Wheelbuild question(s)

[Jobst Brandt]

Robert Jones writes:

>> DT spokes are supplied in 1mm increments. Not that that
>> makes spoke length ultra-critical, but I wonder why you
>> feel the need to sow misinformation.

> It is quite hard to find DT Competition spokes in 259mm,
> and I have seen several places list that they size these
> in "even lengths up to 260, and millimeter sizes past
> that" or some such.

> I imagine that 259mm spokes might only come in boxes of
> 100, if one wanted to mail-order them.

> I am getting the idea that spoke length is not ultra-
> critical.

Locally, we once had bicycle shops that carried only even
number DT spoke lengths and the other only odd lengths. I
just take 100 of what is closest in stock at Palo Alto
Bicycles. They carry a good assortment and if they don't
have it, I go to the Bicycle Outfitter (a bit farther. I'm
sure you can get it from some of the contributors to this
newsgroup like: Yellow Jersey (Muzi), Harris Cyclery
(Brown), Chain Reaction (Jacoubowsky), etc.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Jeff Wills]

[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
<Jobst's advice snipped>
> Ahh, OK. Thank you.
>
> From my calculations, it seems as though I actually can
> use a single length of spoke all around (!!!) Since all
> the calculated lengths are within 1.3mm of one another
> (259.7mm - 261.0mm), it seems that I can get away with a
> box of 260mm spokes.
>

Yes and no. When I started building wheels, I used the same
size spokes on both sides and ground off the excess (this
only works with older single-wall rims and a narrow grinding
wheel). When I started building better wheels, I found that
shorter spokes on the right side of the rear wheel means
that the wheel practically dishes itself.

All you really have to do is screw the nipples on to the top
of the spoke threads, then turn all the nipples the same
amount until you've gotten to final tension. Unequal length
spokes means that the dish of the wheel is already built in.

(In reality, I check for roundness, straightness and dish
often as I'm tensioning the spokes. I rarely need to make
corrections during the final third of the tensioning process-
tensioning the spokes equally in small increments seems to
avoid throwing the rim out of true until it's close to its
yield point.)

Jeff

 

[Jonesy]

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Robert Jones writes:
>
> >> DT spokes are supplied in 1mm increments. Not that that
> >> makes spoke length ultra-critical, but I wonder why you
> >> feel the need to sow misinformation.
>
> > It is quite hard to find DT Competition spokes in 259mm,
> > and I have seen several places list that they size these
> > in "even lengths up to 260, and millimeter sizes past
> > that" or some such.
>
> > I imagine that 259mm spokes might only come in boxes of
> > 100, if one wanted to mail-order them.
>
> > I am getting the idea that spoke length is not ultra-
> > critical.
>
> Locally, we once had bicycle shops that carried only even
> number DT spoke lengths and the other only odd lengths. I
> just take 100 of what is closest in stock at Palo Alto
> Bicycles. They carry a good assortment and if they don't
> have it, I go to the Bicycle Outfitter (a bit farther. I'm
> sure you can get it from some of the contributors to this
> newsgroup like: Yellow Jersey (Muzi), Harris Cyclery
> (Brown), Chain Reaction (Jacoubowsky), etc.

I would rather go this route than through one of the big MO
places. Chain Reaction is out - shipping across the Pond is
a little dear for me! One kilogram costs over $30! To be
expected, I suppose.

Now, if I couldn't get it anywhere else...

Last question, I promise:

What size spoke wrench goes on these nipples? I'm guessing
3.2mm (.127"), but that's one thing I'd really rather avoid
- rounding the nipples with a poorly-chosen spoke wrench. I
like the Pedro's one - it grips on three sides. The one I
have used up to now is a multi-size guy that does a decent
job, but I prefer the "proper tool for a properly-done job."

Thanks for all the help,
--
R.F. Jones

 

[Jonesy]

jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jonesy wrote:
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<96XEc.823-
> > [email protected]>...
> >
> >>Jonesy wrote:
> >>
> >>>jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%uDEc.16-
> >>>[email protected]>...
> >>>
> >>
> >>it's practically the same as the x517, so use that
> >>figure. if you want to recalculate yourself, mavic list
> >>the x618's e.r.d. as 539mm.
> >
> >
> > Really? Where? I got 541 as the ERD. A couple of mm
> > wrong - me buying too long, and having an ERD that's
> > actually smaller than what I used to do my calculations
> > might screw my stuff up!
>
> got it from a pdf on the mavictech web site a while back -
> it's now password protected or i'd give you the url. i've
> not had a problem with the results that figure gives. the
> spokes come dead level with the bottom of the slot in the
> nipple head.

I got mine from DT's website calculator.

In any case, 258/260 it is.

Now, here's the kicker - this weekend, I will be in
Portland, OR. I would guess that SOME shop there would carry
DT Comp 14/15s in
258/260mm. I just have to call around.

(Unless someone knows something they can tell me, LOL.)

> > I am going by my previous builds, and by what I have
> > read. Your info doesn't change anything, because I do
> > not know how it applies.
>
> not trying to be rude - /my/ intuition depends on the data
> available [and whether it's accurate].

I realize that. It seems strange to me that an equal-size-
flange hubset, with some offset from the left for disk
rotor mounting, and some offset from the right in the
rear for a 9-speed cassette would work out such that the
spoke lengths all around are within 1.3mm of each other.
This is not intuitively obvious from my previous
experiences! (259.7-261.0mm)

> >
> > My major concern is them sticking out the bottom past
> > the nipple such that they might be a hassle for keeping
> > tubes inflated. Stan's NoTubes would be a way around
> > that, but I would just prefer getting the correct-length
> > spokes to begin with, LOL.
>
> ymmv, but my 258/260 spokes in combination with that model
> hub & x618's worked just dandy.

Real-world build-up is what I like! Here's an unrelated
question: have you marked your front skewer and drop-out for
detection of rotation/skewer self-unscrewing? Neither one of
my disk-brake equipped MTBs have moved in the slightest.

Thanks for the info,
--
Robert Jones.

 

[Jim Beam]

Jonesy wrote: <snip>
>
> Here's an unrelated question: have you marked your front
> skewer and drop-out for detection of rotation/skewer self-
> unscrewing? Neither one of my disk-brake equipped MTBs
> have moved in the slightest.

no. i've never bothered because i've never had a problem. i
posted some pics with carl fogel a while back:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Img_3199.jpg

[carl, thanks for keeping.]

no evidence of movement and no loosening that i can
tell. but i'm using shimano skewers and based on my
ongoing bad experience with an open cam seat post clamp,
i'd never use an open cam skewer to fasten something
important like a wheel.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Jonesy wrote:

> [email protected] wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Robert Jones writes:
>>
>>
>>>>DT spokes are supplied in 1mm increments. Not that that
>>>>makes spoke length ultra-critical, but I wonder why you
>>>>feel the need to sow misinformation.
>>
>>
>>
>>>It is quite hard to find DT Competition spokes in 259mm,
>>>and I have seen several places list that they size these
>>>in "even lengths up to 260, and millimeter sizes past
>>>that" or some such.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I imagine that 259mm spokes might only come in boxes of
>>>100, if one wanted to mail-order them.
>>
>>
>>
>>>I am getting the idea that spoke length is not ultra-
>>>critical.
>>
>>Locally, we once had bicycle shops that carried only even
>>number DT spoke lengths and the other only odd lengths. I
>>just take 100 of what is closest in stock at Palo Alto
>>Bicycles. They carry a good assortment and if they don't
>>have it, I go to the Bicycle Outfitter (a bit farther. I'm
>>sure you can get it from some of the contributors to this
>>newsgroup like: Yellow Jersey (Muzi), Harris Cyclery
>>(Brown), Chain Reaction (Jacoubowsky), etc.
>
>
> I would rather go this route than through one of the big
> MO places. Chain Reaction is out - shipping across the
> Pond is a little dear for me! One kilogram costs over $30!
> To be expected, I suppose.
>
> Now, if I couldn't get it anywhere else...

The Chain Reaction Cycles [1] Jobst Brandt is referring to
is located in California, USA (near San Francisco and San
Jose), and is not to be confused with Chain Reaction Cycles
in the UK [2], the Chain Reaction Cycles in New Zealand [3],
or Chain Reaction Bicycles near Toronto, Canada [4].

[1] <http://www.chainreaction.com/>
[2] <http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/default.asp>
[3] <http://www.chainreaction.co.nz/>
[4] <http://www.crbicycles.com/>

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

 

[Tom Sherman]

jim beam wrote:

> Jonesy wrote: <snip>
>
>>
>> Here's an unrelated question: have you marked your front
>> skewer and drop-out for detection of rotation/skewer self-
>> unscrewing? Neither one of my disk-brake equipped MTBs
>> have moved in the slightest.
>
>
> no. i've never bothered because i've never had a problem.
> i posted some pics with carl fogel a while back:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Img_3199-
> .jpg ...

I see the dropout end of a fork and a tire in the
background, but nothing that would appear to be Mr. Fogel in
the picture.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area

 

[G.Daniels]

The LBS or the spoke manufacturer's website has the spoke
calculator. Go with the LBS then compare to the spoke
people. Buy a handful of 5mm too long and 5mm too short. The
rims are usually elliptical and need be brought into round.
This takes patience, intelligence, planning and planning memory-
strategy like 3-d chess. 4-d chess! The best advice I heard,
so far, was from the LBS expert: the just seated nipple level-
that's emphasized by writers-is adjusted FROM with tweaks on
the nipples. We're talking what? .1 inch pounds? Not much.
These tweaks bring the rim into lateral round and maybe
radial round. TWEAKS!! All the tightening following the
tweaks are but a continuation of the tweak level. If you
don't get it straight on the tweaks, start over. A
unresolved problem for me: how to avoid ( I forget the
number) unstraightening the rim as you tighten the nipples.
I'm trying quadrant 6 now but ssigh that's not producing an
absolte answer. Sequential tightening is dysfunctional.
Check it out

 

[A Muzi]

g.daniels wrote:

> The LBS or the spoke manufacturer's website has the spoke
> calculator. Go with the LBS then compare to the spoke
> people. Buy a handful of 5mm too long and 5mm too short.
> The rims are usually elliptical and need be brought into
> round. This takes patience, intelligence, planning and
> planning memory-strategy like 3-d chess. 4-d chess! The
> best advice I heard, so far, was from the LBS expert: the
> just seated nipple level-that's emphasized by writers-is
> adjusted FROM with tweaks on the nipples. We're talking
> what? .1 inch pounds? Not much. These tweaks bring the rim
> into lateral round and maybe radial round. TWEAKS!! All
> the tightening following the tweaks are but a continuation
> of the tweak level. If you don't get it straight on the
> tweaks, start over. A unresolved problem for me: how to
> avoid ( I forget the number) unstraightening the rim as
> you tighten the nipples. I'm trying quadrant 6 now but
> ssigh that's not producing an absolte answer. Sequential
> tightening is dysfunctional. Check it out

I'm not sure why you wrote that or what your actual question
is, but when building a wheel with a used rim ( I assume
that's what you meant?) it's well worth your time to bend or
beat the thing into a shape that's as close to round and in
one plane as possible. Use a wheel as a reference.

Then after building it, lubricate both the threads and the
face of the nipple where it bears on the rim/ferrule and
bring the tension up evenly and incrementally.

Sequential tightening is in no way dysfunctional. Why would
you write that?

Ideally your rim will begin round, remain round throughout
the tensioning process and end up round. There's no need to
"unstraighten the rim as you tighten the nipples" if you
bring up the tension in one turn or half turn increments,
pausing to correct any obvious variance after each pass
around the rim.

Jobst's book is of course an excellent guide, but since
you have some experience in this area already ( we have
your famous "chicken blood" post of 27 September, 2002
prominently displayed at our truing stand), perhaps you
might write back with your further thoughts on today's
recalcitrant wheel and we'll try to analyze your
immediate problem.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

 

[Jonesy]

[email protected] (g.daniels) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The LBS or the spoke manufacturer's website has the spoke
> calculator.

[snip gibberish]

GeeDee - that's for the (non)information. It was(n't at all)
helpful. Foloowing your instructions will help me build
beautiful(ly f'ed up) wheels.

--
Jonesy

 

[Jonesy]

jim beam <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jonesy wrote: <snip>
> >
> > Here's an unrelated question: have you marked your front
> > skewer and drop-out for detection of rotation/skewer self-
> > unscrewing? Neither one of my disk-brake equipped MTBs
> > have moved in the slightest.
>
> no. i've never bothered because i've never had a problem.
> i posted some pics with carl fogel a while back:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/Img_3199.jpg
>
> [carl, thanks for keeping.]
>
> no evidence of movement and no loosening that i can tell.
> but i'm using shimano skewers and based on my ongoing bad
> experience with an open cam seat post clamp, i'd never
> use an open cam skewer to fasten something important like
> a wheel.

Yes - I have very similar drop-out indentations. No evidence
at all of rotation.

I had to take the front wheels off both bikes recently, but
the nail polish indicator lines were completely intact, with
no difference in register on either side of the fork. Now,
if I could remember where I put that bottle of polish, I
would love to re-mark them. I may have to raid my daughter's
stash again...

I am also going to disassemble the hubs soon to look at the
balls and races for signs of fretting. I do not think the
QRs are too tight, but one must account for this misuse of
the QR as well.
--
Jonesy "sceptical, still"

 

[Jonesy]

[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

[snip]

> Two different sources put the ERD of these rims at 541mm.
> I get spoke lengths calculated thusly:
>
> LF, 259.9mm RF, 261.0mm LR, 261.0mm RR, 259.7mm

Update:

I went to Portland, OR, and went to River City bicycles. A
nice person behind the repair counter checked my numbers,
and said "yup, 260mm all around will work fine."

I didn't actually have the rims in hand until today, and
then I saw
it.

The spokes could stick out a whole centimeter and never
touch the rim tape (well, if they were threaded that long,
anyway) due to the depth of the rim. After screwing a nipple
down all the way to the ends of the thread, the end of the
spoke stood a little over one millimeter proud of the end of
the nipple, more than 3mm from the bottom of the slot.
Interesting - I'd never seen a double-eyeletted rim "in the
flesh" before this.

I guess the worst thing that would happen is that the
drive side, at
259.5mm, might go to the end of the threads during
tensioning, but that would require a 2.5mm difference
for each drive side spoke. Somehow, I do not think this
is going to happen. And, since it is a disk-brake wheel,
and I have some amount of room for the wheel to be
offset to the non-drive side, even with my wide tires, I
think all is going to be just fine.

Actually, the worst thing that could happen is for me to
find out that the drive side spokes are actually slightly
too long, and that I'm going to have to get 16 258mm spokes
from somewhere. Chain Reaction, or some such. We'll see how
the front wheel builds up first - it has very similar spoke
lengths to the rear (261.0 and 259.7, vs. 259.5 and
260.). If it builds up without any hassle, then I'll tackle
the rear without worry. For some reason, building
wheels in the past has been a no-stress thing. Maybe
because they were cheap, and sort of fell together on
their own (and without disk brake rotor flanges to muck
up the works.)

Thanks for all the help, and I'll drone on some more later
about what happens. I'll do it in this thread, so if you
find it boring, kill the thread to avoid the future posts on
the subject.
--
Jonesy