What percentage of a cholesterol decrease can be attributed to statins ?

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > wrote:
> >
> > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been more

data

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

> 30
> > >years?
> >
> > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and any

studies

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > of his patient population.
>
> Care to cite references?

If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies, one

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

expect that there would be no references to be found.

Were are the references that state he refused to participate in studies?

Good summary from one of your references:

"CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations for

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among

participants

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of 20

g/d

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or less of carbohydrates."

NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......

Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.

That seems to be a pretty BIG neutral from a reputable souce doesn't it
Andy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where is the evidence for or against your TPD? Has the medical

community

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

accepted and endorsed it?

No negatives. In time, the 2PD approach will likely be proven.

No negatives? Come on Andy. Let me at least see a "Neutral" opinion from
credible sources.

What "Time" frame are we talking about, Andy?

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > wrote:
> >
> > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been more

data

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

> 30
> > >years?
> >
> > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and any

studies

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > of his patient population.
>
> Care to cite references?

If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies, one

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

expect that there would be no references to be found.

Were are the references that state he refused to participate in studies?

Don't duck the above question, Andy. Where are the references that prove
that he refused to participate in studies. I am sure you are aware of lible
laws - you seem very interested in them. NOTE: Refusing to turn over an
individuals private medical records is NOT refusing to participate in
studies.

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations for or
against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among participants
older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of 20 g/d
or less of carbohydrates."

NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......

Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.

No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails in the
long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been established in
published studies, the latter is not the case.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:13:57 -0400 in article <[email hidden]>

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies, one would
expect that there would be no references to be found.

A good review article on the topic:

http://tinyurl.com/q404

A good reference list:

http://tinyurl.com/q401

Here some newer studies:

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO,
Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S.
A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2082-90.
PMID: 12761365 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761365&dopt=Abstract

"... The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss
(absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the
conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were
not significant at one year. The low-carbohydrate diet was associated
with a greater improvement in some risk factors for coronary heart
disease..."

Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T,
Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L.
A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.
PMID: 12761364 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761364&dopt=Abstract

"... Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or
the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a
carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted
diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and
triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight
lost. ..."

Alnasir FA, Fateha BE.
Low carbohydrate diet. Its effects on selected body parameters of obese
patients.
Saudi Med J. 2003 Sep;24(9):949-52.
PMID: 12973475 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12973475&dopt=Abstract

"... CONCLUSION: Low carbohydrate diet could help in reducing body weight
without any significant harmful effect."

Westman EC, Mavropoulos J, Yancy WS, Volek JS.
A Review of Low-carbohydrate Ketogenic Diets.
Curr Atheroscler Rep. 2003 Nov;5(6):476-83.
PMID: 14525681 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14525681&dopt=Abstract

"In response to the emerging epidemic of obesity in the United
States, a renewal of interest in alternative diets has occurred,
especially in diets that limit carbohydrate intake. Recent research
has demonstrated that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets can lead to
weight loss and favorable changes in serum triglycerides and high-
density lipoprotein cholesterol ..."

--
Matti Narkia

Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:40:04 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:13:57 -0400 in article <[email hidden]>

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies, one would
expect that there would be no references to be found.

A good review article on the topic:

http://tinyurl.com/q404

A good reference list:

http://tinyurl.com/q401

Here some newer studies:

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO,
Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S.
A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2082-90.
PMID: 12761365 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761365&dopt=Abstract

"... The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss
(absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the
conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were
not significant at one year. The low-carbohydrate diet was associated
with a greater improvement in some risk factors for coronary heart
disease..."

Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T,
Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L.
A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.
PMID: 12761364 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761364&dopt=Abstract

"... Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or
the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a
carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted
diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and
triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight
lost. ..."

Alnasir FA, Fateha BE.
Low carbohydrate diet. Its effects on selected body parameters of obese
patients.
Saudi Med J. 2003 Sep;24(9):949-52.
PMID: 12973475 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12973475&dopt=Abstract

"... CONCLUSION: Low carbohydrate diet could help in reducing body weight
without any significant harmful effect."

Westman EC, Mavropoulos J, Yancy WS, Volek JS.
A Review of Low-carbohydrate Ketogenic Diets.
Curr Atheroscler Rep. 2003 Nov;5(6):476-83.
PMID: 14525681 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14525681&dopt=Abstract

"In response to the emerging epidemic of obesity in the United
States, a renewal of interest in alternative diets has occurred,
especially in diets that limit carbohydrate intake. Recent research
has demonstrated that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets can lead to
weight loss and favorable changes in serum triglycerides and high-
density lipoprotein cholesterol ..."

Here's one more:

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ.
An Isoenergetic Very Low Carbohydrate Diet Improves Serum HDL Cholesterol and
Triacylglycerol Concentrations, the Total Cholesterol to HDL Cholesterol Ratio
and Postprandial Lipemic Responses Compared with a Low Fat Diet in Normal
Weight, Normolipidemic Women.
J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2756-61.
PMID: 12949361 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12949361&dopt=Abstract

"... Compared with the low fat diet, the very low carbohydrate diet
increased (P <or= 0.05) fasting serum total cholesterol (16%), LDL
cholesterol (LDL-C) (15%) and HDL-C (33%) and decreased serum
triacylglycerols (-30%), the total cholesterol to HDL ratio (-13%)
and the area under the 8-h postprandial triacylglycerol curve (-31%).
There were no significant changes in LDL size or markers of
inflammation (C-reactive protein, interleukin-6, tumor necrosis
factor-alpha) after the very low carbohydrate diet. ..."

--
Matti Narkia

Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:40:04 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Here some newer studies:

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO,
Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S.
A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2082-90.
PMID: 12761365 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761365&dopt=Abstract

"... The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss
(absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the
conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were
not significant at one year. The low-carbohydrate diet was associated
with a greater improvement in some risk factors for coronary heart
disease..."

Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T,
Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L.
A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.
PMID: 12761364 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761364&dopt=Abstract

"... Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or
the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a
carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted
diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and
triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight
lost. ..."

These studies have been commented in the article

Two Studies Vindicate Atkins Diet
The Diet Really Does Help People Lose Weight
http://cbs2chicago.com/health/health_story_141152609.html

--
Matti Narkia

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...
> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
>
> > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been more

data

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in
> > 30
> > > >years?
> > >
> > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and any

studies

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > of his patient population.
> >
> > Care to cite references?
>
> If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies, one

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> expect that there would be no references to be found.

Were are the references that state he refused to participate in studies?

Good summary from one of your references:

"CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations for

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among

participants

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of 20

g/d

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or less of carbohydrates."

NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......

Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.

That seems to be a pretty BIG neutral from a reputable souce doesn't it
Andy.

Neutrals are neither big nor small.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where is the evidence for or against your TPD? Has the medical

community

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

accepted and endorsed it?

No negatives. In time, the 2PD approach will likely be proven.

No negatives? Come on Andy. Let me at least see a "Neutral" opinion from
credible sources.

What "Time" frame are we talking about, Andy?

I'm not in any hurry. Don't have a book to sell or food to peddle.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...
> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
>
> > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been more

data

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in
> > 30
> > > >years?
> > >
> > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and any

studies

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > > of his patient population.
> >
> > Care to cite references?
>
> If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies, one

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> expect that there would be no references to be found.

Were are the references that state he refused to participate in studies?

Don't duck the above question, Andy. Where are the references that prove
that he refused to participate in studies.

Don't know of any.

Quoted message said:

I am sure you are aware of lible
laws - you seem very interested in them.

Enough to spell it correctly.

Quoted message said:

NOTE: Refusing to turn over an
individuals private medical records is NOT refusing to participate in
studies.

Is there documentation that Dr. Atkins refused on the grounds of patient
privacy?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Jim Chinnis said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations for or
against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among participants
older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of 20 g/d
or less of carbohydrates."

NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......

Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.

No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails in the
long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been established in
published studies, the latter is not the case.

However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC dieting all
the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Matti Narkia said:

Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:40:04 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tue, 07 Oct 2003 21:13:57 -0400 in article <[email hidden]>

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies, one would
expect that there would be no references to be found.

A good review article on the topic:

http://tinyurl.com/q404

A good reference list:

http://tinyurl.com/q401

Here some newer studies:

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO,
Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S.
A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2082-90.
PMID: 12761365 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761365&dopt=Abstract

"... The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss
(absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the
conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were
not significant at one year. The low-carbohydrate diet was associated
with a greater improvement in some risk factors for coronary heart
disease..."

Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T,
Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L.
A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.
PMID: 12761364 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761364&dopt=Abstract

"... Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or
the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a
carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted
diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and
triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight
lost. ..."

Alnasir FA, Fateha BE.
Low carbohydrate diet. Its effects on selected body parameters of obese
patients.
Saudi Med J. 2003 Sep;24(9):949-52.
PMID: 12973475 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12973475&dopt=Abstract

"... CONCLUSION: Low carbohydrate diet could help in reducing body weight
without any significant harmful effect."

Westman EC, Mavropoulos J, Yancy WS, Volek JS.
A Review of Low-carbohydrate Ketogenic Diets.
Curr Atheroscler Rep. 2003 Nov;5(6):476-83.
PMID: 14525681 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14525681&dopt=Abstract

"In response to the emerging epidemic of obesity in the United
States, a renewal of interest in alternative diets has occurred,
especially in diets that limit carbohydrate intake. Recent research
has demonstrated that low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets can lead to
weight loss and favorable changes in serum triglycerides and high-
density lipoprotein cholesterol ..."

Here's one more:

Volek JS, Sharman MJ, Gomez AL, Scheett TP, Kraemer WJ.
An Isoenergetic Very Low Carbohydrate Diet Improves Serum HDL Cholesterol and
Triacylglycerol Concentrations, the Total Cholesterol to HDL Cholesterol Ratio
and Postprandial Lipemic Responses Compared with a Low Fat Diet in Normal
Weight, Normolipidemic Women.
J Nutr. 2003 Sep;133(9):2756-61.
PMID: 12949361 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12949361&dopt=Abstract

"... Compared with the low fat diet, the very low carbohydrate diet
increased (P <or= 0.05) fasting serum total cholesterol (16%), LDL
cholesterol (LDL-C) (15%)

uh-oh.

Quoted message said:

and HDL-C (33%) and decreased serum
triacylglycerols (-30%), the total cholesterol to HDL ratio (-13%)
and the area under the 8-h postprandial triacylglycerol curve (-31%).
There were no significant changes in LDL size or markers of
inflammation (C-reactive protein, interleukin-6, tumor necrosis
factor-alpha) after the very low carbohydrate diet. ..."

With weight loss, there should be a decrease in CRP. Not sure why normal weight women would sign up for a
low-carb diet study.

Quoted message said:

--
Matti Narkia

Thanks for the references.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Matti Narkia said:

Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:40:04 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Here some newer studies:

Foster GD, Wyatt HR, Hill JO, McGuckin BG, Brill C, Mohammed BS, Szapary PO,
Rader DJ, Edman JS, Klein S.
A randomized trial of a low-carbohydrate diet for obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2082-90.
PMID: 12761365 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761365&dopt=Abstract

"... The low-carbohydrate diet produced a greater weight loss
(absolute difference, approximately 4 percent) than did the
conventional diet for the first six months, but the differences were
not significant at one year. The low-carbohydrate diet was associated
with a greater improvement in some risk factors for coronary heart
disease..."

Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T,
Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L.
A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity.
N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.
PMID: 12761364 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12761364&dopt=Abstract

"... Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or
the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a
carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted
diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and
triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight
lost. ..."

These studies have been commented in the article

Two Studies Vindicate Atkins Diet
The Diet Really Does Help People Lose Weight
http://cbs2chicago.com/health/health_story_141152609.html

--
Matti Narkia

The bigger concern is the price of the weight loss.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

The bigger concern is the price of the weight loss.

Yeah, all those cardiologists, statin makers, coronary surgery units --
out of work. 😉

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Not sure why normal weight women would sign up for a
low-carb diet study.

LC - it's not just for weight loss anymore.

Owen Lowe said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

The bigger concern is the price of the weight loss.

Yeah, all those cardiologists, statin makers, coronary surgery units --
out of work. 😉

Speaking as a cardiologist, I see disproportionately more advanced disease
in young people who have low-carbed. If everyone stopped low-carbing,
cardiologists, statin makers, open-heart centers would be less busy instead
of more.

The cost to society is enormous.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Owen Lowe said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Not sure why normal weight women would sign up for a
low-carb diet study.

LC - it's not just for weight loss anymore.

Yes, it's for raising LDL cholesterol.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

> news:[email hidden]...
> > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> >
> > > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been

more

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Quoted message said:

data

Quoted message said:

> in
> > > 30
> > > > >years?
> > > >
> > > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and any

studies

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> > > > of his patient population.
> > >
> > > Care to cite references?
> >
> > If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies,

one

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Quoted message said:

would

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> > expect that there would be no references to be found.
>
> Were are the references that state he refused to participate in

studies?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> Good summary from one of your references:
>
> "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or

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> against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among

participants

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> older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets

of 20

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g/d

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> or less of carbohydrates."
>
> NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
>

Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.

That seems to be a pretty BIG neutral from a reputable souce doesn't it
Andy.

Neutrals are neither big nor small.

Depends WHO or WHAT organization issues the neutral rating doesn't it Andy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Where is the evidence for or against your TPD? Has the medical

community

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> accepted and endorsed it?
>

No negatives. In time, the 2PD approach will likely be proven.

No negatives? Come on Andy. Let me at least see a "Neutral" opinion

from

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credible sources.

What "Time" frame are we talking about, Andy?

I'm not in any hurry. Don't have a book to sell or food to peddle.

But you ARE promoting your business.

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"
<[email hidden]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

data
> > in
> > > > 30
> > > > > >years?
> > > > >
> > > > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and any
studies
> > > > > of his patient population.
> > > >
> > > > Care to cite references?
> > >
> > > If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies,

one

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would
> > > expect that there would be no references to be found.
> >
> > Were are the references that state he refused to participate in

studies?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > Good summary from one of your references:
> >
> > "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or
> > against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among
participants
> > older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets

of 20

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

g/d
> > or less of carbohydrates."
> >
> > NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
> >
>
> Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.

That seems to be a pretty BIG neutral from a reputable souce doesn't it
Andy.

Neutrals are neither big nor small.

Depends WHO or WHAT organization issues the neutral rating doesn't it Andy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Where is the evidence for or against your TPD? Has the medical
community
> > accepted and endorsed it?
> >
>
> No negatives. In time, the 2PD approach will likely be proven.

No negatives? Come on Andy. Let me at least see a "Neutral" opinion

from

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Quoted message said:

credible sources.

What "Time" frame are we talking about, Andy?

I'm not in any hurry. Don't have a book to sell or food to peddle.

But you ARE promoting your business.

And what business is that?

Not weight loss?

Nope.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

> news:[email hidden]...
> > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> >
> > > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not been

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

data

Quoted message said:

> in
> > > 30
> > > > >years?
> > > >
> > > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and any

studies

Quoted message said:

> > > > of his patient population.
> > >
> > > Care to cite references?
> >
> > If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such studies,

one

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would

Quoted message said:

> > expect that there would be no references to be found.
>
> Were are the references that state he refused to participate in

studies?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Don't duck the above question, Andy. Where are the references that

prove

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Quoted message said:

that he refused to participate in studies.

Don't know of any.

Then you were caught not telling the truth, weren't you Andy.
You stated he refused to participate in studies and now you can not back up
your statement.

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I am sure you are aware of lible
laws - you seem very interested in them.

Enough to spell it correctly.

Oh, I am sure you are. You seem to spend as much or more time threatening
law suits than anything else.

Quoted message said:

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NOTE: Refusing to turn over an
individuals private medical records is NOT refusing to participate in
studies.

Is there documentation that Dr. Atkins refused on the grounds of patient
privacy?

Don't need any. It is the law. But then again, I don't suppose YOU let the
law bother you.

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jim Chinnis said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

> "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations

for or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among

participants

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of

20 g/d

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> or less of carbohydrates."
>
> NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
>

Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.

No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been established

in

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published studies, the latter is not the case.

However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC

dieting all

Quoted message said:

the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

How many fail on other diets? I am sure you must have the stats and
therefore know first hand. Come on Andy, give us the numbers from your
first hand experience.

Quoted message said:

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:20:49 -0500, "Julianne" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes. Jesus is risen, therefore He is not dead.

Yeah, but some of the apostles are decidedly napping for a while until the
second coming.

The Apostles are dead, unrisen (well, unless you are Catholic and
believe that the Pope is Peter). I believe you meant "disciples".

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.