Tour de France - is it unAmerican?

[Preston Crawfor]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:16:27 -0500, Kevan Smith wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 13:01:44 GMT, "Preston Crawford" <[email protected]> from
> EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:51:39 +0000, Steve wrote:
>>
>>> And if you see his wallet while he's down there, take it.
>>>
>>> Sportsmanship means helping him up after you've cleaned his clock. Before then, it can be summed
>>> up in these three words: Don't cheat blatantly.
>>
>>This is why I hate the culture of this country I live in. If it's not this it's yell at the
>>cyclist because he's in your way and you're more important. Yell at the cashier because they're
>>not fast enough and you're in a hurry. Step on anyone you can to get ahead.
>
> I really enjoy being nice to cashiers, waiters, etc. When I'm out on my bike, I even tell them to
> take their time because I'm in no hurry. Often it makes their day, and the smile I get is a real
> one instead of the phony, pasted-on one for "customers."

I do also. This article proves a good point, though. We're a rare and dying breed apparantly. A
breed that should be kicked in the teeth for slowing down the progress of everyone else.

Preston

 

[Preston Crawfor]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:06:39 -0500, Pat wrote:

> Preston, you are making the same mistake that the Salon writer did: don't generalize for the
> entire country, the entire culture. I don't know where you live, but it is NOT representative of
> the entire country. Get a grip, man!

Well, I'd like to find a place that wasn't this way, but at least where I live (Oregon) even when
it's good the majority of people still seem to be rude, uncaring and downright nasty to each other.
Is Texas better?

Anyway, I understand there are places where people are nice to each other, but unfortunately
attitudes like the afforementioned are more the rule thant the exception in my experience. You're
correct, though, that it was his assuming this is an American trait we should be proud of that
bothered me more than anything else.

Preston

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:46:32 GMT, "Preston Crawford" <[email protected]> from
EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net wrote:

>
>Well, I'd like to find a place that wasn't this way, but at least where I live (Oregon) even when
>it's good the majority of people still seem to be rude, uncaring and downright nasty to each other.
>Is Texas better?

Oh, Gawd. Dallas is so full of rude people it's pathetic. I think the same of Houston and San
Antonio, but my experiences there are more limited. El Paso and Lubbock were OK. The smaller towns
like Lufkin and Nacogdoches rule, though. Very friendly. In a way, Texas could be its own nation.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace car accident ash a rat hence
3:02:26 PM 27 July 2003

 

[Hunrobe]

>"Preston Crawford"

wrote:

>This is why I hate the culture of this country I live in. If it's not this it's yell at the cyclist
>because he's in your way and you're more important. Yell at the cashier because they're not fast
>enough and you're in a hurry. Step on anyone you can to get ahead.

---snip---

Which "American culture" are you referring to? There is no single "American culture", the country
is just too darned big to allow that. Compare the "culture" of Upper East Side New York with the
"culture" of rural Mississippi, the "culture" of the Upper Midwest, or the "culture" of the
Mountain States.

---snip---

>Great country we have here.

>Preston

Lots of people all over the world seem to think so or we wouldn't have so many immigrants.

Regards, Bob Hunt

 

[Zoot Katz]

Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:02:31 -0500, <[email protected]>, "Pat"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>x-no-archive:yes
>
>> >> He does have a point. I can't think of another American sport where you help your opponent
>> >> when he or she is down so it will be a fair competition.
>> >
>> >Soccer has this tradition, including in the MLS and WUSA.
>
>
>>
>> AFAIK, Soccer isn't really considered an "American" sport until you get into South America.
>>
>> I've seen basketball players help their opponents back to their feet after they've inadvertently
>> knocked them down. But, then again, basketball was a Canadian invention.
>>
>> Polo, another un-American sport, is based on mutual respect.
>>
>> Motorsport has its yellow flag that, when held stationary, indicates no overtaking. Yankees are
>> big on motorsport but they didn't invent it either. It's French.
>> --
>> zk
>
>It doesn't matter who invented the sport---if Americans play it then it is an "American sport." You
>are nitpicking.
>
>Pat in TX
>
AFAIK, baggataway, called lacrosse by settlers, is the sport indigenous to this continent.
"Baggataway" translates as, "little brother of war".

Then other ones that later got invented, like Disc Golf, I'd also consider American
"sports"... thpttt!
--
zk

 

[James Hodson]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:06:39 -0500, "Pat" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Preston, you are making the same mistake that the Salon writer did: don't generalize for the entire
>country, the entire culture. I don't know where you live, but it is NOT representative of the
>entire country. Get a grip, man!
>

Hi Pat

Of course Salon's and Perston's views are not representitive of your entire country but they are
entitled to them. However, I must say that that is the way you (the country - not individuals) come
across to some people overseas. It's almost as if you're saying "If we don't have it, it's not worth
having." and "There's only one way to do it: ours."

I tend to agree with a great many of your country's policies. I've visited the USA only the once -
and that way many years ago - and I was mightily impressed with it and (most) of the people I met.

As I'm in my Devil's Advocate mood this early morning, may I refer you to
<http://www.hiram.ws/photography/mary.zola.html> Do you remember the fuss that followed that?

BTW, it's soccer in the USA and Wales. Everywhere else it's called football. Incidentally, the
kicking the football out of bounds when a player is injured is a relatively recent phenomenon and
has gone too far, IMO, as too many footballers feign injury.

Regards James

--
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/c.butty/Larrau.jpg

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:10:04 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> from Balsa Pacific Aero Ltd.
Engineering & Bicycle Mongery wrote:

>Then other ones that later got invented, like Disc Golf, I'd also consider American
>"sports"... thpttt!

WE have some nice disc courses here. It's a nice pastime, but the athleticism is on a par with
walking. I'd like to bring my dog Sammy and turn him loose on a course. HE loves catching frisbees.
Bikes make good frisbee golf carts, btw.

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace Laundry is the fifth dimension!! ... um ...
um ... th' washing machine is a black hole and the pink socks are bus drivers who just fell in!!
6:32:28 PM 27 July 2003

 

[Eric S. Sande]

>AFAIK, baggataway, called lacrosse by settlers, is the sport indigenous to this continent.
>"Baggataway" translates as, "little brother of war".

I don't know what they called it but the Aztecs had something like arena handball. If you lost,
well, you didn't get a comeback year.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________

 

[Dan Cosley]

In article <[email protected]>, Kevan Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:10:04 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> from Balsa Pacific Aero
> Ltd. Engineering & Bicycle Mongery wrote:
>
>>Then other ones that later got invented, like Disc Golf, I'd also consider American
>>"sports"... thpttt!
>
> WE have some nice disc courses here. It's a nice pastime, but the athleticism is on a par with
> walking.

Play with time -- how fast can you finish the course? Just doing that is pretty amusing. Then, if
you're wanting to emphasize disc golf skill, add on a certain number of seconds per throw.

Works better on courses with few people, but it doesn't take very long to play through.

-- Dan

--
Dan Cosley ([email protected] * http://www.cs.umn.edu/~cosley/) GroupLens Research
Lab, Univ of MN (http://movielens.umn.edu/ * 612.624.8372) *** Just a foot soldier in the Army
of Truth ***

 

[Kevan Smith]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:23:23 +0000 (UTC), Dan Cosley <[email protected]> from University of
Minnesota, Twin Cities Campus wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Kevan Smith wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:10:04 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> from Balsa Pacific Aero
>> Ltd. Engineering & Bicycle Mongery wrote:
>>
>>>Then other ones that later got invented, like Disc Golf, I'd also consider American "sports"...
>>>thpttt!
>>
>> WE have some nice disc courses here. It's a nice pastime, but the athleticism is on a par with
>> walking.
>
>Play with time -- how fast can you finish the course? Just doing that is pretty amusing.

What? And spill the beer?

--
http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace salami ouch a wrench therefore
9:59:29 PM 27 July 2003

 

[Zoot Katz]

Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:39:17 -0400, <[email protected]>, "Eric S. Sande"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>AFAIK, baggataway, called lacrosse by settlers, is the sport indigenous to this continent.
>>"Baggataway" translates as, "little brother of war".
>
>I don't know what they called it but the Aztecs had something like arena handball. If you lost,
>well, you didn't get a comeback year.

Tlachtli.

The Maya played two main kinds of game: handball and "big ball". Their "big ball" game had two main
variations, that played by dynastic rulers and that played by other members of the elite. Each
variant could be played using either stone yugos low around their waist or wooden ball deflectors
high on their chest. There seem to have been three classes of "goals".
--
zk

 

[R15757]

<< Something this knucle-dragger doesn't get is that waiting for your fallen rival isn't just
kissy-poo nice guy **** - it makes a better race. These are tough guys that have ridden a long race
and they want to win in a tough competition with other tough guys, not by having their win handed to
them on a silver platter. So Mr. "I'll knock you down and take your wallet" is another red-neck jerk
who pretends he knows what being tough is all about, but is really just a wimp talking trash. >>

Have to agree with this. In any case....

I don't think Ullrich was in a position to really punish Armstrong on the climb, he already knew it,
was relieved when Armstrong crashed simply because it stopped the attack for a moment, not because
Ullrich thought it might allow him to escape. I dont think Ullrich would have attacked at that point
even if he felt good, but he seemed to be pretty cooked after an unsuccessful attack on the previous
climb and seemed resigned to follow. After LA wrecked the group's pace hit a wall. Whether they were
waiting or not until Hambone waved them back is debatable. Jan's and the little group's subsequent
performance to lose less than a minute to LA was supremely bad-ass.

Columnist guy should have focused on another incident: the yellow jersey as water-carrier.
Strikingly un-American was the reaction to this controversy, that having VHPena carry bottles was a
disgrace to Tour tradition. Most of my American friends thought this it was great that a guy would
keep performing his job like a freakin machine even when wearing the yellow. They didn't see
anything demeaning or disgraceful in it at all. But the Europeans seem quite offended that Pena
didnt prance around like a queen.

Robert

 

[Pat]

x-no-archive:yes

>
> Which "American culture" are you referring to? There is no single
"American
> culture", the country is just too darned big to allow that. Compare the "culture" of Upper East
> Side New York with the "culture" of rural
Mississippi,
> the "culture" of the Upper Midwest, or the "culture" of the Mountain
States.

Absolutely correct! And there is no way in hell that the "culture" of any other state is like that
of Texas. Texas is different---and one reason is because it straddles between the "old South" and
the "new West" areas of the country, a transition area as it were.

> ---snip---
>
> >Great country we have here.
>
> >Preston
>
> Lots of people all over the world seem to think so or we wouldn't have so
many
> immigrants.
>
> Regards, Bob Hunt

Funny about that, isn't it? I guess their impressions of what they hear from afar isn't the same as
those people who like to stay in their countries and carp about how "all Americans are....." Maybe
we should ask the immigrants why the ones who stay behind are so disdainful of America?

Pat in TX

 

[Art Winterbauer]

> Absolutely correct! And there is no way in hell that the "culture" of any other state is like that
> of Texas. Texas is different---and one reason is because it straddles between the "old South" and
> the "new West" areas of the country, a transition area as it were.

And as I vaguely recall from a linguistics course, that's even reflected in the dialects. East Texas
dialects were more "Southern" as in Mississippi and Alabama. West Texas dialects were from border
states like Tennessee and Kentucky.

Just some more trivia....Art

 

[Brent Hugh]

Steve <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Excerpts from King Kaufman's column in Salon -
>
> I think the Tour de France leaves Americans cold because it is almost perfectly antithetical to
> the American character.

A couple other published bits exploring this vein of "thought":

Lance Armstrong is a tremendous athlete, but not one of the all-time greatest. Bo Jackson could
smack a baseball 450 feet and treat Brian Bosworth like a bug in the path of a H2 Hummer.
Conversely, Armstrong can climb a hill on a bike. The Texan is nearly superhuman when it comes to
riding a bike, but he doesn't belong in the pantheon of great all-around sportsmen.

If the Tour de France took place during Week 6 of the NFL season instead of in July, would anyone
care about Lance Armstrong?

(Cecil County, MD, Whig,
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=9911741&BRD=1973&PAG=461&dept_id=177149&rfi=6 )

-------

Forget the fact that the riders in the Tour de France put in the equivalent of a marathon every day
for three weeks.

Forget the 12 million roadside revelers.

Forget the scenes of riders finishing above the clouds or rolling through vineyards or the miles of
fields of sunflowers.

The Tour rises above other sports spectacles because of its sportsmanship. Perhaps that's one of the
reasons its seems so hard for the general American sports fan to open up and embrace.

(St. Louis Post-Dispatch, http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/Kathleen+Nelson/0C-
2D418DC7B4874F86256D6F000B73C1?OpenDocument&highlight=2%2Cbike&headline=Good+sportsmanship+makes+To-
ur+unique )

-------

--Brent bhugh [at] mwsc.edu

 

[Robin Hubert]

"Brent Hugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Steve <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Excerpts from King Kaufman's column in Salon -
> >
> > I think the Tour de France leaves Americans cold because it is almost perfectly antithetical to
> > the American character.
>
> A couple other published bits exploring this vein of "thought":
>
> Lance Armstrong is a tremendous athlete, but not one of the all-time greatest. Bo Jackson could
> smack a baseball 450 feet and treat Brian Bosworth like a bug in the path of a H2 Hummer.
> Conversely, Armstrong can climb a hill on a bike. The Texan is nearly superhuman when it comes to
> riding a bike, but he doesn't belong in the pantheon of great all-around sportsmen.
>
> If the Tour de France took place during Week 6 of the NFL season instead of in July, would anyone
> care about Lance Armstrong?
>
> (Cecil County, MD, Whig,
>
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=9911741&BRD=1973&PAG=461&dept_id=1 77149&rfi=6
> )
>
> -------
>
> Forget the fact that the riders in the Tour de France put in the equivalent of a marathon every
> day for three weeks.
>
> Forget the 12 million roadside revelers.
>
> Forget the scenes of riders finishing above the clouds or rolling through vineyards or the miles
> of fields of sunflowers.
>
> The Tour rises above other sports spectacles because of its sportsmanship. Perhaps that's one of
> the reasons its seems so hard for the general American sports fan to open up and embrace.

I would, but that's because I care squat about organized team sports such as baseball, football,
basketball, and hockey. Individualist sports such as track and field and Bicycling get my attention,
but then I don't care too much for the complex "team" approach of professional bicycling either. I'd
like to see the TdF raced by individuals. Then we'd see the "real stuff".

>
> (St. Louis Post-Dispatch,
>
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/Kathleen+Nelson/0C2D4
18DC7B4874F86256D6F000B73C1?OpenDocument&highlight=2%2Cbike&headline=Good+sp
ortsmanship+makes+Tour+unique
> )
>

--
Robin Hubert <[email protected]

 

[Pete]

"Brent Hugh" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> A couple other published bits exploring this vein of "thought":
>
> Lance Armstrong is a tremendous athlete, but not one of the all-time greatest. Bo Jackson could
> smack a baseball 450 feet and treat Brian Bosworth like a bug in the path of a H2 Hummer.
> Conversely, Armstrong can climb a hill on a bike. The Texan is nearly superhuman when it comes to
> riding a bike, but he doesn't belong in the pantheon of great all-around sportsmen.

Haha. Could Lance luck out and get a hit or two, and get on base during a whole baseball season?
Probably. Could Bo Jackson or Brian Bosworth get better than last place overall on the TdF?
Probably not.

I defy Bo or Brian to play a full game, offense and defense, at 100+ %, every day for 3 weeks.

> If the Tour de France took place during Week 6 of the NFL season instead of in July, would anyone
> care about Lance Armstrong?

Probably the other 98% people in the world who are not infatuated with American football.

Pete This is what comes from viewing bikes as "toys".

 

[Peter Gardner]

> I'd like to see the TdF raced by individuals. Then we'd see the "real stuff".

Even better: make them carry all their own gear, and camp out at night, and cook their own food.
That would be more fun anyway.

Peter

 

[Archer]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "Brent Hugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Steve <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Excerpts from King Kaufman's column in Salon -
> > >
> > > I think the Tour de France leaves Americans cold because it is almost perfectly antithetical
> > > to the American character.
> >
> > A couple other published bits exploring this vein of "thought":
> >
> > Lance Armstrong is a tremendous athlete, but not one of the all-time greatest. Bo Jackson could
> > smack a baseball 450 feet and treat Brian Bosworth like a bug in the path of a H2 Hummer.
> > Conversely, Armstrong can climb a hill on a bike. The Texan is nearly superhuman when it comes
> > to riding a bike, but he doesn't belong in the pantheon of great all-around sportsmen.
> >
> > If the Tour de France took place during Week 6 of the NFL season instead of in July, would
> > anyone care about Lance Armstrong?
> >
> > (Cecil County, MD, Whig,
> >
> http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=9911741&BRD=1973&PAG=461&dept_id=1 77149&rfi=6
> > )
> >
> > -------
> >
> > Forget the fact that the riders in the Tour de France put in the equivalent of a marathon every
> > day for three weeks.
> >
> > Forget the 12 million roadside revelers.
> >
> > Forget the scenes of riders finishing above the clouds or rolling through vineyards or the miles
> > of fields of sunflowers.
> >
> > The Tour rises above other sports spectacles because of its sportsmanship. Perhaps that's one of
> > the reasons its seems so hard for the general American sports fan to open up and embrace.
>
> I would, but that's because I care squat about organized team sports such as baseball, football,
> basketball, and hockey. Individualist sports such as track and field and Bicycling get my
> attention, but then I don't care too much for the complex "team" approach of professional
> bicycling either. I'd like to see the TdF raced by individuals. Then we'd see the "real stuff".

Do every stage as a time-trial? That'd be interesting.

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.

 

[Archer]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "Brent Hugh" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > A couple other published bits exploring this vein of "thought":
> >
> > Lance Armstrong is a tremendous athlete, but not one of the all-time greatest. Bo Jackson could
> > smack a baseball 450 feet and treat Brian Bosworth like a bug in the path of a H2 Hummer.
> > Conversely, Armstrong can climb a hill on a bike. The Texan is nearly superhuman when it comes
> > to riding a bike, but he doesn't belong in the pantheon of great all-around sportsmen.
>
> Haha. Could Lance luck out and get a hit or two, and get on base during a whole baseball season?
> Probably. Could Bo Jackson or Brian Bosworth get better than last place overall on the TdF?
> Probably not.

I'll bet with a bit of training, Bo could. He would likely do rather well in the sprints, since
that's where he excelled. Brian Bosworth was nowhere near the natural athlete Bo was.

....

--
David Kerber An optimist says "Good morning, Lord." While a pessimist says "Good Lord,
it's morning".

Remove the ns_ from the address before e-mailing.