Cycle safety

[Peter Clinch]

Ekul Namsob wrote:

> What I still don't understand is why the UCI made helmets compulsory.
> The cynic in me would believe that it was a result of pressure from
> helmet manufacturers.

Don't always put down to malice what you can put down to incompetence.
Could be as simple as, "X crashed and got a head injury. We must do
something. This is something. We'll do this, then!"

Beyond that, they look good for "improving" safety, the lid makers are
pleased, cycle shops have more toys to sell.

And to be fair, as with motor-sport, a race situation where sensible
riding has less priority than usual and going as fast as possible has
rather more /is/ a more appropriate place for a crash hat than day to
day A to B. In NL it's pretty clear that helmets are for (some) sport
riding and pretty much nobody else bothers. In a weekend in Amsterdam I
spotted 10 helmets: 7 on roadies, 1 enlycra-d MTB rider and a couple of
tourers who looked rather non-local. Putting 10 helmets in a weekend
into perspective, you'll see /thousands/ of riders in total.

Over here the way the market works is a lot about selling sporty
leisure. And if you're sporty you've got to look the part
(apparently...). It's a bit like replica football kit in some ways, I
suppose.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Dave Larrington]

In news:[email protected],
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell
us:
> Ekul Namsob wrote:
>
>> What I still don't understand is why the UCI made helmets compulsory.
>> The cynic in me would believe that it was a result of pressure from
>> helmet manufacturers.
>
> Don't always put down to malice what you can put down to incompetence.
> Could be as simple as, "X crashed and got a head injury. We must do
> something. This is something. We'll do this, then!"

IIRC it was the death of Andrei Kivilev from head injuries sustained in a
crash on Paris-Nice which prompted them to do it.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Apparently Guy has now got a Brompton. I'd never have guessed.

 

[Andy Leighton]

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:39:55 +0000,
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
> Over here the way the market works is a lot about selling sporty
> leisure. And if you're sporty you've got to look the part
> (apparently...).

If that is true (and I think it is) then it is obviously essential
if you are a helmet manufacturer to get sportsmen (in the TDF and
on track) wearing helmets.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:39:55 +0000, Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>And to be fair, as with motor-sport, a race situation where sensible
>riding has less priority than usual and going as fast as possible has
>rather more /is/ a more appropriate place for a crash hat than day to
>day A to B.

Are you sure about that?

The concensus seems to be that there may be some value for the kind of
incident that would produce minor cuts and bruises, but for major
incidents the value is zero or negative. Given the higher speed of
racers, the second is more likely...

 

[dkahn400]

On 28 Feb, 12:16, [email protected] wrote:

> Are you sure about that?
>
> The concensus seems to be that there may be some value for the kind of
> incident that would produce minor cuts and bruises, but for major
> incidents the value is zero or negative. Given the higher speed of
> racers, the second is more likely...

Going down in a bunch with flailing pedals and bar ends everywhere I
can see how a helmet could well save a rider an injury.

--
Dave...

 

[Tony Raven]

dkahn400 wrote on 28/02/2007 13:09 +0100:
> On 28 Feb, 12:16, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Are you sure about that?
>>
>> The concensus seems to be that there may be some value for the kind of
>> incident that would produce minor cuts and bruises, but for major
>> incidents the value is zero or negative. Given the higher speed of
>> racers, the second is more likely...
>
> Going down in a bunch with flailing pedals and bar ends everywhere I
> can see how a helmet could well save a rider an injury.
>

There have been reports from the US of an increase in racing cyclist
deaths and injuries since helmets became mandatory. I think BikeBiz ran
the story a year or so ago.


--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:52:09 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>dkahn400 wrote on 28/02/2007 13:09 +0100:
>> On 28 Feb, 12:16, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Are you sure about that?
>>>
>>> The concensus seems to be that there may be some value for the kind of
>>> incident that would produce minor cuts and bruises, but for major
>>> incidents the value is zero or negative. Given the higher speed of
>>> racers, the second is more likely...
>>
>> Going down in a bunch with flailing pedals and bar ends everywhere I
>> can see how a helmet could well save a rider an injury.
>>
>
>There have been reports from the US of an increase in racing cyclist
>deaths and injuries since helmets became mandatory. I think BikeBiz ran
>the story a year or so ago.

More or less duplicates the results for the general population.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Tony Raven
('[email protected]') wrote:

> dkahn400 wrote on 28/02/2007 13:09 +0100:
>> On 28 Feb, 12:16, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Are you sure about that?
>>>
>>> The concensus seems to be that there may be some value for the kind of
>>> incident that would produce minor cuts and bruises, but for major
>>> incidents the value is zero or negative. Given the higher speed of
>>> racers, the second is more likely...
>>
>> Going down in a bunch with flailing pedals and bar ends everywhere I
>> can see how a helmet could well save a rider an injury.
>
> There have been reports from the US of an increase in racing cyclist
> deaths and injuries since helmets became mandatory. I think BikeBiz ran
> the story a year or so ago.

Not all fatal racer crashes get publicity, of course. Nevertheless it's
strongly my opinion that there's been at least no decline in deaths or
serious casualties since the rule came in.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; not so much a refugee from reality, more a bogus
;; asylum seeker

 

[Don Whybrow]

Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> Not all fatal racer crashes get publicity, of course. Nevertheless it's
> strongly my opinion that there's been at least no decline in deaths or
> serious casualties since the rule came in.

Has anyone been keeping records for this? It would be useful information
to show the effectiveness of lids.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"I suppose they are vicious rascals, but it scarcely matters
what they are. I'm after what they know." (Gibson-Sterling, The
Difference Engine)

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Don Whybrow
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>
>> Not all fatal racer crashes get publicity, of course. Nevertheless it's
>> strongly my opinion that there's been at least no decline in deaths or
>> serious casualties since the rule came in.
>
> Has anyone been keeping records for this? It would be useful information
> to show the effectiveness of lids.

Yes, it would, and no, as far as I know they haven't. I did think about
setting up a website to collect reports, but it would be very hit-or-miss.
We don't, as a baseline, know how many cyclists ride how many races in a
given year. If the number of people actually riding in races is going up,
then it may not be a bad thing that the absolute number of casualties
isn't dropping (if that is so).

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

 

[dkahn400]

On Feb 28, 1:52 pm, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> dkahn400 wrote on 28/02/2007 13:09 +0100:

> There have been reports from the US of an increase in racing
> cyclist deaths and injuries since helmets became mandatory. I
> think BikeBiz ran the story a year or so ago.

Are they in great enough numbers to be statistically significant?

--
Dave...

 

[Stanley]

Well I only said that I tended to disagree..... If I may stick my head above
the parapet for a moment.

I can assure you it was not a Troll comment. I learned to ride a bike about
53 years ago and have played, toured, time trialled, and commuted through
all those years and now potter about on a tandem or a hack iron.

In that time I have had ONE crash where I would have liked a helmet. I
turned out of the gate onto black ice and went down instantly. My head hit
the road with a terrific bang. Saw stars but no damage. All my other
accidents have been sliding ones. I think 3/4" of packaging material would
have been nice on that one occasion. I was lucky.

I have read loads of information about the endless tests.

I suppose it all depends on the angle of fall, speed and countless other
factors. (I'm not quite sure why helmets would not cause rotational injuries
off road.)

I was just concerned that a rider new to cycling was being advised NOT to
wear a helmet when riding on the road. His speed is likely to be modest and
a helmet properly worn might provide a bit of padding in the event of a
spill. If he decides he doesn't want to..... that's fine. I'm not after
compulsion.

I'll carry on wearing mine. My choice.

I am sorry my humble opinion is so objectionable to so many.



--
Derby, England.

Don't try to email me using "REPLY" as the email address is NoSpam. Our
email address is "thewoodies2 at ntlworld dot com"

 

[DavidR]

"MJ Ray" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> But do they give any benefit over using a good adaptive soft saddle?

Is there such a thing? All the gel saddles I have seen are too soft where
they shouldn't be soft. Even the chassis is wrong.

 

[Peter Clinch]

Stanley wrote:

> I have read loads of information about the endless tests.

Part of the problem is that there aren't "endless tests". There are
very limited numbers of rather narrow tests and studies and consequently
there is a lot of assumption and not much good data. Probably the best
data is what has happened in countries with large take-up, and that is
basically /nothing/ with respect to serious head injuries.

> I suppose it all depends on the angle of fall, speed and countless other
> factors. (I'm not quite sure why helmets would not cause rotational injuries
> off road.)

It's not that they wouldn't, it's you're far more likely to come off in
the sort of accident (low speed, no other vehicles, non-serious injury
potential) that the helmet is actually designed to protect against.

> I was just concerned that a rider new to cycling was being advised NOT to
> wear a helmet when riding on the road. His speed is likely to be modest and
> a helmet properly worn might provide a bit of padding in the event of a
> spill.

Nobody advises pedestrians or non-racing motorists to wear helmets. The
risks of serious head injury are remarkably similar, so there is no
point in making a special exception for bikes. Doing otherwise paints a
false picture of the risks of cycling and helps to put people off it
(after all, it /must/ be dangerous with all those folk wearing special
crash helmets!).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:34:03 GMT someone who may be "Stanley"
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I was just concerned that a rider new to cycling was being advised NOT to
>wear a helmet when riding on the road.

Racing car drivers wear proper seat belts, fire resistant clothes
and helmets. Should people new to motoring be advised to wear these
things because racing car drivers do?

>I'm not after compulsion.
>
>I'll carry on wearing mine. My choice.
>
>I am sorry my humble opinion is so objectionable to so many.

The Department of/for Roads have stated on several occasions that
they will introduce helmet compulsion for cyclists when enough
cyclists are wearing one "voluntarily". Thus, like it or not, your
choice will affect other people's choices. Everyone who wears a
cycle helmet is, in the eyes of the Department of/for Roads, voting
for compulsion.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[MJ Ray]

"DavidR" <[email protected]>
> "MJ Ray" <[email protected]> wrote
> > But do they give any benefit over using a good adaptive soft saddle?
>
> Is there such a thing? All the gel saddles I have seen are too soft where
> they shouldn't be soft. Even the chassis is wrong.

After the somewhat skeptical response on this group, I took a look in two
LBSes when passing and there didn't seem to be any on offer there - just
one poor mushy thing. Maybe it's not economic, given how old mine is!
--
MJ Ray - see/vidu http://mjr.towers.org.uk/email.html
Webmaster/web developer, statistician, sysadmin, online shop maker,
developer of koha, debian, gobo, gnustep, various mail and web s/w.
Workers co-op @ Weston-super-Mare, Somerset http://www.ttllp.co.uk/