V2 Formula vs GRR



E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> "Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> >
>> > Edward Dolan wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >> I would also recommend that you go with the Cool Mesh Seat as the
>> >> Cobra
>> >> hard
>> >> shell seat is pure hell.
>> >
>> > The mesh back seat with a foam pad over a molded base from Easy Racers
>> > is the "Koolback", not "Cool Mesh".

>>
>> Whatever!

>
> The great Ed Dolan makes a mistake!


I am not a pedant like you and I am also not an industrious beaver like you.
I am too Great to be bothered with trifling details. I am like a fox who
knows things broadly and you are like a hedgehog who knows things narrowly.

>> > --
>> > Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
>> > 0."ahno. the edo comes and goes. you stand there and experience the
>> > edo
>> > unless you are bound by ego
>> > riding a bike is highly valued as a way to experience and sample the
>> > edo" - G. Daniels

>>
>> I don't believe G. Daniels said any of the above at all....

>
> Original post at
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cdbae7e18ba41d13?dmode=source&hl=en>.


Why are you quoting this insane person? None of it make any sense
whatsoever. Remind me never to go to rec.bicycles.tech. I wonder what you
are doing there?

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
R

Roger Houston

Guest
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]

> Anyway, it seemed like a great idea. A bolted together recumbent out of
> aluminum square tubing should be plenty strong enough and it would seem
> like it could be done cheaply and therefore sold at a low price. What am I
> missing I wonder?


strength to weight ratio? A frame of square tubes would have to be somewhat
heavier than its counterpart of round or ovalized tubes if resistance to the
bending of the tubes were held equal, I'd intuitively imagine. Could be
wrong...
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Roger Houston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>> Anyway, it seemed like a great idea. A bolted together recumbent out of
>> aluminum square tubing should be plenty strong enough and it would seem
>> like it could be done cheaply and therefore sold at a low price. What am
>> I missing I wonder?

>
> strength to weight ratio? A frame of square tubes would have to be
> somewhat heavier than its counterpart of round or ovalized tubes if
> resistance to the bending of the tubes were held equal, I'd intuitively
> imagine. Could be wrong...


I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing everything
else being equal. However, there is a great prejudice against it when it
comes to bicycle tubing. I have several recumbents that were built with
square tubing.

I am not a weight freak when it comes to bikes. Most recumbents are going to
weigh around 30 pounds give or take a few pounds. Those who pay an extra
thousand dollars to shave off some weight are just plain crazy in my ever so
humble opinion. In other words, they do not have even an ounce of sense!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
R

Roger Houston

Guest
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
> everything else being equal.


Then why do pole vaulters not use a square pole? Not arguing, just curious.
 

nget

New Member
Feb 24, 2004
332
0
0
Roger Houston said:
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
> everything else being equal.


Then why do pole vaulters not use a square pole? Not arguing, just curious.
Is it because the hole under the bar they are jumping is round? The pole is meant to absorb the energy of the running jumper and give most of that energy back in the upward direction. More important than the shape of the pole would be what the pole is made of.
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Roger Houston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>>
>> I believe square tubing is quite a bit stronger than round tubing
>> everything else being equal.

>
> Then why do pole vaulters not use a square pole? Not arguing, just
> curious.


It is all about weight, but like I have already said I am not into ultimate
lightness. You pay a premium for that and it is not worth it except for
racers. Any racers here? I thought not!

The very best thing most of us could do to lighten our bikes is to take some
weight off of our bodies. But it is easier to spend thousands of extra
dollars than to lose some weight. The former just takes extra work whereas
the latter takes some discipline.

Americans work too hard anyway, but like the donkeys we are we do not seem
to know anything else. Just work, work, work and then spend, spend, spend! I
give you Mr. Sherman as an example of the species, Stupidus americanus.

Now, aren't you glad you asked?

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
J

Johnny Sunset

Guest
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> Americans work too hard anyway, but like the donkeys we are we do not seem
> to know anything else. Just work, work, work and then spend, spend, spend! I
> give you Mr. Sherman as an example of the species, Stupidus americanus....


This is untrue. I spend very little compared to most middle class
USians, especially on categories such as food, entertainment, housing,
transportation, etc. It is not my fault that orphan Earth Cycles show
up periodically looking for homes [1].

As for work, I do what is necessary for maintaining employment, which
often happens to be substantially more than a 40-hour week. Unlike
slothful Ed Dolan, I do not have inherited property I can rent out for
profit, or other sources of UNEARNED income.

[1] I was NOT shopping for recumbents when I purchased Red Sunset,
Purple Sunset or Blue Dragonflyer.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ...
>> Americans work too hard anyway, but like the donkeys we are we do not
>> seem
>> to know anything else. Just work, work, work and then spend, spend,
>> spend! I
>> give you Mr. Sherman as an example of the species, Stupidus
>> americanus....

>
> This is untrue. I spend very little compared to most middle class
> USians, especially on categories such as food, entertainment, housing,
> transportation, etc. It is not my fault that orphan Earth Cycles show
> up periodically looking for homes [1].
>
> As for work, I do what is necessary for maintaining employment, which
> often happens to be substantially more than a 40-hour week. Unlike
> slothful Ed Dolan, I do not have inherited property I can rent out for
> profit, or other sources of UNEARNED income.


Ed Dolan is very proud of his slothfulness. It is the very best thing about
him. He does the least harm to the world by being so slothful. Others should
imitate him instead of criticizing him. Ed Dolan says go forth and be
slothful!

As for UNEARNED income, my father earned it for me. Must we keep repeating
with every generation the cycle of work? My father worked so I don't have
to. Makes perfect sense to me! The trick to a nice lifestyle is to know when
to be born so that you can be the generation that does not have to slave
away at a job - like Tom Sherman does apparently. I was born lucky, he was
born unlucky.

That is enuf wisdom for one message for one day.

But something is very wrong with Mr. Sherman's telling of his situation. He
has a very good job as a civil engineer, he is not married and does not have
10 children to support. Hells Bells, he ought to have the world by the tail.
There is some deep dark secret (perhaps a hidden vice) which the newsgroup
needs to know about. The only thing I can think of is that Mr. Sherman plays
the horses and loses all of his hard earned money at the race track.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
R

Roger Houston

Guest
"nget" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>>
>> Then why do pole vaulters not use a square pole? Not arguing, just
>> curious.

> Is it because the hole under the bar they are jumping is round? The
> pole is meant to absorb the energy of the running jumper and give most
> of that energy back in the upward direction. More important than the
> shape of the pole would be what the pole is made of.


Again, I'm approaching this from an intuitive standpoint and not meaning to
be argumentative. But it would seem that the strength-to-weight ratio of
the pole would be a critical design consideration. I suppose that an
ergonomic grip would be important as well, but if I remember right (I was a
shot-putter) the socket into which the base of the pole is set is more
rectangular than round.

I still intuitively believe a round tube to be inherently stronger than a
rectangular one for a given wall thickness and weight of material. But,
again, I could be wrong. My son is a mechanical engineer (but he didn't get
his smarts from my side of the family...) so I'll ask him sometime.
 
J

Johnny Sunset

Guest
Edward Dolan wrote:
> ...
> >> I don't believe G. Daniels said any of the above at all....

> >
> > Original post at
> > <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cdbae7e18ba41d13?dmode=source&hl=en>.

>
> Why are you quoting this insane person? None of it make any sense
> whatsoever....


Mr. Daniels is an intelligent person who has decided to make an art
form by deliberately mangling the English language. To do it as well as
he does requires considerable talent.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
 
J

Johnny Sunset

Guest
Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> >...
> >> > The argument could be made that titanium/titanium alloy is not a
> >> > sensible choice for a bicycle frame unless greater than normal
> >> > corrosion resistance is required. A lighter frame can be made from
> >> > aluminium alloy, and will still be durable enough to last for tens of
> >> > thousands of miles of riding, while steel can be used at much lower
> >> > cost for only a minimal weight penalty. However, titanium has achieved
> >> > a certain cachet through marketing [1], and therefore is used in many
> >> > products where it is not the best choice based on value engineering.
> >>
> >> Anyone who buys an expensive bicycle made from esoteric tubing has more
> >> money than brains. What else is new?

> >
> > 4130 "Cro-moly" steel is a good compromise between material cost, ease
> > of fabrication and weight. That is why many mid-level bicycles (and
> > most steel frame recumbents) are made from 4130 steel.

>
> Agreed!


I should mention that titanium/titanium alloy may be a very poor choice
in some applications. Since titanium/titanium alloy is weaker than high
strength steel, a greater cross-section and/or moment of inertia is
needed to provide equivalent strength and/or stiffness. Where the size
of the part is constrained, e.g. pedal spindles and square taper bottom
bracket (BB) spindles, titanium will not provide adequate durability
for long term use [1]. Not only is the use of titanium/titanium alloy
not cost effective in these situations, it may be considered dangerous,
since breakage of a pedal or BB spindle usually leads to loss of
control on an upright bicycle (likely less so, but still possible on a
recumbent).

Even with frames, the use of titanium/titanium alloy is no guarantee of
longer life. Indeed, in some tests titanium alloy frames failed before
aluminium alloy frames:
<http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/EFBe/frame_fatigue_test.htm>. [2]

As usual, proper engineering and manufacturing are more important than
the actual material used. If anyone tries to sell titanium/titanium
alloy as a "magic" material, they are either "blowing smoke" or lack
fundamental understanding of materials science and engineering.

[1] Contrary to myth, titanium and titanium alloy have endurance limits
[3] above which they will fatigue.
[2] It should be noted that there is controversy as to how well these
tests relate to typical riding induced fatigue.
[3] Endurance and fatigue limits listed in material property table have
been determined on relatively uniform specimens. Most titanium bicycles
parts will have stress risers from forming or machining, while frames
will also have stress risers from unavoidable micro-defects in the
welds. These parts will not achieve the lifespan predicted by the
fatigue tests.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Roger Houston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
[...]
> I still intuitively believe a round tube to be inherently stronger than a
> rectangular one for a given wall thickness and weight of material. But,
> again, I could be wrong. My son is a mechanical engineer (but he didn't
> get his smarts from my side of the family...) so I'll ask him sometime.


I do recall reading that a square tube was stronger than a round tube,
everything else being equal. But it may be that a square tube in order to be
stronger must also be slightly heavier.

Bicycles could just as easily be made out of square tubes as round tubes,
but the esthetics are against it. Round tubes just look so much nicer. I am
one of the very few who like the looks of square tubes.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
E

Edward Dolan

Guest
"Johnny Sunset" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>> ...
>> >> I don't believe G. Daniels said any of the above at all....
>> >
>> > Original post at
>> > <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/cdbae7e18ba41d13?dmode=source&hl=en>.

>>
>> Why are you quoting this insane person? None of it make any sense
>> whatsoever....

>
> Mr. Daniels is an intelligent person who has decided to make an art
> form by deliberately mangling the English language. To do it as well as
> he does requires considerable talent.


Nonsense! All of our recent presidents are world experts at mangling the
language. Eisenhower was a genius at it and Bush isn't bad at it either.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota