Training help

[Old n' Lazy]

I just got back into cycling again this spring. I have been training about 8-9 hrs per week (for about 6 weeks) with one long 4 hr ride and two shorter 2-2.5 hr rides. THe 4 hr ride is at about 135bpm and the other two are around the same but with 30 minutes of intervals (40 sec "on" 20sec "off") or 20-25minutes of hard effort (165-170bpm). The last MTB race I showed up at was awful! I had no lungs, my legs felt fine but I was ragged breathing so bad I could hardly see. I was well rested entering the race. What needs to change in my training to get me competetive?

 

[wiredued]

If your 4 hour ride is at your natural not thinking about it pace you need to concentrate to stay a little above that make it a 3 hour ride if you have to but stay atleast at Tempo pace 76% to 90% FTP. Your 2.5 hour days might be missing the sweet spot also breathing should not be out of control but don't fall into endurance either shoot for 91% FTP average for 1 hour or do a 3x20.

I just got back into cycling again this spring. I have been training about 8-9 hrs per week (for about 6 weeks) with one long 4 hr ride and two shorter 2-2.5 hr rides. THe 4 hr ride is at about 135bpm and the other two are around the same but with 30 minutes of intervals (40 sec "on" 20sec "off") or 20-25minutes of hard effort (165-170bpm). The last MTB race I showed up at was awful! I had no lungs, my legs felt fine but I was ragged breathing so bad I could hardly see. I was well rested entering the race. What needs to change in my training to get me competetive?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

I just got back into cycling again this spring. I have been training about 8-9 hrs per week (for about 6 weeks) with one long 4 hr ride and two shorter 2-2.5 hr rides. THe 4 hr ride is at about 135bpm and the other two are around the same but with 30 minutes of intervals (40 sec "on" 20sec "off") or 20-25minutes of hard effort (165-170bpm). The last MTB race I showed up at was awful! I had no lungs, my legs felt fine but I was ragged breathing so bad I could hardly see. I was well rested entering the race. What needs to change in my training to get me competetive?

First you need to build core aerobic fitness and when that comes up a bit you need to top it off with some high end work, especially for mountain bike racing. Based on this:

The last MTB race I showed up at was awful! I had no lungs, my legs felt fine but I was ragged breathing so bad I could hardly see.

its clear that you were totally anaerobic during your race. Thats a clear indication that you need to either back off your race pace to something you can handle or build your aerobic fitness high enough to match your goals.

I take it your 135 bpm 4 hour ride is fairly comfortable(HR is only useful relative to your own fitness and your own heart but relative to the 165-170 bpm hard rides it sounds pretty comfortable). That sounds an awful lot like old school Long Slow Distance(LSD) training. That can work for some but usually takes a lot more training hours per week to see much improvement from LSD work.

I trained with an LSD base topped off with specific work for many years with inconsistent and overall fairly mediocre results. For the past year or so my core aerobic training is based on Sweet Spot (SST) work along with some longer Tempo(a bit easier but still more effort than traditional LSD) and Threshold(focused time trial pace efforts for 10 to 30 minutes) work. I train about half the hours I used to and my results are better and much more consistent.

The key is to work in the appropriate training levels for long enough durations to target specific energy delivery systems. If you want to improve your core aerobic fitness you need to do efforts(SST, Threshold, or Tempo) that are both steady enough and long enough to encourage adaptations to your aerobic energy delivery systems. LSD training based on fairly comfortable long rides will get you used to being in the saddle and can help train your muscles to store glycogen but they are relatively low stress and it takes an awful lot of that sort of training to see much improvement for a racer(they can be great for a recreational cyclist just getting into cycling but it sounds like you are beyond that point).

Your microintervals can work if the overall average stress (power would be a much better measurement than HR for this) places you in the appropriate training level(Tempo, SST, Threshold) for at least 10 minutes at a stretch and preferably longer. If the average stress(power) is too low and the peak stress is higher than those levels then you are really training anaerobic fitness, not your core aerobic engine. That can be great in the final stages of race preparation and really useful for those times where you really have to dig on a steep single track but it trains the wrong system for steady state speed and power or the ability to hold pace on a long climb.

You should search these forums for discussions about SST, Theshold and FTP and read these threads: http://www.cyclingforums.com/t397725.html
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t314849.html

They are pretty inspiring and although they focus on road fitness the basic aerobic fitness is the same. As an off road rider you will want to work other systems as your fitness improves but there is no sense doing anaerobic work until you get your aerobic fitness up a bit.

I would recommend going from 3 days to 4 or 5 but cutting the durations so the weekly hours work out the same while bumping up the intensity of the long ride(cut to say 2.5-3 hours) and changing the shorter rides to long interval sessions like 2x20 at SST or 2x45 at Tempo(in 1.5 to 2 hour rides). Combine that with some good rest days and decent nutrition and you should see improvement.

Good luck,
Dave
edit-looks like our posts crossed in cyberspace, but yeah +1 on Wiredued's advice.

 

[mdwilliams1us]

Hello Group
This is my first post on this forum although I have been lurking around for a couple of years. I have a training question that I would like to ask concerning intervals.
Tell me the mechanics of a

1-steady state interval and 2-Tempo interval.

I have been riding for about 3 years and attempting some interval training on my own. I see some progress, BUT not enough. I want to increase my speed and build greater endurance for long rides.

 

[wiredued]

Levels
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/levels.asp

The Book
http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794/ref=sr_1_1/102-8435080-1249735?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182279480&sr=8-1

Hello Group
This is my first post on this forum although I have been lurking around for a couple of years. I have a training question that I would like to ask concerning intervals.
Tell me the mechanics of a

1-steady state interval and 2-Tempo interval.

I have been riding for about 3 years and attempting some interval training on my own. I see some progress, BUT not enough. I want to increase my speed and build greater endurance for long rides.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Tell me the mechanics of a ...1-steady state interval

Do you mean Sweet Spot Training(SST) interval? If so that's somewhere between 85% and 95% of your best one hour power for power meter users with the intervals getting longer as the intensity drops to the low end of the range but being at least 10 minutes long and preferably longer even at the 95% end of the intensity range. If you don't have a PM then it's best to just tune into percieved exertion and breathing. It should take focus to stay in SST but shouldn't kill you. The first few minutes should feel steady and relatively comfortable but as the SST interval progresses your breathing gets deep and steady and by the end you're ready to finish especially if you're targeting 20 to 30 minute intervals at the high end of the SST range. If you can hold a conversation or watch the scenery, you're not going hard enough. If your breathing gets ragged and out of control or you can't take a quick drink from your water bottle without slowing down, then you're going too hard and probably won't finish the effort.

If you really do mean Steady State, then that just means that these are steady efforts, no sprints over hills, no coasting on descents(I'm still amazed at how often I can stay in SST down even fairly steep hills if I use all the gears on my bike, I've maintained SST pacing down 40 mph straight descents by dropping into the 12 tooth cog and spinning my brains out). The effort should be as steady as you can make it for the duration unless you're specifically targeting microinterval work and that's a different discussion.

...and 2-Tempo interval.....

Tempo pace is a bit easier than pure SST. You don't necessarily need to break Tempo work into intervals but I often do if I have long uninterrupted rides where I can target half hour to hour and a half efforts. I really like Tempo rides since they feel fast, steady and don't really hurt too much. Just go out and ride your fast comfortable pace that still requires focus but doesn't hurt. You should have no problem drinking from your water bottle during Tempo efforts but again you shouldn't be watching the flowers or coasting unless you need to. Small group rides often average as Tempo pace if you have compatible training partners but I prefer to do them alone so I can really dial in my best pacing.

I define most of my core aerobic training rides as either Tempo/SST or SST/L4 depending on whether I'm working the high end or low end of SST. Tempo rides often drift into low SST for up to half an hour at a time and my second or third L4 intervals often settle down into high SST especially if I hit higher L4 numbers in my first couple of efforts.

The key thing in either of these levels is to stay in level for long enough durations. Don't bother with 2 minute SST efforts. You need to get up into those training levels for at least 10 minutes at a time and longer is better. Most folks rest for at least 5 minutes between efforts but for the Tempo/SST work and even moderate L4 work the rest is more mental than physical since you should be able to sustain L4 intervals for an hour on a good day but that takes a lot of concentration and motivation so we tend to break them into manageable chunks.

Good luck,
Dave
---Dued beat me to the line again....

 

[wiredued]

SST is 76% to 100% FTP from what I've been taught here Sorry for being so quick today it may be my elevated sugar levels from my last critical 1/2 hour refueling.

Do you mean Sweet Spot Training(SST) interval? If so that's somewhere between 85% and 95% of your best one hour ...Dued beat me to the line again....

 

[mdwilliams1us]

Thanks for all of the prompt replies.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

SST is 76% to 100% FTP from what I've been taught here

Yeah, the definition seems to change with time, the book says 88%-94%, I remember Andy posting something about good results down to 85% with increased durations and since the whole aerobic thing is a continuous and non-discrete set of overlapping systems it probably isn't even that hard a line. I guess I end up with the same result by thinking about my workouts as L3/SST or SST/L4 or IOW low and high end SST work. Still 76% seems awfully low intensity for FTP improvement, seems more like endurance pace to me. I guess it works if you do it for long enough in an unbroken effort.

..Sorry for being so quick today it may be my elevated sugar levels from my last critical 1/2 hour refueling.

I figured it was all that sprint training you've been doing, gotta work on my snap

-Dave
P.S. The other thing to keep in mind is that the Sweet Spot is a concept, not really a training level. It represents a tradeoff between high enough intensity to encourage adaptations and low enough stress that we can mentally and physically do it for quite a while. Run it up too high and we won't get enough time there before burning out, drop it too low and we'll have to spend an awful lot of time there to get results. 76% might get the correct adaptations given enough time, but how much time do you have to train? I'm sure you know all this, but I find 85-90% training pretty comfortable so I'd rather spend less time there than more time at lower levels. Just my 2 cents.....

 

[Old n' Lazy]

THanks for all the info!! I've got lots to read up on and I'll post what training I'm doing and some results

 

[Old n' Lazy]

How does this sound for a weekly training schedule?

3hr at Tempo pace
1.5-2hr ride with a 3x3 intervals
1.5-2hr trail ride with 2x20minute SST intervals
1.5-2hr ride with 15x(40sec "on", 20sec "off")

I don't have a a race for 6 weeks or so hopefully I can get a little more prepared for the next race!

 

[daveryanwyoming]

How does this sound for a weekly training schedule?

3hr at Tempo pace
1.5-2hr ride with a 3x3 intervals
1.5-2hr trail ride with 2x20minute SST intervals
1.5-2hr ride with 15x(40sec "on", 20sec "off")

I don't have a a race for 6 weeks or so hopefully I can get a little more prepared for the next race!

It's not a bad starting point assuming there are rest days between one or more of the workouts. I sure wouldn't advocate a 4 day training block followed by 3 rest days. I'd probably do a block of 3 then rest a day or two then one of the rides then rest again before starting over.

One principle I really like is to start my training week or training block with my hardest and shortest workout working to longer and easier efforts each day of a block. That lets you do your hard work when you are most fresh but doesn't tire you out so much with a long and hard effort that you can't do the next hardest workout in the series the following day. It's also nice mentally since every time you finish a workout you know the next day will be easier and usually a bit more fun. It also sets you up well for weekend races since the last workout in a training block is easiest(usually the tempo day for me) and although it's longer it usually doesn't leave me too sore to race.

I don't know what intensity you mean by 40 sec. on, 20 sec. off, but if that's fairly high intensity you'll probably have trouble actually completing that workout. Most harder, short interval work relies on 1:1 or even lower ratio work to rest periods. The average power for a 40 second hard to 20 second easy set of intervals tends to be quite high or you have to back off the "on" periods just to survive. Before crits or other dynamic racing I like to insert some tempo rides with a 10 to 15 second burst every minute or two trying to immediately regain tempo pace after the burst. That's dynamic, simulates the demands of jumping out of crit corners and tempo is pretty comfortable but the average power tends to fall into L4 or Threshold range so I do that workout on a Threshold or high Tempo day. Just a thought if you have trouble with your 40 on, 20 off workout.

Good luck,
Dave