Touring/commute shoes

[Matt O'Toole]

Booker C. Bense wrote:

> _ IMHO, SPD is appropriate for commuting since once you've
> mastered clipless it is MASSIVELY easier to unclip than it is to
> deal with straps and clips. Also, if you have never tortured
> yourself with clips and straps you won't have the instincts to
> use them safely. The only advantage they have is that you can
> use them with any shoe. They have a lot of disadvantages from
> a commuting perspective. Perhaps the biggest of these is being
> able to bunny hop without pulling your feet off the pedals.
> For riding in traffic and dealing with road hazards, I think
> clipless pedals are well worth the hassle of special shoes.

I agree with this 100%. Clipless is much easier, and safer, than traditional
straps and clips, either getting in or out.

Matt O.

 

[sfcommuter]

I agree with this 100%. Clipless is much easier, and safer, than traditional
straps and clips, either getting in or out.

Matt O.

That's what I thought as well until 3 months ago my foot was literally ripped out of it's socket, bones broken and tendons ruptured in a crash when I failed to unclip. This was with speedplay frog pedals that have lots of float, however, my foot twisted IN instead of OUT during the crash and my ankle took all the force causing horrible damage and I'm still on crutches and not walking yet.

I can only assume that my accident was an anomaly because certainly if clipless pedals caused this type of damage no one would risk using them. You could make the argument that toe straps/clips could cause the same damage but if you keep the straps LOOSE I think they would be safer than clipless. In any case, I was using toe straps/clips before I went clipless and never had any problems and frankly think clipless systems are overrated.

I was using Shimano M037 shoes with cleats and the shoes worked well, but now I'm finding it hard to find a good smooth-soled touring style shoe that works well with toe clips/straps because I also agree that wearing non-cycling shoes on long rides can get painful. If someone knows of some good touring/commute shoe that work well with clips & straps let me know!

Just an alternative (but now very biased) viewpoint.

 

[Andrew Berry]

On 2004-11-20 12:36:53 +1000, [email protected] (D. A.'Dutch' Martinich) said:

> Paul Richardson <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<BDC235EF.12BAB%[email protected]>...
>> Anyone have a recommendation on a good pair of touring/commute shoes for
>> bicycling. I have a recently acquired sngle speed (track-like bike that I
>> will be using to travel to/from BART (SF). My concern is navigating stairs,
>> slick tiles etc..., with my regular road cleats (Look compatible) , I'd
>> still like to clip in (SPD or Look is fine

I use a pair of shimano SPD sandals for about 90% of my riding (the
other 10% is when it's too cold). I live in a warm climate, however,
and this might not be quite as practical in SF. The sandals are
comfortable, easy to walk in, water resistant (have you ever slipped on
a pair of soggy cycling shoes ...) and the ones I had were pretty
stylish.

> Since you are not racing, or even time trialing, use something like
> MKS touring pedals with clips and straps. I use a thick soled deck
> shoe myself. The sole is soft enough to bite into the pedal and avoid
> slippage, but even then, you ain't racing and who cares if you arrive
> at your destination about 30 seconds later. I'll never understand why
> so many commuters (or tourists) deck out in full racing kit.

I used clips and straps for a couple of years before migrating to SPD
shoes on shimano M323 pedals (cage one side, cleat the other). I could
never go back: they're just so much easier to use. I'm at the point
now where I almost never use the cage side.

Ciao,

AndyB

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> Matt O'Toole Wrote:
> >
> >
> > I agree with this 100%. Clipless is much easier, and safer, than
> > traditional
> > straps and clips, either getting in or out.
> >
> > Matt O.
>
> That's what I thought as well until 3 months ago my foot was literally
> ripped out of it's socket, bones broken and tendons ruptured in a crash
> when I failed to unclip. This was with speedplay frog pedals that have
> lots of float, however, my foot twisted IN instead of OUT during the
> crash and my ankle took all the force causing horrible damage and I'm
> still on crutches and not walking yet.
>
> I can only assume that my accident was an anomaly because certainly if
> clipless pedals caused this type of damage no one would risk using
> them. You could make the argument that toe straps/clips could cause
> the same damage but if you keep the straps LOOSE I think they would be
> safer than clipless. In any case, I was using toe straps/clips before
> I went clipless and never had any problems and frankly think clipless
> systems are overrated.
>
> I was using Shimano M037 shoes with cleats and the shoes worked well,
> but now I'm finding it hard to find a good smooth-soled touring style
> shoe that works well with toe clips/straps because I also agree that
> wearing non-cycling shoes on long rides can get painful. If someone
> knows of some good touring/commute shoe that work well with clips &
> straps let me know!
>
> Just an alternative (but now very biased) viewpoint.
>

I fear the scenario you describe and for that reason I use the Shimano
multi-mode cleat. They still allow you pull up on the pedals and do
little bunnyhops without unlocking, but if you need to adopt the superman
position you can do so without the bike being attached. They have
unlocked in every one of the infrequent crashes I have had.

For some reason, these cleats are not popular, even for touring or
general riding. Why??

Bruce Graham

 

[Matt O'Toole]

sfcommuter wrote:

> That's what I thought as well until 3 months ago my foot was literally
> ripped out of it's socket, bones broken and tendons ruptured in a
> crash when I failed to unclip. This was with speedplay frog pedals
> that have lots of float, however, my foot twisted IN instead of OUT
> during the crash and my ankle took all the force causing horrible
> damage and I'm still on crutches and not walking yet.
>
> I can only assume that my accident was an anomaly because certainly if
> clipless pedals caused this type of damage no one would risk using
> them.

Sorry for your accident. I hope you heal quickly!

Not all clipless pedals are the same. Shimano SPD and similar ones will release
in any hard crash. Some others, like Speedplay, require a certain motion to get
out of. They won't just rip out in any direction. Even the "single release"
Shimano cleats will pull right out if you pull hard enough, but not hard enough
to hurt yourself. I've taken plenty of falls while mountain biking, but never
failed to release from my SPDs. I can't say the same for clips and straps.

> You could make the argument that toe straps/clips could cause
> the same damage but if you keep the straps LOOSE I think they would be
> safer than clipless.

In that case, you would lose most of their benefit, so why have them at all?
Before clipless pedals, racers used cleats nailed to the bottoms of their shoes,
and tightened the straps so their feet wouldn't come out until the straps were
loosened again. 20 years ago, we saw riders reach down to loosen their straps
while slowing for red lights. Now this motion has been forgotten, and riders
have to stop to adjust the velcro on their shoes.

> In any case, I was using toe straps/clips before
> I went clipless and never had any problems and frankly think clipless
> systems are overrated.
>
> I was using Shimano M037 shoes with cleats and the shoes worked well,
> but now I'm finding it hard to find a good smooth-soled touring style
> shoe that works well with toe clips/straps because I also agree that
> wearing non-cycling shoes on long rides can get painful. If someone
> knows of some good touring/commute shoe that work well with clips &
> straps let me know!

Unfortunate but true.

Some of the sneaker/BMX shoes have smooth, stiff soles which can be used either
with or without the cleats. In fact right now I'm wearing some Answer Flatfoot
like this. Mine have SPD cleats installed, but I could have left them out to
use with clips and straps. Vans makes a bunch of these shoes, as do others.
You can also find older, NOS touring shoes for sale on eBay.

I'd like to find some true dual-purpose shoes made of all synthetic materials,
like my Sidis, but with no padding or leather that can become soaked and take
forever to dry out.

Matt O.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Bruce Graham wrote:

> I fear the scenario you describe and for that reason I use the Shimano
> multi-mode cleat. They still allow you pull up on the pedals and do
> little bunnyhops without unlocking, but if you need to adopt the
> superman position you can do so without the bike being attached.
> They have unlocked in every one of the infrequent crashes I have had.
>
> For some reason, these cleats are not popular, even for touring or
> general riding. Why??

They pull out too easily for some people. With me, they used to release when
using body english or just getting off balance while mountain biking. The
standard cleats pull out easily enough when they need to. Like I said, I've
never had them fail to release when they should have.

Matt O.

 

[Peter Cole]

"sfcommuter" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
>
> Matt O'Toole Wrote:
> >
> >
> > I agree with this 100%. Clipless is much easier, and safer, than
> > traditional
> > straps and clips, either getting in or out.
> >
> > Matt O.
>
> That's what I thought as well until 3 months ago my foot was literally
> ripped out of it's socket, bones broken and tendons ruptured in a crash
> when I failed to unclip. This was with speedplay frog pedals that have
> lots of float, however, my foot twisted IN instead of OUT during the
> crash and my ankle took all the force causing horrible damage and I'm
> still on crutches and not walking yet.
>
> I can only assume that my accident was an anomaly because certainly if
> clipless pedals caused this type of damage no one would risk using
> them. You could make the argument that toe straps/clips could cause
> the same damage but if you keep the straps LOOSE I think they would be
> safer than clipless. In any case, I was using toe straps/clips before
> I went clipless and never had any problems and frankly think clipless
> systems are overrated.

A good friend of mine had a similar incident this summer when he was has a
slow, twisting, fall and his cleat didn't release. He shattered his lower
leg bone and had surgery to install a plate & screws to put it all back
together. He was using Crank Bros. Egg Beaters. He felt that his foot
became trapped, perhaps by his heel being pressed against the crank,
preventing enough rotation to allow the cleat to release. This may be more
of a problem with cleats with a lot of float. He has gone back to SPD's, at
least for the little bit of riding he can now do (10 weeks later -- he was
competitive at a national level).

 

[Peter Cole]

"Bruce Graham" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> I fear the scenario you describe and for that reason I use the Shimano
> multi-mode cleat. They still allow you pull up on the pedals and do
> little bunnyhops without unlocking, but if you need to adopt the superman
> position you can do so without the bike being attached. They have
> unlocked in every one of the infrequent crashes I have had.
>
> For some reason, these cleats are not popular, even for touring or
> general riding. Why??

Good question. I've used the silver, multi-release cleats exclusively. I
currently have 3-4 pairs of single-release (black cleats of death) unused,
that came with new pedals (anybody want to trade?). Because the
multi-release cleats let go when you roll the foot, they may cause
unintentional release when your weight is unbalanced, so you have to be
careful. My reflexes are tuned to them so that never happens to me. I
suppose it's a matter of trading off one hazard for another, but my feeling
is that I can control the pullout hazard and not the trap hazard, so I'll
stick with the silvers.

 

[Peter Cole]

"Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > You could make the argument that toe straps/clips could cause
> > the same damage but if you keep the straps LOOSE I think they would be
> > safer than clipless.
>
> In that case, you would lose most of their benefit, so why have them at
all?
> Before clipless pedals, racers used cleats nailed to the bottoms of their
shoes,
> and tightened the straps so their feet wouldn't come out until the straps
were
> loosened again. 20 years ago, we saw riders reach down to loosen their
straps
> while slowing for red lights.

I agree. One other thing I'd point out is than in twisting falls the strap
can be pulled tighter by foot rotation. This is a big problem with "Power
Grips", a soft strap system that goes diagonally across the foot and relies
on some foot twist to tighten. I call them "death grips". I used them for a
year or so before I learned better.

 

[David Damerell]

Booker C. Bense <[email protected]> wrote:
>_ IMHO, SPD is appropriate for commuting since once you've
>mastered clipless it is MASSIVELY easier to unclip than it is to
>deal with straps and clips.

Well, no. Commuters and tourists should not use clips and straps tightly,
like trackies, but simply in order to provide a bit of positioning on the
pedal.

This, of course, is trivial to disengage from.

>use them safely. The only advantage they have is that you can
>use them with any shoe. They have a lot of disadvantages from
>a commuting perspective. Perhaps the biggest of these is being
>able to bunny hop without pulling your feet off the pedals.

Why on Earth would I need to bunny hop?
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!

 

[Jeff Starr]

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 13:49:55 GMT, "Peter Cole"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Bruce Graham" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> I fear the scenario you describe and for that reason I use the Shimano
>> multi-mode cleat. They still allow you pull up on the pedals and do
>> little bunnyhops without unlocking, but if you need to adopt the superman
>> position you can do so without the bike being attached. They have
>> unlocked in every one of the infrequent crashes I have had.
>>
>> For some reason, these cleats are not popular, even for touring or
>> general riding. Why??
>
>Good question. I've used the silver, multi-release cleats exclusively. I
>currently have 3-4 pairs of single-release (black cleats of death) unused,
>that came with new pedals (anybody want to trade?). Because the
>multi-release cleats let go when you roll the foot, they may cause
>unintentional release when your weight is unbalanced, so you have to be
>careful. My reflexes are tuned to them so that never happens to me. I
>suppose it's a matter of trading off one hazard for another, but my feeling
>is that I can control the pullout hazard and not the trap hazard, so I'll
>stick with the silvers.
>

Hi, I don't have any to trade, but I could sure use just one single
release. I like the multi-release, but I had a one time incident where
my artificial leg, pulled out.I was pedaling really hard and fast, at
the time. I think there are some out of the ordinary angles, that the
leg puts the shoe, pedal interface into. Ii have these on my second
bike and only ride it when the weather is bad, or my other bike is out
of commision. That doesn't happen, anymore, since I started doing my
own work and started acquirng spare parts.

Anyway, if I tighten the pedal up for harder release, then I have a
lot of trouble getting the leg in and out. I hate to buy a set, when
I'll never use them enough to wear the first one out.


Life is Good!
Jeff

 

[sfcommuter]

sfcommuter wrote:

> You could make the argument that toe straps/clips could cause
> the same damage but if you keep the straps LOOSE I think they would be
> safer than clipless.

In that case, you would lose most of their benefit, so why have them at all?
Before clipless pedals, racers used cleats nailed to the bottoms of their shoes,
and tightened the straps so their feet wouldn't come out until the straps were
loosened again. 20 years ago, we saw riders reach down to loosen their straps
while slowing for red lights. Now this motion has been forgotten, and riders
have to stop to adjust the velcro on their shoes.
Matt O.

I always found that the clips/straps helped position my foot and gave more of a stable feeling to the pedaling. I'm not concerned about big efficiency gains. It is probably true that the absolute safest setup would be just plain pedals with no straps/clips at all!

I'm always curious to see what bike messengers in downtown SF use since they have to pedal all day. I've observed a mix between clipless systems but more seem to use clips/straps or no retention. Anyway, people should use whatever feels more comfortable to them. I'm not opposed to clipless in general, but my experience really made me think twice about pedal saftey.

 

[Booker C. Bense]

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In article <iwd*[email protected]>,
David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Why on Earth would I need to bunny hop?

_ If you're going to ride in a city with traffic being able to
bunny hop onto a curb in an emergency will save a lot of skin. It
will get you over that wheel eating rain grate or broken beer
bottle without having to swerve into traffic. A bunny hop can
turn a lot of potential crashes into a good adrenaline fix and a
story to remember.

_ Booker C. Bense

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[Java Man]

In article <iwd*[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Why on Earth would I need to bunny hop?
>
Because fox hunting has been banned??

;-)

Rick

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Booker C. Bense wrote:

> In article <iwd*[email protected]>,
> David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Why on Earth would I need to bunny hop?
>
> _ If you're going to ride in a city with traffic being able to
> bunny hop onto a curb in an emergency will save a lot of skin. It
> will get you over that wheel eating rain grate or broken beer
> bottle without having to swerve into traffic. A bunny hop can
> turn a lot of potential crashes into a good adrenaline fix and a
> story to remember.

I've ridden a bicycle in a city with traffic for years, and the only time I
can remember bunny-hopping my bike for a good reason was to clear a set of
train tracks at the bottom of a hill (and that was still mostly for fun).
If you're riding over rain grates, or find you don't have enough room to
avoid beer bottles, you're riding too close to the curb, IMO.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Peter Cole wrote:

> A good friend of mine had a similar incident this summer when he was
> has a slow, twisting, fall and his cleat didn't release. He shattered
> his lower leg bone and had surgery to install a plate & screws to put
> it all back together. He was using Crank Bros. Egg Beaters. He felt
> that his foot became trapped, perhaps by his heel being pressed
> against the crank, preventing enough rotation to allow the cleat to
> release. This may be more of a problem with cleats with a lot of
> float. He has gone back to SPD's, at least for the little bit of
> riding he can now do (10 weeks later -- he was competitive at a
> national level).

The problem with systems other than SPD is that the only way to release is
through rotation. You can pull upward, diagonally, or sideways hard enough to
hurt yourself, and the cleat still won't release. Furthermore, since they're
designed to float, it takes more rotation for release to occur. SPDs release
with just few degrees of rotation, probably within the designed float range of
the others.

Matt O.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Peter Cole wrote:

> Good question. I've used the silver, multi-release cleats
> exclusively. I currently have 3-4 pairs of single-release (black
> cleats of death) unused, that came with new pedals (anybody want to
> trade?). Because the multi-release cleats let go when you roll the
> foot, they may cause unintentional release when your weight is
> unbalanced, so you have to be careful. My reflexes are tuned to them
> so that never happens to me. I suppose it's a matter of trading off
> one hazard for another, but my feeling is that I can control the
> pullout hazard and not the trap hazard, so I'll stick with the
> silvers.

In fact most mountain bikers do seem to prefer the silver, multi-release ones.
Shimano has always provided the black ones with new pedals. Everyone seemed to
agree this was a ploy to get people to spend an extra $20 for the silver ones --
like how printer manufacturers always leave out the cords, so the store can make
more money on the cord than the printer itself.

Matt O.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Booker C. Bense wrote:

> _ If you're going to ride in a city with traffic being able to
> bunny hop onto a curb in an emergency will save a lot of skin. It
> will get you over that wheel eating rain grate or broken beer
> bottle without having to swerve into traffic. A bunny hop can
> turn a lot of potential crashes into a good adrenaline fix and a
> story to remember.

It's not a regular event for me, but it's saved my bacon a few times over the
years.

One reason I ride my mountain bike around town is that it will roll over
surprise hazards that might cause a crash with my road bike. Its not like the
roads are minefields, but a near miss every few months is enough.

Matt O.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Benjamin Lewis wrote:

> I've ridden a bicycle in a city with traffic for years, and the only
> time I can remember bunny-hopping my bike for a good reason was to
> clear a set of train tracks at the bottom of a hill (and that was
> still mostly for fun). If you're riding over rain grates, or find you
> don't have enough room to avoid beer bottles, you're riding too close
> to the curb, IMO.

This is true, but sometimes there's a car where you should be riding, and
another one behind it ready to take that space before you can get there.

Matt O.

 

[Pizza Man]

David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<iwd*[email protected]>...
> Booker C. Bense <[email protected]> wrote:
> >_ IMHO, SPD is appropriate for commuting since once you've
> >mastered clipless it is MASSIVELY easier to unclip than it is to
> >deal with straps and clips.
>
> Well, no. Commuters and tourists should not use clips and straps tightly,
> like trackies, but simply in order to provide a bit of positioning on the
> pedal.
>
> This, of course, is trivial to disengage from.

Put my vote in the retro-grouch category. For commuting or just riding
around, clips and straps work just fine. I'm not interested in special
shoes and fancy pedals. Good ol' clips and straps work fine. Here in
the NW it is often wet and standard cage or platform pedals can be
slick. I don't ratchet down on the straps to lock my feet to the
pedals; I loosely cinch them up enough to keep my foot from slipping
off the pedal. That's it.

No ill will to clipless riders, but clips and straps tend to get a
blanket thrashing that is undeserved. If I was doing technical MTBing
I might opt for SPD's or just platforms. For my sort of MTBing I plan
on mating some MTB cage pedals with strapless clips. Again, I am not
trying to lock my foot to anything, just help maintain proper foot
placement. I don't think there is much risk to riding with the
strapless clips (no doubt somebody will come up with some fatal flaw
or an anecdotal horror story of this setup).

I'm not a racer, but I can see a huge advantage to clipless for this
application. For commuting and general recreational riding on my road
bike, I plan to get some flat platform pedals and install clips and
straps. Run them just tight enough to keep my foot in place, but loose
enough to allow easy release under any reasonable circumstance. In my
days of youth I rode "loose" clips and straps for years with 100%
satisfaction. Foot always in place, zero problems with extractions.

I think you should ride what ever setup works for you. I still think
clips and straps (or strapless) still have a legitimate niche for
some.

> Why on Earth would I need to bunny hop?

Hell, I don't even turtle hop anymore.

Tracy (Clipped, strapped and satisfied).