Originally posted by hemplands
I've just been looking at www.cyclinghalloffame.com website. If you want any further proof at the greatest cyclist check there. Eddy Merckx has 21730points in first place and Lance has 6930 in 10th place. In between there is Hinault, Coppi, Bartali, Anquetil, Indurain, Gimondi, Bobet and Zoetemelk. I know Lance is the only one still racing but making up nearly 14000 points well pigs might fly.
Originally posted by leif_ericson
The TDF is much different than it was decades ago.
Indurain was great but I don't see that he really had the rivals... or the dominance. He did seem to always have full control of the race, but he couldn't just go out and win any mountaintop stage he wanted, like Armstrong could.
Originally posted by rob of the og
Rivals: Rominger and Zülle were both big tour winners, he thrashed Lemond in 1991, Bugno was a world champion with a strong team, Chiappucci was as good a climber as Pantani. In Armstrong's time there are 2 other tour winners in the field: Pantani and Ullrich; in Indurain's Lemond, Fignon, Delgado, Roche and (albeit later) Riis and Pantani (also Ullrich, but Mig never beat him)
Domination: How about the Lac Madine itt in 1992 when over 60km he put 3.30 into the next man (Bugno) or the climb to Hautacam in 1993 that demolished the whole field. How many times has Lance surprised his rivals and attacked on the flat (the day before a tt no less!) as Mig did in 93? In many ways Indurain is Armstrong's model, and you can look to his "strategic losses" esp to Rominger as model for Lance's early tour victories over Pantani.
My only problem with Mig though was that it all tailed off a bit. The last 2 victories were nowhere near as dramatic as the 1st 3. There were also some key losses, eg to Berzin in the 94 Giro, costing him the 3rd straight Giro-Tour double, then to Ugromov in the hilly tt of the 94 tour. We thought it was all boring at the time, but what an era to have been a cycling fan in
Originally posted by rob of the og
Chiappucci was as good a climber as Pantani.
Originally posted by Michuel
On what basis is Chiapucci as good a climber as Pantani? Pantani holds the record on Alpe d'Huez and I'm not aware of Chiapucci getting near his time. Chiapucci was a good tryer who was daring and enlivened the Tour - for instance trying to outbluff Lemond or making suicide breakaways and winning when not in contention for maillot jaune. But Pantani was fast and feared by everyone on mountains - I'd rate him just behind Gaul, Bahamontes over the last 50 years.
Originally posted by Michuel
Hi Rob
Yes it was a great victory for Chiappucci and commentators rank it among the greatest stages. At the time I tended to downgrade his performance thinking it was an easy victory before the next day's bigger mountain stage of AdH tho now I see it gave hime a 1m45s deficit on Indurain which eroded to 4m but still 2nd at Paris (after ITT). Chiappucci had the spirit that Armstrong's competitor's don't have, but I think Pantani had that same fire (I think Chiappucci chose Pantani as a youngster for his team but they quickly fell out - too big egos).
Originally posted by Cycling expert
Merckx is no comparism to armstrong.
Merckx never had any serious competition and also got gifted a tour when the leader by 20mins crashed out.
If it wasn't for that fluke he wouldn't be in the 5-time winner list.
Lance would win every tour he entered if he bothered.
Originally posted by apolack1
except of course those tours he entered in and never even finished, right. remember how he didnt finish any of the tours he entered until 99? Oh yeah, and then in 99 remember how he was gifted the win when no one else could compete b/c of the scandal the previous year?
Originally posted by tomdavis80
"Originally posted by Cycling expert
Merckx is no comparism to armstrong.
Merckx never had any serious competition and also got gifted a tour when the leader by 20mins crashed out.
If it wasn't for that fluke he wouldn't be in the 5-time winner list.
Lance would win every tour he entered if he bothered. "
Whoa, whoa, cyclingexpert, you're wrong on your assumption that Lance could win every Tour if he bothered. The problem is trying to peak for every Giro, TDF, and Vuelta. That's very difficult to do and so far no modern cyclist wants to try or even if they've tried, they've failed. Secondly, Eddy Merckx may have gotten gifted a tour, but so has practically every 5 time Tour winner. Even if the leader crashed out, what's the difference? The end result matters, Eddy won that tour. When Eddy was trying to win his 6th, you could say that the winner of that year's tour got gifted, that's because Eddy got punched in the stomach pretty damn hard by a fan, go figure. Also, food for thought, Lance was built like a linebacker and a terrible climber before he had cancer, the answer's no, not a chance in hell would he have possible won every tour if he cared.
Apolack1, don't knock Lance because he was "gifted" a tour. He had to fight off a couple rivals that year and a couple of them were quite nasty. The doping scandal didn't happen in '98, it happened in '97. I am sure that every rider here and there has occasionally gotten a cheap win because another rival was off form or crashed out or whatever and that's part of bike racing, get used to it. Besides, Richard Virenque and Alex Zulle were competing against him that year, two quality opponents.
Thomas Davis
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