Armstrong's advance retirement notice: why?

[wolfix]

The issue at hand was gentlmn post, message 3 on the thread : here

There's no doubt that as Armstrong is riding this year, in pursuit of number 7, he is going to be viewed by cycling historians as one of the best of all time, mentioned in the same words as the incomparable Eddy Merckx. The guy is an unbelievable force in the Tour. Since 1999, a long 7 Tours, he has been the one to beat, the one the others long to best and cannot. The domination has been long and deep. It's quite a joy to see this Tour, his last. He's chosen to go out at the top of his game. I believe he will go out too. He knows it's going to be a glorious moment, to leave when everyone is still applauding, and he is still in his prime. Cycling fans will still be talking of Armstrong a century from now. He's one of the greats.

I disputed gentlmn's conclusion derived from 6 T'sDF victories and his point that LA was comparable to EM.

I don't believe that LA record as cyclist is within a country mile of EM's record
as a cyclist.

I think LA success in the TDF is significant but not at the level of EM, for reasons expressed earlier.

So that is the issue, Cheap.

Merckx rode his tours with weaker competition....... If this was the early 70's and the Tour was on ...... Think who would not be there..... Ullrich, Vino, Voigt, Popovych,Wegman & Kloden would still be behind the wall. Armstrong , Zabriskie,Julich, Hincapie, Liepheimer would not be there because Americans had no program, plus some others........Let's not forget about those Austrailian rockets from down-under. Look who these riders are and what they accomplished this year. Armstrong won his tours against a international field where Merckx won his 5 tours against a limited European field. Not all Europeans were allowed to race.
Althletes are trained diffferently today...... In a earlier post I talked about periodization & peaking. That is the biggest change in the TDF today other then the international field. We understand the athlete's body better today. A rider cannot be competitive all year. I doubt if Merckx would have won 20% of the races he won in todays enviroment.
In defense of Merckx though. Both Merckx and Armstrong seem to have that "killer instinct" that some gifted riders do not have. Both are absolute heros. They rode, they won.
Both riders did what they had to do to win the Tour de France during the times that they rode. That is why I find the criticism against Armstrong so ridiculous.
My vote goes to Armstrong as being the "greatest" TDF rider with his 6 , possibly 7 wins against a larger field of riders.
I am a traditionalist. I loved the days when the yellow went off the front to a long solo win. Indurain changed that with" Grind them down and TT them to death ........." I also love wool jerseys, 5 speed freewheel blocks, steel lugged frames, and down tube shifters.
But ...... The most epic ride of the TDF was neither Merckx nor Armstrong .... It was Lemond taking back the 50+ seconds from Fignon on the last stage.... Let the arguments begin !!!!!!!!!

 

[homeycheese]

The issue at hand was gentlmn post, message 3 on the thread : here

There's no doubt that as Armstrong is riding this year, in pursuit of number 7, he is going to be viewed by cycling historians as one of the best of all time, mentioned in the same words as the incomparable Eddy Merckx. The guy is an unbelievable force in the Tour. Since 1999, a long 7 Tours, he has been the one to beat, the one the others long to best and cannot. The domination has been long and deep. It's quite a joy to see this Tour, his last. He's chosen to go out at the top of his game. I believe he will go out too. He knows it's going to be a glorious moment, to leave when everyone is still applauding, and he is still in his prime. Cycling fans will still be talking of Armstrong a century from now. He's one of the greats.

I disputed gentlmn's conclusion derived from 6 T'sDF victories and his point that LA was comparable to EM.

I don't believe that LA record as cyclist is within a country mile of EM's record
as a cyclist.

I think LA success in the TDF is significant but not at the level of EM, for reasons expressed earlier.

So that is the issue, Cheap.

come on lim, parse the sentance again "...viewed by cycling historians as one of the best of all time, mentioned in the same words as the incomparable Eddy Merckx"

and where do you get "his point that LA was comparable to EM"?

"He's one of the greats" is what is written....

"one of the best", "one of the greats", not "better" not "the best" not "comparable"

 

[Flyer]

Periodization and peaking?

Oh yeah, Merckx & Coppi never heard of that concept.

Traditionalist?

Lemond taking back time of Fignon? Pedro Delgado was the strongest man in the 1989 Tour and he took back time on BOTH Lemond & Fignon by Paris.

He gave them both a head start of several minutes.

The only difference from 1984 on was the integration of EPO and anemia methods into the peloton. Blood transfusions and spinners were already used at the 1984 Olypics and Amgen was rolling out EPOGEN for experiments. (after 1994 100% was using EPO) still are as we lerned yesterday. (no tests, just customs checks)

Sustainable power increased, TT average speed rose and Mountains were climbed in the big ring.

Now non-climber sprinters such as George Hincapie can blow out Botero, Moreau and Mayo near the top of high mountains. Not natural at all.

Cycling is just like Major League Baseball with its meaningless statistics and corrupted records.

When Genetech or FibroGen or BioPure come out with a new blood booster/renal juicer---and only one team gets it---look for 10 TDF victories to fall.

Life sciences and corporate funding dictate performances now, not athletes.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

Come on. This whole discussion is just like the grade school arguments of who's better "Superman vs. Batman" (superman) or the "Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt or Jeff Gordon" (Earnhardt) arguments on the NASCAR boards. 1). You're never going to change anyones mind over the net and 2) You can't really compare the two because of changes in the sport. LA and EM were/are both remarkable talents that I have tremendous respect for. Let's leave it at that.



L

 

[MJtje]

Pfffffff will people learn: YOU CAN'T COMPARE ERA'S PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Still LA has to be considered the greatest TDF rider..........however not the greatest that ever exist. No more, no less...........

Yeah right.

If there was no intention to tarnish EM - why did you post this ?
"1999-2005 TDF palmares blow away any comparisions to Merckx and Hinault."

Oh, that's right you werren't trying to tarnish Merckx.

 

[limerickman]

OK : I have expressed an opinion : members can agree/disagree/dissent with my view.

I don't want to fall out with anyone about an issue which will never be resolved
either way.

 

[limerickman]

The most epic ride of the TDF was neither Merckx nor Armstrong .... It was Lemond taking back the 50+ seconds from Fignon on the last stage.... Let the arguments begin !!!!!!!!!

How about Chiapucci at Sestriere ?

Both rides were epic, Wolf.
LeMond's TT was superb.
I enjoyed El Diablo's ride too.

 

[wolfix]

Come on. This whole discussion is just like the grade school arguments of who's better "Superman vs. Batman" (superman) or the "Richard Petty, Dale Earnhardt or Jeff Gordon" (Earnhardt) arguments on the NASCAR boards. 1). You're never going to change anyones mind over the net and 2) You can't really compare the two because of changes in the sport. LA and EM were/are both remarkable talents that I have tremendous respect for. Let's leave it at that.



L

If we left it at that, what would we do with all our spare time??? Ride our bikes ????? Yeah, right...... In about 30 years I will be sitting in an Irish pub arguing with Limerickman about this very subject. And on the subject of "Superman vs Batman" I know that Frank Sinatra would kick both their asses if they wore those stupid tights into a bar where he was drinking .......

 

[limerickman]

If we left it at that, what would we do with all our spare time??? Ride our bikes ????? Yeah, right...... In about 30 years I will be sitting in an Irish pub arguing with Limerickman about this very subject. And on the subject of "Superman vs Batman" I know that Frank Sinatra would kick both their asses if they wore those stupid tights into a bar where he was drinking .......

.....and I'll still be waiting for you to buy a round !

 

[wolfix]

How about Chiapucci at Sestriere ?

Both rides were epic, Wolf.
LeMond's TT was superb.
I enjoyed El Diablo's ride too.

Agreed...... He put it to Indurain. We need El Diablo again. Chiappuci's ride at Sestriere was a epic inspiring ride. But , it gets better for me. I think the next day Andy Hampsten won the L'Alpe d' Huez. Hampsten is a favorite of mine. The Giro ride of Hampsten's ......Hampsten rode with Raleigh Levi team here in the states, pre-TDF days. One of his friends and mentors was a friend of mine.
The Giro has become my favorite tour. I admit that Armstrong/TDF has been my focus for the last 3 years, but.......

 

[limerickman]

Agreed...... He put it to Indurain. We need El Diablo again. Chiappuci's ride at Sestriere was a epic inspiring ride. But , it gets better for me. I think the next day Andy Hampsten won the L'Alpe d' Huez. Hampsten is a favorite of mine. The Giro ride of Hampsten's ......Hampsten rode with Raleigh Levi team here in the states, pre-TDF days. One of his friends and mentors was a friend of mine.
The Giro has become my favorite tour. I admit that Armstrong/TDF has been my focus for the last 3 years, but.......

Hampsten on Alp D'Huez !
Now that you mention it - that was superb.
It does get overshadowed by El Diablo but you're right, that was some win for Hampsten.
He was in the Motorola colours that day : fantastic.

 

[sopas]

... and what about the greatest ITT ever...

Indurain at Luxembourg in 1992!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[limerickman]

... and what about the greatest ITT ever...

Indurain at Luxembourg in 1992!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The memories flood back : that was some performance.
BigMig literally flew that day.
Fignon coined the name "ET - Extra Terrestrial"

You know that one of the all time great Charly Gaul - who is from Luxembourg - was living as a recluse at that time, watched that very ITT.
Gaul was so impressed that he came out of hibernation and contacted the TDF requesting to meet BigMig, after seeing that ITT.

Gaul formed a great friendship with BigMig and re-connected with his great rival and climbing opponent, The Eagle of Toledo, Federico Bahamontes, as well through meeting BigMig.

So yes that was a very special stage in more ways than one.

 

[sopas]

The memories flood back : that was some performance.
BigMig literally flew that day.
Fignon coined the name "ET - Extra Terrestrial"

You know that one of the all time great Charly Gaul - who is from Luxembourg - was living as a recluse at that time, watched that very ITT.
Gaul was so impressed that he came out of hibernation and contacted the TDF requesting to meet BigMig, after seeing that ITT.

Gaul formed a great friendship with BigMig and re-connected with his great rival and climbing opponent, The Eagle of Toledo, Federico Bahamontes, as well through meeting BigMig.

So yes that was a very special stage in more ways than one.

I didn't know that Limerickman!!!
I always learn something new everyday. Thanks!

 

[limerickman]

I didn't know that Limerickman!!!
I always learn something new everyday. Thanks!

No problem.

David Duffield of Eurosport told that story on TV several times.
it's a great story, i think.

 

[gntlmn]

Merckx talent and ability and dedication allowed him to win all year round, in every type of race.
LA (and anyone else for that matter) does not have the same ability, the same talent, the same dedication to win all year round, in every type of race.

Even Eddy Merckx didn't have the ability to win year round in 2004 or 2005. It cannot be done anymore. The game has changed. You fail to mention this. I believe even Eddy Merckx would admit this publicly. If he doesn't, he's failing to look objectively at the facts, just as you don't.

 

[renoster]

The world of cycling has seen some phenomenal athletes, including the like of Raymond Poulidor, who never got to wear a yellow jersey. Perhaps we should just settle on a Pantheon of the 'Gods' including Mercxx as Zeuss, Hinault, Coppi, Bahamontes, Gaul, Armstrong, Indurain, Anquetil.

Few would question EM's status as the greatest ever, but the others, and some I have failed to mention, all deserve great reverence as absolute icons of their era.

 

[sopas]

What I am afraid of is who will be the next champion after LA???

After Mercxk, came Hinault, after Hinault camen Lemond, Afte Lemond, Indurain, after Indurain the future seemed good with Ulrich until LA appeared in scene. But now with LA gone I don't see anyone at the same level around. Perhaps will will have 5 or 6 years in the cycling world without a pure dominator.

 

[cheapie]

i hope you're right!!! i could use a tour that was contested until the last day. while i'm a fan, i'm almost sorry that he's so great because OLN doesn't seem to realize that there's a bunch of great american riders.

 

[Flyer]

There are thousands of potential candidates. No shortage whatsever.

And whomever cuts a deal with Genetech may win 10 TDFs. Just a matter of aligning life science, connections, and fatalism (win at all cost mentality).

All records will be broken--including LA's.

What I am afraid of is who will be the next champion after LA???

After Mercxk, came Hinault, after Hinault camen Lemond, Afte Lemond, Indurain, after Indurain the future seemed good with Ulrich until LA appeared in scene. But now with LA gone I don't see anyone at the same level around. Perhaps will will have 5 or 6 years in the cycling world without a pure dominator.