Cheapest adult bike I can find on EBC is a Specialized Crossroads, £200
> http://www.edinburgh-bicycle.co.uk/catalogue/detail.cfm?ID=19975
>
> http://www.tesco.com/electrical/product.aspx?R=8229367&bci=387

Adult%20Cycles
> is an £80 bike.


As it happens, the Universal Mantis (on the same Tescos page) is the
machine I rode. These are not 'bikes' in any normal sense; they are
pre-packaged scrap metal.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Woz: 'All the best people in life seem to like LINUX.'
;; <URL:http://www.woz.org/woz/cresponses/response03.html>
 
Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> Having lived on the same block as EBC for 18 months and consequently
> quite frequently gone in for a browse, I can definitely say it's a good
> bike shop, but having been around a fair bit more, I'd say it wasn't
> exceptionally good.

And why are they so grumpy? Is the coop side of the organization badly run?
John Lewis coop staff are smiley and helpful.
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>,
> Ambrose Nankivell ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>> The bike had been bought a couple of weeks previously, and had been
>>> slightly misassembled. The frame was a particularly heavy variant on
>>> the 'Flying V' design, with a unified rear triangle pivoting
>>> immediately in front of the bottom bracket.

>>
>> <ob pedant>
>> URTs pivot behind the bottom bracket.

>
> No they don't. My Mantra, which is after all the classic URT, pivots
> on the top tube (which is, of course, also the only tube). This
> particular URT, and most of the other cheap Chinese ones, pivoted
> just in front of the bottom bracket.


Doh! My brain screwed up the geometry. I need the forthcoming reuniting with
my mountain bike to remember what they look like.

>>> The Halfords bike was also woefully heavy and had similar general
>>> design, but the components were (although still poor) streets ahead
>>> on quality. The V brakes had cast alloy arms; the transmission
>>> components were all Shimano branded - bottom of the range Shimano,
>>> admittedly, but much better than the no-name copies on the other
>>> bike; the cranks were alloy rather than steel.

>>
>> Did the £100 bike have a <gulp> one-piece crank?

>
> No, cast steel, chromed.



Phew.

>> Next time I go to Halfords I'll have a look at the CX.10 Men's at
>> £99.99 (rigid, 700c, URL below) and see if that looks as if it works.

>
> Well, I know we have this discussion again and again and again, and
> admittedly the Apollo CX10 is streets ahead of the thing I was playing
> with, but I still believe that at £100 you'd be better to go second
> hand.


It's just a question of saying "Here's something from a big shop that will
work" without having to research it every time.

>> I don't know where the EBC range starts nowadays (and I CBA looking
>> it up on dialup), but presumably that's the next step up

>
> EBC starts at £215, these days (Revolution Trailfinder - a very nice
> hybrid, with mudguards). I've personally been very impressed by the
> Claud Butler Classic, a rigid hybrid with mudguards and rack as
> standard, which retails about £180; it's a good aluminium frame with
> all the braze-ons you could ask for, reasonable V brakes, reasonable
> transmission, not desperately heavy. That's the cheapest bike I think
> I would recommend anyone to buy new.


Sounds like good suggestions. I guess any good LBS would know what bikes
they could both persuade people to buy and also sell to them with a clear
conscience.
--
Ambrose
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>,
> Ambrose Nankivell ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>> The bike had been bought a couple of weeks previously, and had been
>>> slightly misassembled. The frame was a particularly heavy variant on
>>> the 'Flying V' design, with a unified rear triangle pivoting
>>> immediately in front of the bottom bracket.

>>
>> <ob pedant>
>> URTs pivot behind the bottom bracket.

>
> No they don't. My Mantra, which is after all the classic URT, pivots
> on the top tube (which is, of course, also the only tube). This
> particular URT, and most of the other cheap Chinese ones, pivoted
> just in front of the bottom bracket.


Doh! My brain screwed up the geometry. I need the forthcoming reuniting with
my mountain bike to remember what they look like.

>>> The Halfords bike was also woefully heavy and had similar general
>>> design, but the components were (although still poor) streets ahead
>>> on quality. The V brakes had cast alloy arms; the transmission
>>> components were all Shimano branded - bottom of the range Shimano,
>>> admittedly, but much better than the no-name copies on the other
>>> bike; the cranks were alloy rather than steel.

>>
>> Did the £100 bike have a <gulp> one-piece crank?

>
> No, cast steel, chromed.



Phew.

>> Next time I go to Halfords I'll have a look at the CX.10 Men's at
>> £99.99 (rigid, 700c, URL below) and see if that looks as if it works.

>
> Well, I know we have this discussion again and again and again, and
> admittedly the Apollo CX10 is streets ahead of the thing I was playing
> with, but I still believe that at £100 you'd be better to go second
> hand.


It's just a question of saying "Here's something from a big shop that will
work" without having to research it every time.

>> I don't know where the EBC range starts nowadays (and I CBA looking
>> it up on dialup), but presumably that's the next step up

>
> EBC starts at £215, these days (Revolution Trailfinder - a very nice
> hybrid, with mudguards). I've personally been very impressed by the
> Claud Butler Classic, a rigid hybrid with mudguards and rack as
> standard, which retails about £180; it's a good aluminium frame with
> all the braze-ons you could ask for, reasonable V brakes, reasonable
> transmission, not desperately heavy. That's the cheapest bike I think
> I would recommend anyone to buy new.


Sounds like good suggestions. I guess any good LBS would know what bikes
they could both persuade people to buy and also sell to them with a clear
conscience.
--
Ambrose
 

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