Zone 3 Syndrome
- Thread starter BullGod
- Start date
Standard definition:kopride said:
- L3: 0.75-0.90 FTP
- L4: 0.90-1.05 FTP
- Tempo = L3: 0.75-0.85 FTP (steady-state 3-5 hrs work)
- Sub-threshold = UL3-LL4: 0.85-0.95 FTP (steady-state 1.5-3hrs work)
- Threshold = L4: 0.95-1.05 FTP (interval work)
Now I recognize it's really a continuum with analog shades of grey rather than discrete levels but personally I find things different once I exceed 0.95 FTP where I'm much more likely to do intervals vs. the steady-state below.
That's what I thought. If John in fact is riding at SST of 87.5%-92.5% FTP, then he is doing a lot of L4, albeit along the lower ranges. I thought he meant to say that he doesn't do L5 or L6 much.rmur17 said:
You're guidelines are great. But for those of us that are really limited to 60-90 minutes per workout, it seems to me that we need to have time in sub-threshold and threshold. being in threshold the whole time, you have recovery issues. Staying in sub threshold for might not maximize the potential for improvement. But I think if your are doing SST, you are going to spend some time at the lower ranges of L4. And there is no question that .95 seems to be a real cutoff between being able to stay in that zone for longer periods.
rmur17 said:
What I think we see sometimes on the forum is that some riders are looking to train year round, outside of work / family and want to get the best value out of their limited training time, and, in particular, raise their FTP.
Some guys also want to train for a long time with one goal in mind, their first race, an A race etc.
Some of us (myself included) are looking to prepare for an entire season, and have plenty of time to train "old school" with a long base, followed up by a period of intensity to fine tune FTP etc.
What I think the author is saying is that there can be risks in "riding as hard as you can" each time you train because you will quickly become "permanently fatigued" and your performance will stagnate. That isn't the same thing as saying "if you train L3 a lot you will not get any better". I don't think he is also advocating old school base training especially vociferously. He is just warning against riding "too fast too often" especially in the off season.
FWIW the last 2 seasons I rode Cat 1 and only rode crits. Thus in the winter I did (mainly indoor) more intense workouts of shorter durations, pretty much only L3, 4, 5 and 6. I was terrified of losing my speed, and thought that unless I was suffering I was stagnating.
At the start of the season yes I was fast and fit, and good enough to finish races. However, as the season went on I noticed I was not really improving at all, and my legs were constantly fatigued. When I was riding with elite riders I noticed I could match them for a short duration, but would find myself gasping to maintain what they lay down for longer periods seemingly effortlessly. To try and correct this I went out and trained even harder, more intervals, more L5, and then ended up doing 3 day blocks of 90 minute "hard as I can" rides, then 2 days resy before a crit. Sure, I got good at being in the hurt box for 90 mins, but generally I got slower, tired and demotivated. The reasoning process was "I got slower, I need to train faster" etc etc It got unpleasant.
This season I have moved up to elite, and since November I have been laying down 4-5 hr endurance rides on the weekends, and 3 x 2-3hr "sweet spot" based indoor sessions in the week. (240-280w / 62 - 75% of Max HR, Highest possible cadence 95+) With commuting as well I have been 20hrs a week for a month or so now, but with hardly anything over low to mid L4.
Right now I feel really strong, as if I am charging a battery - I have this feeling of freshness in my legs, and I really feel that by having clocked up so much duration in the lower intensity aerobic / sweet spot zones when it comes to turning on the speed I will quickly see some impressive results. I'll also not be fatigued from months of agony through the winter.
When season starts I'll be able to use the (weekly) classics in the spring to get massive durations in L3/4/5 which will then give me a great base to build the top end of the engine in the crits.
Some guys also want to train for a long time with one goal in mind, their first race, an A race etc.
Some of us (myself included) are looking to prepare for an entire season, and have plenty of time to train "old school" with a long base, followed up by a period of intensity to fine tune FTP etc.
What I think the author is saying is that there can be risks in "riding as hard as you can" each time you train because you will quickly become "permanently fatigued" and your performance will stagnate. That isn't the same thing as saying "if you train L3 a lot you will not get any better". I don't think he is also advocating old school base training especially vociferously. He is just warning against riding "too fast too often" especially in the off season.
FWIW the last 2 seasons I rode Cat 1 and only rode crits. Thus in the winter I did (mainly indoor) more intense workouts of shorter durations, pretty much only L3, 4, 5 and 6. I was terrified of losing my speed, and thought that unless I was suffering I was stagnating.
At the start of the season yes I was fast and fit, and good enough to finish races. However, as the season went on I noticed I was not really improving at all, and my legs were constantly fatigued. When I was riding with elite riders I noticed I could match them for a short duration, but would find myself gasping to maintain what they lay down for longer periods seemingly effortlessly. To try and correct this I went out and trained even harder, more intervals, more L5, and then ended up doing 3 day blocks of 90 minute "hard as I can" rides, then 2 days resy before a crit. Sure, I got good at being in the hurt box for 90 mins, but generally I got slower, tired and demotivated. The reasoning process was "I got slower, I need to train faster" etc etc It got unpleasant.
This season I have moved up to elite, and since November I have been laying down 4-5 hr endurance rides on the weekends, and 3 x 2-3hr "sweet spot" based indoor sessions in the week. (240-280w / 62 - 75% of Max HR, Highest possible cadence 95+) With commuting as well I have been 20hrs a week for a month or so now, but with hardly anything over low to mid L4.
Right now I feel really strong, as if I am charging a battery - I have this feeling of freshness in my legs, and I really feel that by having clocked up so much duration in the lower intensity aerobic / sweet spot zones when it comes to turning on the speed I will quickly see some impressive results. I'll also not be fatigued from months of agony through the winter.
When season starts I'll be able to use the (weekly) classics in the spring to get massive durations in L3/4/5 which will then give me a great base to build the top end of the engine in the crits.
so do I but in winter training at 8-12hrs/wk (typical for many?), it's not extended gruelling is it?john979 said:
I have to say (since no one asked
) that if I could do nothing else, I'd just ride hard to very hard for 1.5-2hrs (plus a little w/u and c/d) five days per week with one recovery day and one moderate day. I figure I could get within 3-5% of my best FTP w/o doing *any* true L4 work (> 0.95FTP) whilst building up a very good CTL base for the season.IMHO, such a routine would provide a very good balance of FTP and CTL. Working harder/shorter is better for FTP, working easier/longer is better for CTL.
I'll shut up now
just wondering re the highlighted section and assuming you use a PM and PMC, what your CTL chart was like for the season? On the face of it, this sounds like the common "running out of base" issue that seems to come fairly frequently ...BullGod said:
Your current training sounds like it's going great. If it ain't broken ....
BullGod, that someone can work up to the elite level using advice from an internet forum and without formal coaching is really impressive. Congrats!
No doubt you will be ready to go harder when the time comes, but having such a fresh, happy feeling in the legs with 20 hrs/wk of training would make me wonder if my body hadn't already adapted to the current training load and started to recover (in power terms, your FTP has now risen to the point that these rides are no longer in the "sweet spot" and are no longer providing the desired training stress -- CTL dropping and TSB rising due to an underestimated FTP and increasingly lower ride TSSs). The motivation is certainly there, but I'd like to have a tinge of weariness in the legs to help me feel that the body is still keeping up with the load.
We hit on this a little earlier in the thread, but are you making an effort to track your rising fitness during this period and adjust your "sweet spot" accordingly? I think you're using the KK power computer for indoor riding, so maybe you're tweaking up the power target on a weekly basis or something. Without using power and at least revising one's fitness estimate periodically, I think it's pretty touchy between maintaining a slowly building training load, holding steady, or actually declining in relative load as the body responds -- especially when the rides are primarily low-PE efforts. Months of riding at the same overall training load is not especially productive if one is trying to make the most use of their winter training time.BullGod said:
This part is what really struck me.BullGod said:
No doubt you will be ready to go harder when the time comes, but having such a fresh, happy feeling in the legs with 20 hrs/wk of training would make me wonder if my body hadn't already adapted to the current training load and started to recover (in power terms, your FTP has now risen to the point that these rides are no longer in the "sweet spot" and are no longer providing the desired training stress -- CTL dropping and TSB rising due to an underestimated FTP and increasingly lower ride TSSs). The motivation is certainly there, but I'd like to have a tinge of weariness in the legs to help me feel that the body is still keeping up with the load.
You're right. Although Sweet Spot is of course wholly quantifiable - for me it is often based on "feeling" both during and after. That way I can be sure to track the progress. It's also of course possible to use HR as a guide to plot against wattage. Maybe week 1 you are putting out an avge of 260w for 2 hours at "sweet spot" with an HR of 135 but in Week 4 the same HR (and feel of exertion) gets you 280w average. Of course you get this result if you ignore the wattage and go by feel a bit too. I was hoping that when you see this starting to happen FTP is creeping up as well??frenchyge said:
Bear in mind also that more than half of the 20 hours is LSD. One thing that has really made the difference for me is spinning a very rapid cadence. The legs just don't seem to hurt, and the HR and breathing rate seem slightly higher, hopefully giving me some good duration in the physical state where I will make advances on aerobic fitness, without filling my legs up with lactic. Getting used to long periods at higher cadence never does any harm.
Of course I won't know for sure what improvements I have made in FTP until I start training L4 in february (and start racing), and then hopefully a few weeks of L5 and 6 will drag it up further, but I have the feeling that high volume, lower intensity, high cadence is really helping.
Most of my teammates are sticking only to high duration / low intensity - the group rides are REALLY slow. However - I have seen these guys blitzing it in mid season. To me it seems risky to only do long / slow, so I do some moderate SST on the sly in the week - (typically a longer workout - up to 3 hours at cadence of 95+ - unique form of discomfort - like nothing I have yet experienced on a bike). I don't really see the need to target L4 just yet, and certainly no 5 or 6. Even when immediately prior to season start I won't be doing any more than 3 "intensive" training sessions a week (including races), but will ride 6 days a week (working part time from next week) Half of my training will still be LSD and Recovery.
I want to be able to deliver quality on my intervals, and not just repetition. I want to be well rested when I do them and see them improving. When they stagnate, or when I feel sore and not motivated to push them out I'll go back to riding easy and SST.
There is no real scientific theory behind my training ideas, purely what I think will work for me. And I have made virtually every mistake possible to make - including spending as much time as physically possible in L4, 5 and 6 five days a week from November to March. That got me dropped in the first race of the year and a liver disorder.
Dang! I was hoping it was middle-age, life commitments and limited training time instead.Spunout said:
FWIW, I didn't say he should feel tired, but for me when my legs start feeling really happy then I can tell it's time to retest. Inevitably, the test shows that an FTP adjustment is warranted (or even overdue). Even for "sweet spot" training one needs to know when the reference point moves, but I'm certainly no coach.
Awesome! Keep up the good work and best of luck to him.Spunout said:
Absolutely. No matter what method you use to track it, as long as the effort/load stays slightly ahead of the body, you're keeping a slight upward pressure.BullGod said:
Definitely. When you get ready to hit it, you'll feel strong as hell. Good luck.BullGod said:
From what I gather, racing in the elites means you can't really do much intense training in season. Those races totally destroy you. A classic is long and draining and a crit is pretty much upper L4 plus all the 5 and 6 you can handle without dying.
You race every week at least once, and when your form runs out you rest, go back to basics, top up your base and then race again.
This must be why everytime I have seen a local semi pro out training they've been on the inner chainring
It seems to me that very few higher level riders are allowed (or allow themselves) to undergo too many extensive training periods for specific targeted events. It seems to me a case of "get out there and ride!"
I know that a typical week for me in a few months might be saturday: 180km classic, sunday: 90km Crit, wednesday: 120km Kermesse, Saturday: 175km Classic etc.
I don't see it as either possible or wise to be doing anything other than L1 / 2 on the "days off" ??
A guy I know who has ridden elite for many years told me "we don't get overtrained, we get overraced"....
I guess the racing will hurt you more than you can ever hurt yourself in training. Doing "hard" training over and above racing might be way too tough to maintain and counter productive.
You race every week at least once, and when your form runs out you rest, go back to basics, top up your base and then race again.
This must be why everytime I have seen a local semi pro out training they've been on the inner chainring
It seems to me that very few higher level riders are allowed (or allow themselves) to undergo too many extensive training periods for specific targeted events. It seems to me a case of "get out there and ride!"
I know that a typical week for me in a few months might be saturday: 180km classic, sunday: 90km Crit, wednesday: 120km Kermesse, Saturday: 175km Classic etc.
I don't see it as either possible or wise to be doing anything other than L1 / 2 on the "days off" ??
A guy I know who has ridden elite for many years told me "we don't get overtrained, we get overraced"....
I guess the racing will hurt you more than you can ever hurt yourself in training. Doing "hard" training over and above racing might be way too tough to maintain and counter productive.
BG likes a KPH version
28 =192.20w
28.1 =193.61w
28.2 =195.03w
28.3 =196.46w
28.4 =197.89w
28.5 =199.34w
28.6 =200.79w
28.7 =202.24w
28.8 =203.71w
28.9 =205.18w
29 =206.67w
29.1 =208.16w
29.2 =209.66w
29.3 =211.16w
29.4 =212.68w
29.5 =214.20w
29.6 =215.73w
29.7 =217.27w
29.8 =218.81w
29.9 =220.37w
30 =221.93w
30.1 =223.50w
30.2 =225.08w
30.3 =226.67w
30.4 =228.27w
30.5 =229.87w
30.6 =231.49w
30.7 =233.11w
30.8 =234.74w
30.9 =236.38w
31 =238.03w
31.1 =239.68w
31.2 =241.35w
31.3 =243.02w
31.4 =244.70w
31.5 =246.39w
31.6 =248.09w
31.7 =249.80w
31.8 =251.52w
31.9 =253.24w
32 =254.98w
32.1 =256.72w
32.2 =258.47w
32.3 =260.23w
32.4 =262.00w
32.5 =263.78w
32.6 =265.57w
32.7 =267.36w
32.8 =269.17w
32.9 =270.98w
33 =272.81w
33.1 =274.64w
33.2 =276.48w
33.3 =278.33w
33.4 =280.19w
33.5 =282.06w
33.6 =283.94w
33.7 =285.83w
33.8 =287.73w
33.9 =289.63w
34 =291.55w
34.1 =293.48w
34.2 =295.41w
34.3 =297.36w
34.4 =299.31w
34.5 =301.27w
34.6 =303.24w
34.7 =305.23w
34.8 =307.22w
34.9 =309.22w
35 =311.23w
35.1 =313.25w
35.2 =315.28w
35.3 =317.32w
35.4 =319.37w
35.5 =321.43w
35.6 =323.50w
35.7 =325.58w
35.8 =327.67w
35.9 =329.77w
36 =331.88w
36.1 =334.00w
36.2 =336.13w
36.3 =338.26w
36.4 =340.41w
36.5 =342.57w
36.6 =344.74w
36.7 =346.92w
36.8 =349.11w
36.9 =351.31w
37 =353.52w
37.1 =355.74w
37.2 =357.97w
37.3 =360.21w
37.4 =362.46w
37.5 =364.72w
37.6 =366.99w
37.7 =369.27w
37.8 =371.56w
37.9 =373.87w
38 =376.18w
38.1 =378.50w
38.2 =380.84w
38.3 =383.18w
38.4 =385.53w
38.5 =387.90w
38.6 =390.28w
38.7 =392.66w
38.8 =395.06w
38.9 =397.47w
39 =399.88w
39.1 =402.32w
39.2 =404.76w
39.3 =407.21w
39.4 =409.67w
39.5 =412.14w
39.6 =414.63w
39.7 =417.12w
39.8 =419.63w
39.9 =422.14w
40 =424.67w
40.1 =427.21w
40.2 =429.76w
40.3 =432.32w
40.4 =434.89w
40.5 =437.48w
40.6 =440.07w
40.7 =442.68w
40.8 =445.29w
40.9 =447.92w
41 =450.56w
41.1 =453.21w
41.2 =455.87w
41.3 =458.55w
41.4 =461.23w
41.5 =463.93w
41.6 =466.64w
41.7 =469.36w
41.8 =472.09w
41.9 =474.83w
42 =477.58w
42.1 =480.35w
42.2 =483.12w
42.3 =485.91w
42.4 =488.71w
42.5 =491.52w
42.6 =494.35w
42.7 =497.18w
42.8 =500.03w
42.9 =502.89w
43 =505.76w
43.1 =508.64w
43.2 =511.54w
43.3 =514.44w
43.4 =517.36w
43.5 =520.29w
43.6 =523.24w
43.7 =526.19w
43.8 =529.16w
43.9 =532.14w
44 =535.13w
44.1 =538.13w
44.2 =541.14w
44.3 =544.17w
44.4 =547.21w
44.5 =550.26w
44.6 =553.33w
44.7 =556.40w
44.8 =559.49w
44.9 =562.59w
45 =565.71w
45.1 =568.83w
45.2 =571.97w
45.3 =575.12w
45.4 =578.28w
45.5 =581.46w
45.6 =584.65w
45.7 =587.85w
45.8 =591.06w
45.9 =594.29w
46 =597.53w
46.1 =600.78w
28 =192.20w
28.1 =193.61w
28.2 =195.03w
28.3 =196.46w
28.4 =197.89w
28.5 =199.34w
28.6 =200.79w
28.7 =202.24w
28.8 =203.71w
28.9 =205.18w
29 =206.67w
29.1 =208.16w
29.2 =209.66w
29.3 =211.16w
29.4 =212.68w
29.5 =214.20w
29.6 =215.73w
29.7 =217.27w
29.8 =218.81w
29.9 =220.37w
30 =221.93w
30.1 =223.50w
30.2 =225.08w
30.3 =226.67w
30.4 =228.27w
30.5 =229.87w
30.6 =231.49w
30.7 =233.11w
30.8 =234.74w
30.9 =236.38w
31 =238.03w
31.1 =239.68w
31.2 =241.35w
31.3 =243.02w
31.4 =244.70w
31.5 =246.39w
31.6 =248.09w
31.7 =249.80w
31.8 =251.52w
31.9 =253.24w
32 =254.98w
32.1 =256.72w
32.2 =258.47w
32.3 =260.23w
32.4 =262.00w
32.5 =263.78w
32.6 =265.57w
32.7 =267.36w
32.8 =269.17w
32.9 =270.98w
33 =272.81w
33.1 =274.64w
33.2 =276.48w
33.3 =278.33w
33.4 =280.19w
33.5 =282.06w
33.6 =283.94w
33.7 =285.83w
33.8 =287.73w
33.9 =289.63w
34 =291.55w
34.1 =293.48w
34.2 =295.41w
34.3 =297.36w
34.4 =299.31w
34.5 =301.27w
34.6 =303.24w
34.7 =305.23w
34.8 =307.22w
34.9 =309.22w
35 =311.23w
35.1 =313.25w
35.2 =315.28w
35.3 =317.32w
35.4 =319.37w
35.5 =321.43w
35.6 =323.50w
35.7 =325.58w
35.8 =327.67w
35.9 =329.77w
36 =331.88w
36.1 =334.00w
36.2 =336.13w
36.3 =338.26w
36.4 =340.41w
36.5 =342.57w
36.6 =344.74w
36.7 =346.92w
36.8 =349.11w
36.9 =351.31w
37 =353.52w
37.1 =355.74w
37.2 =357.97w
37.3 =360.21w
37.4 =362.46w
37.5 =364.72w
37.6 =366.99w
37.7 =369.27w
37.8 =371.56w
37.9 =373.87w
38 =376.18w
38.1 =378.50w
38.2 =380.84w
38.3 =383.18w
38.4 =385.53w
38.5 =387.90w
38.6 =390.28w
38.7 =392.66w
38.8 =395.06w
38.9 =397.47w
39 =399.88w
39.1 =402.32w
39.2 =404.76w
39.3 =407.21w
39.4 =409.67w
39.5 =412.14w
39.6 =414.63w
39.7 =417.12w
39.8 =419.63w
39.9 =422.14w
40 =424.67w
40.1 =427.21w
40.2 =429.76w
40.3 =432.32w
40.4 =434.89w
40.5 =437.48w
40.6 =440.07w
40.7 =442.68w
40.8 =445.29w
40.9 =447.92w
41 =450.56w
41.1 =453.21w
41.2 =455.87w
41.3 =458.55w
41.4 =461.23w
41.5 =463.93w
41.6 =466.64w
41.7 =469.36w
41.8 =472.09w
41.9 =474.83w
42 =477.58w
42.1 =480.35w
42.2 =483.12w
42.3 =485.91w
42.4 =488.71w
42.5 =491.52w
42.6 =494.35w
42.7 =497.18w
42.8 =500.03w
42.9 =502.89w
43 =505.76w
43.1 =508.64w
43.2 =511.54w
43.3 =514.44w
43.4 =517.36w
43.5 =520.29w
43.6 =523.24w
43.7 =526.19w
43.8 =529.16w
43.9 =532.14w
44 =535.13w
44.1 =538.13w
44.2 =541.14w
44.3 =544.17w
44.4 =547.21w
44.5 =550.26w
44.6 =553.33w
44.7 =556.40w
44.8 =559.49w
44.9 =562.59w
45 =565.71w
45.1 =568.83w
45.2 =571.97w
45.3 =575.12w
45.4 =578.28w
45.5 =581.46w
45.6 =584.65w
45.7 =587.85w
45.8 =591.06w
45.9 =594.29w
46 =597.53w
46.1 =600.78w
kopride said:
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