What percentage of a cholesterol decrease can be attributed to statins ?

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: Thorsten Schier wrote:
:
: > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
: > >
: > > Joe Smigiel wrote:
: > >
: > [...]
: > > > and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
: > > > carbs...)
: > >
: > > Carbs don't cause obesity.
: >
: > A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that.
:
: If that were true, it should be easy for you to cite research studies
: describing carbohydrates causing obesity.
:
: Please don't cite Dr. Atkins:
:
: (1) He's dead.
:
: (2) He wasn't a scientist. Being a diet guru was not the same.
:
: > However
: > that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
: > people to lose weight.
:
: Cutting out anything will cause weight loss. Problem is that research
: studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success rates..
:
what do you consider 'long-term' ?

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight.

Cutting out anything will cause weight loss. Problem is that research
studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success rates..

There don't appear to BE any long-term studies of Atkin's or other low-carb
diets. The short-term studies are favorable.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Lowering carbs may or may not be a good thing. Lowering refined carbs
is very likely good. Before overdosing on protein, I urge you to read
the Harvard School of Public Health's opinion of too much protein - in
a nutshell, getting over 1 gram of protein per kilo of bodyweight may
be dangerous http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html
Lowering carbs may make sense if you are increasing "good" fats.

Thorsten Schier <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Joe Smigiel wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
carbs...)

Carbs don't cause obesity.

A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that. However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight. In addition, it offers a whole host of other
health benefits like reduced bloodpressure and lower triglcerides. If
you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the book "Protein
Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.

Thorsten

Brad Sheppard schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Lowering carbs may or may not be a good thing. Lowering refined carbs
is very likely good. Before overdosing on protein, I urge you to read
the Harvard School of Public Health's opinion of too much protein - in
a nutshell, getting over 1 gram of protein per kilo of bodyweight may
be dangerous http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html
Lowering carbs may make sense if you are increasing "good" fats.

Thank you for this interesting link. However, if I didn't overlook
something important, they are not so negative about much protein. The
worst likely problem seems to be that a high protein diet may weaken the
bones. Taking a calcium supplement might prevent this problem. On the
positive side:

" In the Nurses' Health Study, women who ate the most protein (about 110
grams per day) were 25 percent less likely to have had a heart attack or
to have died of heart disease than the women who ate the least protein
(about 68 grams per day) over a 14-year period."

I notice that they don't mention that a high protein diet might be a
strain on the kidneys, something you can sometimes hear.

So basically you have the choice between a higher risk of broken bones
and a higher risk of heart attack. I think I'm going for the broken
bones.

Eating good fats is certainly a goog idea, that is, if you can tell me
what the good fats are. There seems to be a considerable amount of
uncertainty about this. The authors of the article you cited seem to
think that saturated fat is somehow unhealthy. I would like to see a
study that this is really true.

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Joe Smigiel wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

> and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
> carbs...)

Carbs don't cause obesity.

A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that.

If that were true, it should be easy for you to cite research studies
describing carbohydrates causing obesity.

Please don't cite Dr. Atkins:

(1) He's dead.

(2) He wasn't a scientist. Being a diet guru was not the same.

I didn't say there were studies that show that carbohydrates cause
obesity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight.

Cutting out anything will cause weight loss.

But if you are insulinresistent, and a vast majority of obese persons
are, cutting out fat and protein leaves you hungry most of the time
because it
produces reactive hypoglycaemias. Besides you have a high level of
insulin in your blood which tends to prevent wheight loss.

Quoted message said:

Problem is that research
studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success rates..

Could you point to such a study? Of course people have to stick to this
way of life, if they return to the old eating habits, they will again
gain wheight.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, it offers a whole host of other
health benefits like reduced bloodpressure

That happens from losing weight.

No. Hyperinsulinemia (elevated levels of insulin in the blood) causes
fluid retension and thus high bloodpressure (there are other ways
insulin promotes high bloodpressure, but this is probably most
important). As lowcarb diets reduce the amount of insulin in the blood,
the bloodpressure goes down. This works even in people who are not
overweight to begin with.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and lower triglcerides.

This also happens largely from losing weight.

Again, no. If you honestly believe this, I urge you to inform yourself
about this, to the benefit of your patients.

To get you started:

"Triglycerides. The most dramatic and
consistent lipid response to a very-low-carbo-hydrate
diet is a moderate to large decrease in
fasting triglyceride levels and postprandial
triglyceride responses to a fat-rich meal,14
both independent risk factors for cardiovascu-lar disease.15,16
[...]
Paradoxically, a low-fat/high-carbohy-drate
diet exacerbates atherogenic dyslipi-demia
if the patient does not lose a significant
amount of weight or increase his or her level
of physical activity.26,27 However, a very-low-carbohydrate
diet improves all aspects of
atherogenic dyslipidemia, decreasing fasting
and postprandial triglyceride levels, increasing
HDL, increasing LDL size, and decreasing
insulin, independent of weight loss.14,23"

Volek and Westman, Very-low-carbohydrate weight-loss diets revisited -
Cleveland clinic journal of Medicine, Volume 69 - Number 11 - November
2002, pp. 849-862
(http://atkins.com/img/assets/862/Volekand_Westman_Ketogenic_Review.pdf)

"These results indicate that the effects of lowfat diets on lipoprotein
metabolism are not limited to higher fasting plasma triglyceride and
lower HDL cholesterol concentrations, but also include a persistent
elevation in RLPs. Given the atherogenic potential of these changes in
lipoprotein metabolism, it seems appropriate to question the wisdom of
recommending that all Americans should replace dietary saturated fat
with CHO."

Abbasi F. et al., High carbohydrate diets, triglyceride-rich
lipoproteins, and coronary heart disease risk. - Am J Cardiol. 2000 Jan
1;85(1):45-8.
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11078235&dopt=Abstract)

"Improvements in plasma lipids induced by the ad libitum consumption of
a high-CHO diet seem to be partly mediated by changes in body weight,
whereas lipid changes induced by the high-MUFA diet seem to be
independent of changes in body weight."

Archer WR. et al., Variations in body composition and plasma lipids in
response to a high-carbohydrate diet. - Obes Res. 2003 Aug;11(8):978-86.

Quoted message said:

Without carbohydrates, there will be hyperketonemia. This is not a good
thing physiologically.

Now this is funny, because you are promoting a diet on which many
dieters may be in ketosis as well, at least according to your reasoning.

Some time ago you stated in this group:

"Irrespective of the insulin, if someone is catabolizing a large amount
of fat
(ie 40 lbs) in a short period of time (ie in less than 8 months), it is
likely
they are inadvertantly ketogenic (not enough carbs for the amount of
catabolized
fat). It is the ketosis that is bad for the arteries, IMO."

(http://groups.google.de/groups?q=g:thl1227282846d&dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3E559E88.2CD6A290%40heartmdphd.com)

Now the person the discussion was all about lost this weight on Ornish,
that is a very high carbohydrate diet.

A person following your two-pound approach and eating a more balanced
diet would get much less carbohydrates and therefore likely be in
ketosis if he is losing moderate amounts of fat, at least according to
what you stated in the discussion I cited.

Or think about all those poor POWs of Camp Cropper who, according to
Mu_nstruck, came from obese to thin in a matter of months, on a diet
allegedly not unlike your two-pound diet. They must have been in deep
ketosis.

(<[email hidden]>😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If
you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the book "Protein
Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.

I prefer peer-reviewed journal article to books like "Protein Power."

The latter sounds too much like "White Power."

Do you really think you can discredit the work of the Eades' with this,
er, association of yours?

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)

"M. Schwartz" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Joe Smigiel wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

> and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
> carbs...)

Carbs don't cause obesity.

A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that. However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight. In addition, it offers a whole host of other
health benefits like reduced bloodpressure and lower triglcerides. If
you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the book "Protein
Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.

Thorsten

I'll agree with you that cutting out refined carbohydrates is a good thing,
but complex carbohydrates serve a very important nutritional function.

I eat lots of complex carbs and I'm 5'7 3/4" tall without shoes and weigh
131 pounds before breakfast, and, my triglyceride level is 65. Blood
pressure at last reading was 118/70.

Then you are probably fortunate enough not to be very insulin resistant.
Those of us who are, would likely be in trouble with your way of eating.

Thorsten

--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"

(Theodosius Dobzhansky)

Thorsten Schier said:

Brad Sheppard schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Lowering carbs may or may not be a good thing. Lowering refined carbs
is very likely good. Before overdosing on protein, I urge you to read
the Harvard School of Public Health's opinion of too much protein - in
a nutshell, getting over 1 gram of protein per kilo of bodyweight may
be dangerous http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html
Lowering carbs may make sense if you are increasing "good" fats.

Thank you for this interesting link. However, if I didn't overlook
something important, they are not so negative about much protein. The
worst likely problem seems to be that a high protein diet may weaken the
bones. Taking a calcium supplement might prevent this problem. On the
positive side:

" In the Nurses' Health Study, women who ate the most protein (about 110
grams per day) were 25 percent less likely to have had a heart attack or
to have died of heart disease than the women who ate the least protein
(about 68 grams per day) over a 14-year period."

I notice that they don't mention that a high protein diet might be a
strain on the kidneys, something you can sometimes hear.

So basically you have the choice between a higher risk of broken bones
and a higher risk of heart attack. I think I'm going for the broken
bones.

Eating good fats is certainly a goog idea, that is, if you can tell me
what the good fats are. There seems to be a considerable amount of
uncertainty about this. The authors of the article you cited seem to
think that saturated fat is somehow unhealthy. I would like to see a
study that this is really true.

Thorsten

Good fats are olive oil, fatty fish like salmon, sardines, and herring, and
nuts.

Have you considered that a very low carbohydrate diet is a vehicle for
certain forms of cancer? All carbs are not the same. Complex carbs offer
nutrition and _fiber_.

What do you consider good fats? Steak? :-) Bacon? :-)) Frankfurters? :-)))

Mel

Thorsten Schier said:

"M. Schwartz" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Joe Smigiel wrote:
>
[...]
>> and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
>> carbs...)
>
> Carbs don't cause obesity.

A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that. However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight. In addition, it offers a whole host of other
health benefits like reduced bloodpressure and lower triglcerides. If
you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the book "Protein
Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.

Thorsten

I'll agree with you that cutting out refined carbohydrates is a good thing,
but complex carbohydrates serve a very important nutritional function.

I eat lots of complex carbs and I'm 5'7 3/4" tall without shoes and weigh
131 pounds before breakfast, and, my triglyceride level is 65. Blood
pressure at last reading was 118/70.

Then you are probably fortunate enough not to be very insulin resistant.
Those of us who are, would likely be in trouble with your way of eating.

Thorsten

But you do understand that I am eating complex carbohydrates? I do not eat
any refined carbohydrates.

I don't know if it's relevant but my vitamin/mineral/antioxidant regimen
includes chromium which I believe is supposed to have some positive effect
on blood sugar and insulin resistance.

I can assure you that I am not really knowledgeable about insulin
resistance.

Mel

Jim Chinnis said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight.

Cutting out anything will cause weight loss. Problem is that research
studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success rates..

There don't appear to BE any long-term studies of Atkin's or other low-carb
diets. The short-term studies are favorable.

See:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/14/1792?etoc

This is hardly favorable.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Joe Smigiel wrote:
>
[...]
> > and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
> > carbs...)
>
> Carbs don't cause obesity.

A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that.

If that were true, it should be easy for you to cite research studies
describing carbohydrates causing obesity.

Please don't cite Dr. Atkins:

(1) He's dead.

(2) He wasn't a scientist. Being a diet guru was not the same.

I didn't say there were studies that show that carbohydrates cause
obesity.

Go ahead and reread what you wrote and follow the logic of the discourse.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight.

Cutting out anything will cause weight loss.

But if you are insulinresistent, and a vast majority of obese persons
are, cutting out fat and protein leaves you hungry most of the time

Cutting out anything is going to cause some hunger. Hyperketonemia to suppress hunger is not a good thing.

Quoted message said:

because it
produces reactive hypoglycaemias.

Hypoglycemia in insulin-resistant individuals come largely from overconsumption of simple sugars and not from cutting
out either fat or protein.

Quoted message said:

Besides you have a high level of
insulin in your blood which tends to prevent wheight loss.

Insulin resistance leading to need for elevated levels of insulin happen *after* weight gain and not before.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Problem is that research
studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success rates..

Could you point to such a study?

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/14/1792?etoc

Quoted message said:

Of course people have to stick to this
way of life, if they return to the old eating habits, they will again
gain wheight.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, it offers a whole host of other
health benefits like reduced bloodpressure

That happens from losing weight.

No.

Sorry, yes.

Quoted message said:

Hyperinsulinemia (elevated levels of insulin in the blood) causes
fluid retension and thus high bloodpressure (there are other ways
insulin promotes high bloodpressure, but this is probably most
important).

If that were true, then medications lowering insulin levels (by increasing insulin sensitivity) would be known for
blood pressure lowering properties. They aren't.

Quoted message said:

As lowcarb diets reduce the amount of insulin in the blood,
the bloodpressure goes down.

With LC diets blood pressure does down with weightloss +/- diuresis and vasodilatory effects of hyperketonemia.

Quoted message said:

This works even in people who are not
overweight to begin with.

See above.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and lower triglcerides.

This also happens largely from losing weight.

Again, no. If you honestly believe this, I urge you to inform yourself
about this, to the benefit of your patients.

To get you started:

"Triglycerides. The most dramatic and
consistent lipid response to a very-low-carbo-hydrate
diet is a moderate to large decrease in
fasting triglyceride levels and postprandial
triglyceride responses to a fat-rich meal,14
both independent risk factors for cardiovascu-lar disease.15,16

Actually triglycerides have been shown to be a CAD risk factor primarily in those with metabolic syndrome and not in
other folks..

Quoted message said:

[...]
Paradoxically, a low-fat/high-carbohy-drate
diet exacerbates atherogenic dyslipi-demia
if the patient does not lose a significant
amount of weight or increase his or her level
of physical activity.26,27

Therefore, when there is weight loss, triglycerides will be lowered independent of whether the diet is LC or HC.

Quoted message said:

However, a very-low-carbohydrate
diet improves all aspects of
atherogenic dyslipidemia, decreasing fasting
and postprandial triglyceride levels, increasing
HDL, increasing LDL size, and decreasing
insulin, independent of weight loss.14,23"

Ime, this effect has not been independent of weight loss. Without weight loss, LC dieters rarely improve their lipid
profile.

Quoted message said:

Volek and Westman, Very-low-carbohydrate weight-loss diets revisited -
Cleveland clinic journal of Medicine, Volume 69 - Number 11 - November
2002, pp. 849-862
(http://atkins.com/img/assets/862/Volekand_Westman_Ketogenic_Review.pdf)

"These results indicate that the effects of lowfat diets on lipoprotein
metabolism are not limited to higher fasting plasma triglyceride and
lower HDL cholesterol concentrations, but also include a persistent
elevation in RLPs. Given the atherogenic potential of these changes in
lipoprotein metabolism, it seems appropriate to question the wisdom of
recommending that all Americans should replace dietary saturated fat
with CHO."

The wiser recommendation is for folks to eat less across the board.

Quoted message said:

Abbasi F. et al., High carbohydrate diets, triglyceride-rich
lipoproteins, and coronary heart disease risk. - Am J Cardiol. 2000 Jan
1;85(1):45-8.
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11078235&dopt=Abstract)

"Improvements in plasma lipids induced by the ad libitum consumption of
a high-CHO diet seem to be partly mediated by changes in body weight,
whereas lipid changes induced by the high-MUFA diet seem to be
independent of changes in body weight."

Archer WR. et al., Variations in body composition and plasma lipids in
response to a high-carbohydrate diet. - Obes Res. 2003 Aug;11(8):978-86.

Quoted message said:

Without carbohydrates, there will be hyperketonemia. This is not a good
thing physiologically.

Now this is funny, because you are promoting a diet on which many
dieters may be in ketosis as well, at least according to your reasoning.

Some time ago you stated in this group:

"Irrespective of the insulin, if someone is catabolizing a large amount
of fat
(ie 40 lbs) in a short period of time (ie in less than 8 months), it is
likely
they are inadvertantly ketogenic (not enough carbs for the amount of
catabolized
fat). It is the ketosis that is bad for the arteries, IMO."

(http://groups.google.de/groups?q=g:thl1227282846d&dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3E559E88.2CD6A290%40heartmdphd.com)

Now the person the discussion was all about lost this weight on Ornish,
that is a very high carbohydrate diet.

A person following your two-pound approach and eating a more balanced
diet would get much less carbohydrates

But enough to keep the Kreb cycle running. It only takes a few ounces. Folks really have to work at it to reduce the
level of carbohydrates to cause hyperketonemia. It does not happen accidently except in folks who are starving
themselves. And, 2 pounds of food a day is a long way from starvation.

Quoted message said:

and therefore likely be in
ketosis if he is losing moderate amounts of fat, at least according to
what you stated in the discussion I cited.

Depends on the rate of weight loss. The 2PD approach brings about slow and steady weight loss cruising right into
maintenance.

Quoted message said:

Or think about all those poor POWs of Camp Cropper who, according to
Mu_nstruck, came from obese to thin in a matter of months, on a diet
allegedly not unlike your two-pound diet. They must have been in deep
ketosis.

See above.

Quoted message said:

(<[email hidden]>😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If
you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the book "Protein
Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.

I prefer peer-reviewed journal article to books like "Protein Power."

The latter sounds too much like "White Power."

Do you really think you can discredit the work of the Eades' with this,
er, association of yours?

The title's already done it for me. Sorry.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

"M. Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

Brad Sheppard schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Lowering carbs may or may not be a good thing. Lowering refined carbs
is very likely good. Before overdosing on protein, I urge you to read
the Harvard School of Public Health's opinion of too much protein - in
a nutshell, getting over 1 gram of protein per kilo of bodyweight may
be dangerous http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html
Lowering carbs may make sense if you are increasing "good" fats.

Thank you for this interesting link. However, if I didn't overlook
something important, they are not so negative about much protein. The
worst likely problem seems to be that a high protein diet may weaken the
bones. Taking a calcium supplement might prevent this problem. On the
positive side:

" In the Nurses' Health Study, women who ate the most protein (about 110
grams per day) were 25 percent less likely to have had a heart attack or
to have died of heart disease than the women who ate the least protein
(about 68 grams per day) over a 14-year period."

I notice that they don't mention that a high protein diet might be a
strain on the kidneys, something you can sometimes hear.

So basically you have the choice between a higher risk of broken bones
and a higher risk of heart attack. I think I'm going for the broken
bones.

Eating good fats is certainly a goog idea, that is, if you can tell me
what the good fats are. There seems to be a considerable amount of
uncertainty about this. The authors of the article you cited seem to
think that saturated fat is somehow unhealthy. I would like to see a
study that this is really true.

Thorsten

Good fats are olive oil, fatty fish like salmon, sardines, and herring,

and

Quoted message said:

nuts.

Have you considered that a very low carbohydrate diet is a vehicle for
certain forms of cancer? All carbs are not the same. Complex carbs offer
nutrition and _fiber_.

Have you considered that high carbs are a vehicle for diabetes and possible
associated heart disease? Carbs are addictive, whether you choose to
believe it or not.

Quoted message said:

What do you consider good fats? Steak? :-) Bacon? :-)) Frankfurters? :-)))

I have improved my lipid profile dramatically by eating Steaks, Eggs, Bacon,
pork chops and fish at least three times a week. I also use a lot of Olive
oil, eat a LOT of vegetables and drink home made dry red wine daily. I do
not abstain from carbs but eat them sparingly and eat those with a
relatively low glycemic index.

Quoted message said:

Mel

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: What percentage of a cholesterol decrease can be attributed to

From: Thorsten Schier [email hidden]
Date: 10/6/2003 6:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Then you are probably fortunate enough not to be very insulin resistant.
Those of us who are, would likely be in trouble with your way of eating.

But is the CAUSE of your insulin resistance the SAME cause/reason you are on
THIS list .. ?

Elevated iron levels leads to insulin resistance .. Dr. Jerome Sullivan has
been saying for over thirty years .. iron DESTROYS the heart.

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:

Quoted message said:

Joe Smigiel wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

> and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
> carbs...)

Carbs don't cause obesity.

A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that.

If that were true, it should be easy for you to cite research studies
describing carbohydrates causing obesity.

Please don't cite Dr. Atkins:

(1) He's dead.

(2) He wasn't a scientist. Being a diet guru was not the same.

Being dead doesn't neccessarily negate the value of one's message. Don't
you frequently quote the gospel?

But, you are correct - there is nothing scientific about Atkins. He is not
gospel!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight.

Cutting out anything will cause weight loss. Problem is that research
studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success rates..

I am not a scientist either but I think everyone's argument in this thread,
thus far, has merit. Atkins is very good for short term weight loss.
Sometimes, the initial success encourages people to go further. I do think
it is boring, though. I have read preliminary studies on Atkins but there
is not enough data to satisfy me, yet. One thing to consider is that Atkins
has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been more data in 30
years?

I have also read intensely on insulin resistance, Syndrome X, etc., whatever
it is called these days. Most studies state that between 20 and 25 percent
of US citizens are insulin resistant. For the insulin resistant, severe
restriction of refined carbs is a good thing. (Note, I did not say
elimination!) But, that also means that 75 to 80 percent of us will not
have insatiable rebound hunger from an occasional side of rice or potatoes
eaten in moderation with a meal. I am the poster child of insulin
resistance - very small with long skinny legs, no butt but all my weight is
carried in the middle. I remember going to the store to pick up cat food
knowing that in spite of my best intentions, I would walk out with a soda.
It wasn't until I seriously dealt with my eating that I was able to pass the
soda and candy bars up without regret.

There is a magic bullet for insulin resistance, though. It is so simple
that I could be the hostess of an infomercial. Instead of expensive shakes
and radical diets, all one really has to do is exercise. Studies show that
the body can use insulin much more efficiently for 24 to 48 hours after an
hour of moderate exercise. Also, resistance training improves sensitivity
to the muscles used in the resistance training. Keeping this in mind, I try
to exercise for an hour each day. Instead of running flat out for 20 or 30
minutes, I walk briskly for 45 minutes or an hour and follow up with
resistance training. It doesn't take much. I am not graceful. I have a
bench and a few free weights and I just do it!

There is also research that shows that metformin can improve insulin
resistance. I am reluctant to try this as long as I can exercise and eat an
appropriate diet. If I couldn't exercise or if my food choices were
severely restricted, I would try this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, it offers a whole host of other
health benefits like reduced bloodpressure

That happens from losing weight.

It also happens with Atkins as diuresis is quite dramatic in the first
weeks; moreso than on a reduced calorie diet. This is one reason why I do
not like to see heart patients on Atkins. Along with the fluid, goes
potassium and many heart patients have rhythm problems or are maintained on
lasix. I have been challenged numerous times from low carb proponents who
state that OTC K+ supplements are harmless. I am of the rather narrow
opinion that potassium supplementation should never be self supervised
without lab work, etc. I have attended far too many codes for patients with
medically supervised potassium supplementation to believe that one should
try this on their own.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and lower triglcerides.

This also happens largely from losing weight.

Without carbohydrates, there will be hyperketonemia. This is not a good
thing physiologically.

It is especially dangerous for heart patients and being that this is a
cardiology group, I thought I might make a note of that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If
you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the book "Protein
Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.

I've read the book - found it fascinating. It makes many good points and is
not as strict as Atkins. It is also very hard to follow though in real
life. I also like the Zone diet plan but being mathematically challenged,
it is hard for me to figure out all the ratios. Why can't someone put
together a plan that just says eat carbs with protien and watch calories and
exercise? Is it too simple?

I do believe in the merits of eating a lower carb diet, especially one that
focuses on vegetables as the main source of carbs. No one ever became
healthier from eating white sugar, candy bars and soft drinks. Furthermore,
in order to eat lower carb, something must be increased to provide calories.
Usually this is lean protien. This shouldn't be a problem in moderation for
most people (as long as plenty of water is consumed).

I pay close attention to the glycemic index when choosing foods. It is far
more complicated than simply eating protien and fat to the exclusion of
carbs but it makes sense. In Australia, many foods are labeled with their
glycemic index or glycemic load. I would kill for that to be on our food
labels. It isn't the end all of nutritional data (french fries have a lower
index than baked potatoes without butter) but it is a start and when
considered along with fats, calories, etc., it makes sense for just about
everyone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I prefer peer-reviewed journal article to books like "Protein Power."

Quoted message said:

The latter sounds too much like "White Power."

And when I think of white powder, my mind automatically turns to white
powder which is another no-no for heart patients🙂

j

Quoted message said:

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

John Merlano said:

MD/PhD said:

Joe Smigiel wrote:

> I had a heart attack June 9th, 3xCABG on June 13th, and am feeling
> pretty good now. I'm 49 and male with a history of CAD in my family
> (older brother 5xCABG, father 3XCABG, paternal uncles all with MIs,
> CAD). I went through a hospital cardiac rehab regimen in about 4

weeks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> time this summer and have increased my exercise rate about 25-30%

since

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> graduating from the program.
>
> My cardiologist has me on Lipitor 10mg/day as well as metaprolol,
> Altace, aspirin, and a daily multivitamin. The last time checked &
> several years before the heart attack my cholesterol was 202. Last
> month it was 116 with the hdl/ldl ratio about 3.5.

You probably mean LDL/HDL ratio.

> Yesterday I had
> another blood test and the total cholesterol was less than 100, hdl @
> 27. (Glucose 88, BP 90/58 which was low, usually around 100/70.)
>

Your HDL needs to be higher. More exercise should help that.

>
> Since surgery I've done some lifestyle changes including quitting
> smoking (was 1 1/2 packs per day for 32 years),

Good.

> continuing to exercise
> 5-6 times per week

This needs to be aerobic for at least 30 minutes daily preferably

before

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

supper.

Why before supper? And do you mean directly before supper or at any time of
the day prior to the evening meal?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and I have changed my diet considerably. I'm eating
> oats instead of eggs for breakfast, probably have one meal with lean
> meat daily (usually chicken or lean pork) and try to do a vegetarian
> meal per day. I've switched to mostly non- or low-fat, low-salt

foods

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and am doing more fruits, veggies, fish and nuts, olive oil. etc.,

and I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> haven't had a cup of regular coffee since the cardiac event. I'm

still

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> about a 20 pounds overweight (although not obese) even with the
> increased exercise and diet changes. I've been trying to shed the

extra

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> weight since April but have only lost about 8 pounds total. (I

figure

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> the exclusion of nicotine and caffeine have probably affected my
> metabolic rate

This does more to increase appetite than to lower metabolic rate.

> and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
> carbs...)

Carbs don't cause obesity.

Doesn't eating refined carbs contribute to gaining weight?

John Merlano

No.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com

For a more current article, take a look at:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14501025&dopt=Abstract

A Position Paper: Based on Observational Data Indicating an Increased Rate
of Altered Blood Chemistry Requiring Withdrawal from the Alzheimer's Disease
Cholesterol-Lowering Treatment Trial (ADCLT).

Sparks DL, Lopez J, Connor D, Sabbagh M, Seward J, Browne P.
Ralph and Murial Roberts Laboratory for Neurodegenerative Disease Research,
Sun Health Research Institute, Sun City, AZ 95351; and Cleo Roberts Clinical
Research Center, Sun Health Research Institute, Sun City, AZ 95351.

Recruitment for the inaugural double-blind placebo-controlled trial
investigating a cholesterol-lowering treatment for benefit in Alzheimer's
disease (AD) (ADCLT) ended after obtaining 98 informed consents. Suspension
of recruitment of the ADCLT occurred in concert with initiation of two
separate multicenter trials testing similar hypotheses. Although occurring
at very low rates (<2%), altered-chemistry adverse events requiring
discontinuation of therapy (withdrawal AEs) are not unexpected with use of
cholesterol-lowering statins. We suggest that exceptionally close monitoring
for altered chemistry among individuals with AD should be undertaken in
future statin treatment trials, as limited data from the ADCLT indicate that
chemically based withdrawal AEs could be more prevalent among female AD
patients. There was no apparent correlation between the occurrence of
withdrawal-AE incidence and lower body mass among the female AD trial
subjects and, therefore, probably was not a dose-related resultant. This
might indicate that cognitively intact elderly women at risk for heart
disease and those with clinically documented AD should not be presumed to be
pharmocodynamically equivalent. Lipid profiles obtained at screening in the
ADCLT are consistent with a possible difference between patients with
current AD and those at risk for heart disease. Elevated cholesterol,
increased cholesterol/high-density lipid (HDL) ratios, and elevated
triglycerides are routinely observed among those at risk for heart disease;
however, among ADCLT study participants, only cholesterol levels were
increased while cholesterol/HDL ratio and triglyceride levels remained
within normal limits.

PMID: 14501025 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/fref.fcgi?http://www.humanapress.com/ArticleDetail.pasp?issn=0895-8696&acode=JMN:20:3:407
J Mol Neurosci. 2003 Jun;20(3):407-10. , Links

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just came across this possibly related article:

Bill

___________________

Statin Therapy Slows Alzheimer's in Small Study

LONDON (Reuters Health) Sept 22 - Simvastatin significantly slowed disease
progression in Alzheimer's patients, according to the findings of a small
German study released on Monday.

Professor Konrad Beyreuther, of the University of Heidelberg, Germany said

44

Quoted message said:

patients were randomized to receive either simvastatin or placebo in a

26-week

Quoted message said:

double blind study.

He told the 16th European College of Neuropsychopharmacology conference in
Prague that by the end of study, there was a significant difference in the
patients' average Mini-Mental Status Exam (MMSE) scores.

In the treatment arm, the slowest rate of disease progression was seen in
patients with moderate rather than severe Alzheimer's disease, suggesting

a

Quoted message said:

narrow therapeutic window. He said other studies by his group using guinea
pigs were also encouraging.

Several lines of evidence have raised hopes for statin therapy against
Alzheimer's. Cholesterol metabolism and the disease are genetically

linked.

Quoted message said:

The apoE4 gene is associated with higher cholesterol levels and has been

shown

Quoted message said:

to increase the risk of developing the disease three to seven-fold.

Experimental suppression of cholesterol by statins reduces the formation

of

Quoted message said:

the short and long forms of amyloid beta. Epidemiological studies have

also

Quoted message said:

shown that statin therapy reduced the relative risk of Alzheimer's

threefold.

Quoted message said:

Beyreuther said: "Our hopes go towards brain cholesterol lowering

therapies

Quoted message said:

because (these) studies, our experiments in cells and animals, and our

initial

Quoted message said:

clinical trial suggest that treatment with cholesterol-lowering drugs

reduces

Quoted message said:

amyloid beta production and disease progression."

But he cautioned: "Long term trials in larger population will have to

clarity

Quoted message said:

whether statins indeed are able to slow the progression of cognitive

symptoms

Quoted message said:

in Alzheimer's disease."

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Jim Chinnis said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

> However
> that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
> people to lose weight.

Cutting out anything will cause weight loss. Problem is that research
studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success rates..

There don't appear to BE any long-term studies of Atkin's or other low-carb
diets. The short-term studies are favorable.

See:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/14/1792?etoc

This is hardly favorable.

Huh? They don't mention Atkin's or low-carb in the abstract, just that they
used an (unspecified) commercial weight-loss program. And it worked better
than counselling alone, anyway.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"M. Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

Brad Sheppard schrieb:
>
> Lowering carbs may or may not be a good thing. Lowering refined carbs
> is very likely good. Before overdosing on protein, I urge you to read
> the Harvard School of Public Health's opinion of too much protein - in
> a nutshell, getting over 1 gram of protein per kilo of bodyweight may
> be dangerous http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/protein.html
> Lowering carbs may make sense if you are increasing "good" fats.

Thank you for this interesting link. However, if I didn't overlook
something important, they are not so negative about much protein. The
worst likely problem seems to be that a high protein diet may weaken the
bones. Taking a calcium supplement might prevent this problem. On the
positive side:

" In the Nurses' Health Study, women who ate the most protein (about 110
grams per day) were 25 percent less likely to have had a heart attack or
to have died of heart disease than the women who ate the least protein
(about 68 grams per day) over a 14-year period."

I notice that they don't mention that a high protein diet might be a
strain on the kidneys, something you can sometimes hear.

So basically you have the choice between a higher risk of broken bones
and a higher risk of heart attack. I think I'm going for the broken
bones.

Eating good fats is certainly a goog idea, that is, if you can tell me
what the good fats are. There seems to be a considerable amount of
uncertainty about this. The authors of the article you cited seem to
think that saturated fat is somehow unhealthy. I would like to see a
study that this is really true.

Thorsten

Good fats are olive oil, fatty fish like salmon, sardines, and herring,

and

Quoted message said:

nuts.

Have you considered that a very low carbohydrate diet is a vehicle for
certain forms of cancer? All carbs are not the same. Complex carbs offer
nutrition and _fiber_.

Have you considered that high carbs are a vehicle for diabetes and possible
associated heart disease? Carbs are addictive, whether you choose to
believe it or not.

Have you considered I specified complex carbohydrates? Complex carbs are
unrefined carbs. Let's make a clear distinction between refined carbs and
unrefined carbs: complex carbs and simple carbs. Complex carbs are not
addictive in my opinion unless you crave fiber. 🙂

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you consider good fats? Steak? :-) Bacon? :-)) Frankfurters? :-)))

I have improved my lipid profile dramatically by eating Steaks, Eggs, Bacon,
pork chops and fish at least three times a week. I also use a lot of Olive
oil, eat a LOT of vegetables and drink home made dry red wine daily. I do
not abstain from carbs but eat them sparingly and eat those with a
relatively low glycemic index.

How long have you been on this diet regimen? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years?
What long-term data can you show us that your diet regimen is a healthy way
to eat?

Mel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mel

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Sharon could you give a specific quote from one of the articles to support
your claims. I have been looking through them, and they often seem to say the
opposite

I have found the same thing in reading through Sharon's cited articles. One
which had been described as finding that 100% of the statin treatment group
suffered cognitive decline actually found a statistically significant
improvement in memory in the treatment group, just as one example.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Julianne said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thorsten Schier said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
>
> Joe Smigiel wrote:
>
[...]
> > and helped prevent some weight loss. I could do fewer
> > carbs...)
>
> Carbs don't cause obesity.

A growing number of scientists will disagree with you on that.

If that were true, it should be easy for you to cite research studies
describing carbohydrates causing obesity.

Please don't cite Dr. Atkins:

(1) He's dead.

(2) He wasn't a scientist. Being a diet guru was not the same.

Being dead doesn't neccessarily negate the value of one's message. Don't
you frequently quote the gospel?

Yes. Jesus is risen, therefore He is not dead.

Quoted message said:

But, you are correct - there is nothing scientific about Atkins. He is not
gospel!

Nor was he a scientist.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However
that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast majority of obese
people to lose weight.

Cutting out anything will cause weight loss. Problem is that research
studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term success rates..

I am not a scientist either but I think everyone's argument in this thread,
thus far, has merit. Atkins is very good for short term weight loss.
Sometimes, the initial success encourages people to go further. I do think
it is boring, though. I have read preliminary studies on Atkins but there
is not enough data to satisfy me, yet. One thing to consider is that Atkins
has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been more data in 30
years?

You have to wonder.

Quoted message said:

I have also read intensely on insulin resistance, Syndrome X, etc., whatever
it is called these days. Most studies state that between 20 and 25 percent
of US citizens are insulin resistant. For the insulin resistant, severe
restriction of refined carbs is a good thing. (Note, I did not say
elimination!) But, that also means that 75 to 80 percent of us will not
have insatiable rebound hunger from an occasional side of rice or potatoes
eaten in moderation with a meal. I am the poster child of insulin
resistance - very small with long skinny legs, no butt but all my weight is
carried in the middle. I remember going to the store to pick up cat food
knowing that in spite of my best intentions, I would walk out with a soda.
It wasn't until I seriously dealt with my eating that I was able to pass the
soda and candy bars up without regret.

There is a magic bullet for insulin resistance, though. It is so simple
that I could be the hostess of an infomercial. Instead of expensive shakes
and radical diets, all one really has to do is exercise. Studies show that
the body can use insulin much more efficiently for 24 to 48 hours after an
hour of moderate exercise. Also, resistance training improves sensitivity
to the muscles used in the resistance training. Keeping this in mind, I try
to exercise for an hour each day. Instead of running flat out for 20 or 30
minutes, I walk briskly for 45 minutes or an hour and follow up with
resistance training. It doesn't take much. I am not graceful. I have a
bench and a few free weights and I just do it!

There is also research that shows that metformin can improve insulin
resistance. I am reluctant to try this as long as I can exercise and eat an
appropriate diet. If I couldn't exercise or if my food choices were
severely restricted, I would try this.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In addition, it offers a whole host of other
health benefits like reduced bloodpressure

That happens from losing weight.

It also happens with Atkins as diuresis is quite dramatic in the first
weeks;

Yes.

Quoted message said:

moreso than on a reduced calorie diet. This is one reason why I do
not like to see heart patients on Atkins. Along with the fluid, goes
potassium and many heart patients have rhythm problems or are maintained on
lasix. I have been challenged numerous times from low carb proponents who
state that OTC K+ supplements are harmless. I am of the rather narrow
opinion that potassium supplementation should never be self supervised
without lab work, etc. I have attended far too many codes for patients with
medically supervised potassium supplementation to believe that one should
try this on their own.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and lower triglcerides.

This also happens largely from losing weight.

Without carbohydrates, there will be hyperketonemia. This is not a good
thing physiologically.

It is especially dangerous for heart patients and being that this is a
cardiology group, I thought I might make a note of that.

Correct.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If
you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the book "Protein
Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.

I've read the book - found it fascinating. It makes many good points and is
not as strict as Atkins. It is also very hard to follow though in real
life. I also like the Zone diet plan but being mathematically challenged,
it is hard for me to figure out all the ratios. Why can't someone put
together a plan that just says eat carbs with protien and watch calories and
exercise? Is it too simple?

See http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp

Quoted message said:

I do believe in the merits of eating a lower carb diet, especially one that
focuses on vegetables as the main source of carbs. No one ever became
healthier from eating white sugar, candy bars and soft drinks. Furthermore,
in order to eat lower carb, something must be increased to provide calories.
Usually this is lean protien. This shouldn't be a problem in moderation for
most people (as long as plenty of water is consumed).

I pay close attention to the glycemic index when choosing foods. It is far
more complicated than simply eating protien and fat to the exclusion of
carbs but it makes sense. In Australia, many foods are labeled with their
glycemic index or glycemic load. I would kill for that to be on our food
labels. It isn't the end all of nutritional data (french fries have a lower
index than baked potatoes without butter) but it is a start and when
considered along with fats, calories, etc., it makes sense for just about
everyone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I prefer peer-reviewed journal article to books like "Protein Power."

Quoted message said:

The latter sounds too much like "White Power."

And when I think of white powder, my mind automatically turns to white
powder which is another no-no for heart patients🙂

j

Thank you for your comments :-)

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Thorsten Schier said:

Or think about all those poor POWs of Camp Cropper who, according to
Mu_nstruck, came from obese to thin in a matter of months, on a diet
allegedly not unlike your two-pound diet. They must have been in deep
ketosis.

Didn't happen. Although the food was small in quantity, it was pretty
well balance in macronutrient values. No "deep" ketosis was noted by
the medical community for the most part. As to obese to thin, many
went from morbidly obese to obese and others, who were thin, got
thinner but none were described as having disease or pathologies
related to reduced food consumptions.

No one is starving, no one has starved.

When you have key members. and lots of them, of the Deck of Cards and
their associates, the LAST thing you want to do is impair their
physical health.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.