Valves separating from inner tubes

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by MikeT, Oct 11, 2004.

  1. MikeT

    MikeT Guest

    In the past 6 months, I've had to replace 4 (count 'em) inner tubes
    that failed just at the base of the valve as I've been pumping up the
    tires.

    The valves are presta and I'm using a Zefal HPx which locks onto the
    valve... am I just a muppet with poor tire-inflation-technique, or a
    victim of shoddy inner tubes? It's getting depressing.
     
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  2. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    MikeT wrote:
    > In the past 6 months, I've had to replace 4 (count 'em) inner tubes
    > that failed just at the base of the valve as I've been pumping up the
    > tires.
    >
    > The valves are presta and I'm using a Zefal HPx which locks onto the
    > valve... am I just a muppet with poor tire-inflation-technique, or a
    > victim of shoddy inner tubes? It's getting depressing.


    Probably the latter, try a differnet brand of tube (or yet another brand).
    Also don't use valve lockrings. They can draw the valve too far into the
    rim, and it's better to allow the valve to move with the tube as the tube
    naturally gets tugged about a bit during tyre fitting, etc, I reckon.

    I've had no such failures with Michelin tubes with an HPX pump (but have
    done with other tubes, and pumps).

    ~PB
     
  3. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    Pete Biggs wrote:
    >
    > MikeT wrote:
    > > In the past 6 months, I've had to replace 4 (count 'em) inner tubes
    > > that failed just at the base of the valve as I've been pumping up the
    > > tires.
    > >
    > > The valves are presta and I'm using a Zefal HPx which locks onto the
    > > valve... am I just a muppet with poor tire-inflation-technique, or a
    > > victim of shoddy inner tubes? It's getting depressing.

    >
    > Probably the latter, try a differnet brand of tube (or yet another brand).
    > Also don't use valve lockrings. They can draw the valve too far into the
    > rim, and it's better to allow the valve to move with the tube as the tube
    > naturally gets tugged about a bit during tyre fitting, etc, I reckon.


    Leaving off the lockring can cause the valve to shift quite a bit from
    the vertical as the tube creeps inside the cover. This can place
    pressure on the tube/valve junction as well as make it difficult to put
    the pump onto the valve, but you are right about it pulling the valve
    base into the rim.
    Having also experienced a few failures at this point I now make rubber
    washers out of old tubes and place them over the valve before fitting
    acting as a protection between valve base and the edges of the valve
    hole inside the rim.
    At least I haven't had such a failure since doing this <searches for
    wood to touch>.

    John B
     
  4. KakenBetaal

    KakenBetaal New Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    197
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    0
    Rubber washer - that's a top idea I shall institute shortly. I've had too many failures like this as well.
     
  5. I had many similar failures, mainly with Specialized tubes, especially
    if they'd been lying aroun unused for a while. I don't know if th tubes
    were old and rubber starting to perish, or whether overstretching (28mm
    being the upper limit of specified for the long-stem tubes) caused the
    problem.

    I'd advise checking all 'spare' inner tubes annually, at least.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    Edgware.
     
  6. "Helen Deborah Vecht" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >I had many similar failures, mainly with Specialized tubes, especially
    > if they'd been lying aroun unused for a while. I don't know if th tubes
    > were old and rubber starting to perish, or whether overstretching (28mm
    > being the upper limit of specified for the long-stem tubes) caused the
    > problem.
    >
    > I'd advise checking all 'spare' inner tubes annually, at least.
    >
    > --
    > Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    > Edgware.


    I had a spate of this once and wondered whether it was the citrus cleaner I
    was using it that was somehow affecting the joint. I've never really trusted
    citrus cleaners since.

    Regards, Bob
     
  7. On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:08:25 +0100, "bob watkinson"
    <[email protected]inson.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote:

    >I had a spate of this once and wondered whether it was the citrus cleaner I
    >was using it that was somehow affecting the joint.


    Citrus cleaners not popular in Holland, then...

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  8. "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:08:25 +0100, "bob watkinson"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>I had a spate of this once and wondered whether it was the citrus cleaner
    >>I
    >>was using it that was somehow affecting the joint.

    >
    > Citrus cleaners not popular in Holland, then...


    It maybe your being to subtle for me here Guy, Holland - I live in
    Perthshire, forgive me if I'm missing something.
    >
    > Guy
    > --
    > May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    > http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
    >
    > 88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  9. soup

    soup Guest

    bob watkinson popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on
    and said
    > "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:08:25 +0100, "bob watkinson"
    > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > I had a spate of this once and wondered whether it was the citrus
    > > > cleaner I
    > > > was using it that was somehow affecting the joint.

    > >
    > > Citrus cleaners not popular in Holland, then...

    >
    > It maybe your being to subtle for me here Guy, Holland - I live in
    > Perthshire, forgive me if I'm missing something.


    Joint is a name commonly applied to "herbal" cigarettes
    these "herbs" are not illegal in Holland.

    --
    yours S

    Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione
     
  10. "soup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > bob watkinson popped their head over the parapet saw what was going on
    > and said
    >> "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]
    >> > On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:08:25 +0100, "bob watkinson"
    >> > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > > I had a spate of this once and wondered whether it was the citrus
    >> > > cleaner I
    >> > > was using it that was somehow affecting the joint.
    >> >
    >> > Citrus cleaners not popular in Holland, then...

    >>
    >> It maybe your being to subtle for me here Guy, Holland - I live in
    >> Perthshire, forgive me if I'm missing something.

    >
    > Joint is a name commonly applied to "herbal" cigarettes
    > these "herbs" are not illegal in Holland.


    I knew it. Way to subtle for me :)
    >
    > --
    > yours S
    >
    > Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione
    >
    >
     
  11. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    "JohnB" wrote:
    > Leaving off the lockring can cause the valve to shift quite a bit from
    > the vertical as the tube creeps inside the cover. This can place
    > pressure on the tube/valve junction as well as make it difficult to put
    > the pump onto the valve


    If there is going to be some creeping, I'd rather the valve creeped with the
    tube. It would have to creep a lot before the valve was at a problematic
    angle, and that doesn't tend to happen if the tube & tyre is fitted
    carefully in the first place, in my experience.

    ~PB
     
  12. KakenBetaal

    KakenBetaal New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interestingly my failures were also on Specialized tubes, also on 20-28mm tubes in a 28mm tyre.
     
  13. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    Pete Biggs wrote:
    >
    > "JohnB" wrote:
    > > Leaving off the lockring can cause the valve to shift quite a bit from
    > > the vertical as the tube creeps inside the cover. This can place
    > > pressure on the tube/valve junction as well as make it difficult to put
    > > the pump onto the valve

    >
    > If there is going to be some creeping, I'd rather the valve creeped with the
    > tube. It would have to creep a lot before the valve was at a problematic
    > angle, and that doesn't tend to happen if the tube & tyre is fitted
    > carefully in the first place, in my experience.


    I see a lot of bikes when I take groups for basic maintenance where the
    valve is at an extreme angle. Sometimes it is _very_ hard to get the
    valve upright enough to fit a pump head. It seems to occur more with
    schraeders, perhaps because few fit locknuts on them.

    This evening I was with a group of cubs where an inner tube was pulled
    completely apart.
    However I was trying to fit as many cubs as possible into it ;-)
    25 fitted in plus a couple of adults before the tube gave way.

    John B
     
  14. KakenBetaal <[email protected]>typed

    > Helen Deborah Vecht Wrote:
    > > I had many similar failures, mainly with Specialized tubes, especially
    > > if they'd been lying aroun unused for a while. I don't know if th
    > > tubes
    > > were old and rubber starting to perish, or whether overstretching
    > > (28mm
    > > being the upper limit of specified for the long-stem tubes) caused the
    > > problem.
    > >
    > > I'd advise checking all 'spare' inner tubes annually, at least.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    > > Edgware.


    > Interestingly my failures were also on Specialized tubes, also on
    > 20-28mm tubes in a 28mm tyre.


    Since I seldom had the problem with Michelin, I suspect in may be a
    Specialized problem. I don't think the way the valve was seated caused
    the problem either. The tube failed a short distance - about half an
    inch- from the valve stem where the valve stem patch joined the main
    body of the tube.

    /¯¯¯\
    / \
    ( O )
    \ /
    \___/

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    Edgware.
     
  15. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    JohnB wrote:
    > Pete Biggs wrote:
    >>
    >> "JohnB" wrote:
    >>> Leaving off the lockring can cause the valve to shift quite a bit
    >>> from the vertical as the tube creeps inside the cover.


    Yes a lockring will prevent shifting but leaving it off doesn't *cause* the
    shifting.

    >>> This can place
    >>> pressure on the tube/valve junction


    Maybe during pumping but there would also be strain there from whatever is
    causing the shifting.

    >>> as well as make it difficult to
    >>> put the pump onto the valve

    >>
    >> If there is going to be some creeping, I'd rather the valve creeped
    >> with the tube. It would have to creep a lot before the valve was at
    >> a problematic angle, and that doesn't tend to happen if the tube &
    >> tyre is fitted carefully in the first place, in my experience.

    >
    > I see a lot of bikes when I take groups for basic maintenance where
    > the valve is at an extreme angle.


    I reckon that's because the tyres & tubes weren't fitted properly in the
    first place, or the tyre has been used/left in a deflated state.

    > Sometimes it is _very_ hard to get the
    > valve upright enough to fit a pump head. It seems to occur more with
    > schraeders, perhaps because few fit locknuts on them.


    I know it's very common but using a lockring is a poor solution, I think.
    Those people can be taught how to properly fit a tube straight without a
    lockring, and to keep their tyres pumped up, then the valve will stay
    straight enough.

    It's not easy to get it perfect with loose-fitting tyres but the valve
    shouldn't end up at an extreme angle if the tube wasn't stretched at on side
    of valve during fitting, and the tyre is kept inflated.

    Of course I've had valves go very wonky myself, but everything has been fine
    after refitting more carefully, all without a lockring. I don't believe
    tubes or tyres continue to creep/slip for long once the tyre is properly
    inflated. There might be a bit at first while things normalise.

    In any case, one trick that really helps alignment is to *start* fitting the
    tyre at the valve. Finishing away from the valve does increase risk of
    pinching the tube, but that can be avoided if careful.

    ~PB
     
  16. Steve Peake

    Steve Peake Guest

    On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:18:30 +0100, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

    > I had many similar failures, mainly with Specialized tubes, especially
    > if they'd been lying aroun unused for a while. I don't know if th tubes
    > were old and rubber starting to perish, or whether overstretching (28mm
    > being the upper limit of specified for the long-stem tubes) caused the
    > problem.


    I've killed a few specialized tubes in the same manner, I assumed it was
    just because I'm using a short valve in a deep section rim but seeing this
    it makes you wonder.

    Steve
     
  17. Whingin' Pom

    Whingin' Pom Guest

    On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 06:20:49 GMT, Steve Peake <[email protected]>
    () wrote:

    >On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 14:18:30 +0100, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
    >
    >> I had many similar failures, mainly with Specialized tubes, especially
    >> if they'd been lying aroun unused for a while. I don't know if th tubes
    >> were old and rubber starting to perish, or whether overstretching (28mm
    >> being the upper limit of specified for the long-stem tubes) caused the
    >> problem.

    >
    >I've killed a few specialized tubes in the same manner, I assumed it was
    >just because I'm using a short valve in a deep section rim but seeing this
    >it makes you wonder.


    SWMBO had a run of flats like this. Velox rim tape (there can be only
    one!) cured it, but I can't recall if we changed brands of tube at
    that point, too...
    --
    Matt K.
    "Did you play in the garden of Eden? Were the goalkeepers gloves to you tossed?
    For it seems to me you're the reason, you're the reason why Paradise lost."
     
  18. Jack Ouzzi

    Jack Ouzzi Guest

    On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 01:50:13 +0100, "Pete Biggs" <[email protected]{remove
    fruit}.tc> wrote:



    >In any case, one trick that really helps alignment is to *start* fitting the
    >tyre at the valve. Finishing away from the valve does increase risk of
    >pinching the tube, but that can be avoided if careful.
    >
    >~PB
    >


    I agree with the whole of Pete's post (Peter Post .. wasn't he a team
    manager at one time??)

    Correct fitting and inflation pressures are they key here. One of the
    causes of failure is the sideways pressure exerted by the 'push on'
    type pump, (small of large) on the valve stem. I have a high pressure
    'mini pump' for out on the road, but carry an adaptor (that small
    rubber tube that you screws into the old fashioned type of pump) I use
    this between pump and valve to eliminate that sideways pressure.

    Preventative maintenance :)

    M
     
  19. MikeT

    MikeT Guest

    KakenBetaal <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Helen Deborah Vecht Wrote:
    > > I had many similar failures, mainly with Specialized tubes, especially
    > > if they'd been lying aroun unused for a while. I don't know if th
    > > tubes
    > > were old and rubber starting to perish, or whether overstretching
    > > (28mm
    > > being the upper limit of specified for the long-stem tubes) caused the
    > > problem.
    > >
    > > I'd advise checking all 'spare' inner tubes annually, at least.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
    > > Edgware.

    >
    > Interestingly my failures were also on Specialized tubes, also on
    > 20-28mm tubes in a 28mm tyre.


    Hmm - I spot a pattern - all the failures I've had have been with
    Specialized tubes too (but 28-38mm tubes in a 34 tyre). I remember
    when I first got one that the valve was much longer than usual, so
    maybe its a combination of manufacture, too tight a lockring pulling
    the whole thing right up to the rim and more leverage on the valve
    from the pump.

    Might try and find a different brand for my new spares.
     
  20. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    Pete Biggs wrote:
    >
    > JohnB wrote:
    > > Pete Biggs wrote:
    > >>
    > >> "JohnB" wrote:
    > >>> Leaving off the lockring can cause the valve to shift quite a bit
    > >>> from the vertical as the tube creeps inside the cover.

    >
    > Yes a lockring will prevent shifting but leaving it off doesn't *cause* the
    > shifting.


    OK. wrong word. Try "result in".
    Better?

    > I know it's very common but using a lockring is a poor solution, I think.
    > Those people can be taught how to properly fit a tube straight without a
    > lockring, and to keep their tyres pumped up, then the valve will stay
    > straight enough.


    Trying to get the average parent to do proper bike maintenance on their
    kid's bike is near impossible. Most haven't a clue, let alone a bike
    pump :-(

    > In any case, one trick that really helps alignment is to *start* fitting the
    > tyre at the valve. Finishing away from the valve does increase risk of
    > pinching the tube, but that can be avoided if careful.


    That's also the easiest way to fit a tyre anyway, IME.
    I was unawrae anyone did any different.

    John B
     
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