Bicyclist killed by woman driver who was downloading cell phone ring tones



Don Klipstein wrote:
> ...
> Philadelphia has bike lanes on many of their streets, and the bike lanes
> are in the streets.
>
> I feel safer with these than without them.

The bicycle/parking lane is often the motor vehicle passing lane for
those going twice the speed limit.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!
 
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> Er Bob,
>
> The victim was the 25 year old U of I graduate. The driver was 19 years
> old (occupation unstated in the News Gazette article).
>

Oooops, my bad. I withdraw my comment about Champaign County's
domination by the U of I. It's still true but has no connection with
this case. Thanks for correcting me.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
Zoot Katz wrote:
> On 3 Dec 2006 15:46:24 -0800, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >On the positive side- if it can be called "positive"- Ms Stark's age
> >and education mean that presumably she has quite a few years left in
> >the workforce to pay the real and punitive damages a civil jury will
> >most likely grant the decedent's survivors.
>
> Wouldn't her insurance company pay those damages? It's not like she's
> been charged with anything more serious than inappropriate lane use.
> All she'd be faced with is higher insurance premiums in the future.
> That's not going to cause her enough hardship to teach her anything.
>
> If she didn't have sufficient liability insurance to cover the
> damages, what's to stop her from getting a shrink to say she's too
> traumatised to work and have her end up on welfare. Or at 19 yrs. is
> she considered a minor whose parents can be held accountable?
> --

Her insurance is liable up to her the limits of her policy. After that,
she's on her own. As for the possibility that she would subsequently
not work and live on welfare to avoid paying any damages, that'd be
rather like some criminals I've met that committed their crimes with
the *intent* of getting arrested and going to prison. Sure, it can be
done but its a tough way to make a living. Finally, no. At 19 she's an
adult and her parents can't be held liable for any judgement against
her. The same can't be said about any future husband she may have so it
would seem that in the scenario you imagine- inadequate insurance
coverage and a life on welfare- her driving would doom her to a life of
unmarried poverty. Who says there is no justice?

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
"Don Klipstein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Philadelphia has bike lanes on many of their streets, and the bike lanes
> are in the streets.

Yes, and a huge number of them are in the door zone. They are worse than
useless; they make cycling more dangerous because drivers feel free to
squeeze you from the left while parked drivers feel free to emerge from
their cars without looking because they don't think there will be any cars
near them.

> I feel safer with these than without them.

Just goes to show how you can feel safe without being safe.

> However, Philadelphia has
> two big issues to fix, which don't appear too related to bike lanes since
> the offenses also occur on streets that don't have them:

You go on to list problems common to urban cycling in any city. Philadelphia
is no worse than most of the cities I've ridden in, and better than many.
The solution is always the same: take the lane, hold your line, obey the
rules, be predictable, ignore assholes. Assert your rights and be visible in
doing so, and don't catch the drivers by surprise. They don't improvise
well.

RichC
 
In article <[email protected]>, Rich Clark wrote:
>
>"Don Klipstein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> Philadelphia has bike lanes on many of their streets, and the bike lanes
>> are in the streets.
>
>Yes, and a huge number of them are in the door zone. They are worse than
>useless; they make cycling more dangerous because drivers feel free to
>squeeze you from the left while parked drivers feel free to emerge from
>their cars without looking because they don't think there will be any cars
>near them.

In my experience with Philly's bike lanes, doors do not swing over the
whole bike lane. The bike lane is wide enough to squeeze by people
exiting cars.

Of course, a good loud horn helps!

The one main hazard I see from bike lanes is cars suddenly shifting onto
the lane to make a right turn. As a result, I usually do not outrun
moving cars by a speed margin greater than that which I feel I can
rear-end one without too much injury and bike damage. My only crash in a
bike lane was rear-ending someone who suddenly swerved rightward
ahead of making a right turn without signaling.

Meanwhile, I have been doored a few times in the past, never in a bike
lane. I have been rear-ended once, not in a bike lane. I have had
passing cars hit me with their side view mirrors 3 times, all of them on a
street without a bike lane. I have been clipped by a sudden-right-turner
on a street without a bike lane, although bike lanes don't solve that
particular hazard. I would say I have good reason to feel safer with bike
lanes than without them.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
nash wrote:
> >>?>>> It does seem that the prosecuting attorney made a very poor choice in
> > her choice of prosecution. Under U.S. law, the driver cannot be tried a
> > second time for the same crime.
>
> Seems to me like they made a very poor choice of careers!

Proving a serious crime (negligent or reckless homicide) is really
tough in these cases. There was recently a controversial case here in
Madison that ended in a hung jury:
http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=/tct/2006/08/02/0608020434.php
The driver's eyes were probably off the road for at least 12 seconds.
The jury deadlocked, and the prosecutor decided not to retry the case.

These are difficult cases because everyone talks on the phone while
driving, everyone catches himself driving badly on occasion, and
everyone has "not seen" a cyclist at one time or another. The "it was
just an accident" defense resounds with drivers/jurors. We cyclists
are always outraged, but the community at large seems awfully
ambivalent about these fatalities... I think that's why this prosecutor
didn't charge higher.

-Vee
 
Vee wrote:
> nash wrote:
> > >>?>>> It does seem that the prosecuting attorney made a very poor choice in
> > > her choice of prosecution. Under U.S. law, the driver cannot be tried a
> > > second time for the same crime.
> >
> > Seems to me like they made a very poor choice of careers!
>
> Proving a serious crime (negligent or reckless homicide) is really
> tough in these cases. There was recently a controversial case here in
> Madison that ended in a hung jury:
> http://www.madison.com/archives/read.php?ref=/tct/2006/08/02/0608020434.php
> The driver's eyes were probably off the road for at least 12 seconds.
> The jury deadlocked, and the prosecutor decided not to retry the case.
>
> These are difficult cases because everyone talks on the phone while
> driving, everyone catches himself driving badly on occasion, and
> everyone has "not seen" a cyclist at one time or another. The "it was
> just an accident" defense resounds with drivers/jurors. We cyclists
> are always outraged, but the community at large seems awfully
> ambivalent about these fatalities... I think that's why this prosecutor
> didn't charge higher.
>
> -Vee

By the way, the Madison case I linked to above is interesting in a
couple other ways. First, the prosecutor in the case, John Norsetter,
is highly regarded and very competent. Plus, he rides his bike to work
every day. Second, the jury was split ten to two, with ten in favor of
acquittal. If he can't win one of these cases, I don't know who can.

-Vee
 
Robert Coe wrote:
<snip>

> Driving *is* a god given right, but those who do it so dangerously should be
> dealt with harshly. So I both agree with you and think you're full of sh*t.

Try looking up "license" in the dictionary. Driving is a priviledge.

If it were a right, we could not tell those medically incapable of
safely doing so (such as epileptics with uncontrolled seizures) that
they can not drive. We also could not require passing a (rediculously
simple) driving test.

Austin
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:17:33 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]>
> wrote:

<snip>

> >Plus I am in the highest brain sex category by a British Study that you can
> >be. I am meticulous about spelling and grammar and am smarter than most
> >male brains and most female brains combined. I work 4X better than you Carl
> >Fogel
> >Too bad, you are plonked. DOA
>
> Dear Nash,
>
> Judging by your increasingly bizarre posts elsewhere, I suppose that
> your "brain sex study" was on some television show ten years ago.
>
> Possibly "The Simpsons"?

It also sounds like he's been taking humility lessons from the great
E.D.

Austin
 
AustinMN wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:17:33 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > >Plus I am in the highest brain sex category by a British Study that you can
> > >be. I am meticulous about spelling and grammar and am smarter than most
> > >male brains and most female brains combined. I work 4X better than you Carl
> > >Fogel
> > >Too bad, you are plonked. DOA
> >

> > Dear Nash,
> >
> > Judging by your increasingly bizarre posts elsewhere, I suppose that
> > your "brain sex study" was on some television show ten years ago.
> >
> > Possibly "The Simpsons"?
>


I already sent this in but please tell everyone how you do. If you can
be honest that is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

If I am bizarre it is from spending too much time on you self important
people.
 
On 4 Dec 2006 13:22:37 -0800, "nash" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>AustinMN wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>> > On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:17:33 GMT, "nash" <[email protected]>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > >Plus I am in the highest brain sex category by a British Study that you can
>> > >be. I am meticulous about spelling and grammar and am smarter than most
>> > >male brains and most female brains combined. I work 4X better than you Carl
>> > >Fogel
>> > >Too bad, you are plonked. DOA
>> >
>
>> > Dear Nash,
>> >
>> > Judging by your increasingly bizarre posts elsewhere, I suppose that
>> > your "brain sex study" was on some television show ten years ago.
>> >
>> > Possibly "The Simpsons"?
>>
>
>
>I already sent this in but please tell everyone how you do. If you can
>be honest that is.
>
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml
>
>If I am bizarre it is from spending too much time on you self important
>people.

Dear Nash,

I'd be astonished if anyone in this thread would do as poorly as
someone who's twice announced that he's plonked me, but still keeps
nattering at me.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
On Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:58:25 -0600, Tim McNamara <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Two orders of magnitude, really, to not be working with decrepit old
>> machines failing at random times.
>
>Oh, I dunno. I've got a Rev B iMac that is 8 years old and works very
>reliably, having served for years as a Web server and as a print server
>on my home LAN. It could easily be my only computer if I didn't need a
>laptop for work.

If you really know what you're doing, the occasional sturdy machine can
still be found.. but unless you buy it new, which is (like buying a new
car) a lot like lighting your cigarettes with $100 bills (only one or two
for a new computer, admittedly), you tend to end up with crappy castoffs.

Jasper
 
On 3 Dec 2006 23:31:59 -0800, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Her insurance is liable up to her the limits of her policy. After that,
>she's on her own. As for the possibility that she would subsequently
>not work and live on welfare to avoid paying any damages, that'd be
>rather like some criminals I've met that committed their crimes with
>the *intent* of getting arrested and going to prison. Sure, it can be
>done but its a tough way to make a living. Finally, no. At 19 she's an
>adult and her parents can't be held liable for any judgement against
>her. The same can't be said about any future husband she may have so it
>would seem that in the scenario you imagine- inadequate insurance
>coverage and a life on welfare- her driving would doom her to a life of
>unmarried poverty. Who says there is no justice?

She can't drink or vote at 19 and she still needs a parent's
permission to buy a firearm. I'm guessing that cars kill more
teenagers than are killed by guns.

I recall my prenuptial agreement stating that each party was
individually responsible for their own debts that were incurred
before the marriage. Nor could either party make a claim on the
other's assets held before the marriage. Asserts acquired after the
marriage were to be divided evenly. There were clauses stipulating
that both parties were responsible for any children's support and
education in amounts that reflected their individual ability to pay
should the marriage dissolve.

Prenuptial agreements are require under French law. We were married
in France.

Today's Bizzaro had justice nailed.
(Two guys standing in front of a vending machine dispensing
"Justice".)

First guy asks "How much does it cost?". The guy at the machine is
putting in money and answers something the effect, "It depends. You
just keep putting in money until you're broke and hope for the best."
--
zk
 
Zoot Katz wrote:
> On 3 Dec 2006 23:31:59 -0800, "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Her insurance is liable up to her the limits of her policy. After that,
> >she's on her own. As for the possibility that she would subsequently
> >not work and live on welfare to avoid paying any damages, that'd be
> >rather like some criminals I've met that committed their crimes with
> >the *intent* of getting arrested and going to prison. Sure, it can be
> >done but its a tough way to make a living. Finally, no. At 19 she's an
> >adult and her parents can't be held liable for any judgement against
> >her. The same can't be said about any future husband she may have so it
> >would seem that in the scenario you imagine- inadequate insurance
> >coverage and a life on welfare- her driving would doom her to a life of
> >unmarried poverty. Who says there is no justice?
>
> She can't drink or vote at 19 and she still needs a parent's
> permission to buy a firearm. I'm guessing that cars kill more
> teenagers than are killed by guns....

Trust me, plenty of 19-year olds drink in bars in Champaign-Urbana.
Walking down Green Street from 4th to Wright on a Saturday or Sunday
morning is an unpleasant experience due to all the excess alcohol
consumption induced vomit on the sidewalks and in the garbage cans.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!
 
Don Klipstein wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Rich Clark wrote:
> >
> >"Don Klipstein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >
> >> Philadelphia has bike lanes on many of their streets, and the bike lanes
> >> are in the streets.
> >
> >Yes, and a huge number of them are in the door zone. They are worse than
> >useless; they make cycling more dangerous because drivers feel free to
> >squeeze you from the left while parked drivers feel free to emerge from
> >their cars without looking because they don't think there will be any cars
> >near them.
>
> In my experience with Philly's bike lanes, doors do not swing over the
> whole bike lane. The bike lane is wide enough to squeeze by people
> exiting cars.
>
> Of course, a good loud horn helps!
>

Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if you fit one of those freight train
air horns to your bike? :)
 
On 4 Dec 2006 21:49:23 -0800, "zeez" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Of course, a good loud horn helps!
>>
>
> Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if you fit one of those freight train
>air horns to your bike? :)

An AirZound does an adequately comparable job at a fraction of the
weight and cost.

Pump up the plastic pop-bottle reservoir with your bicycle pump and
you get 115 attention grabbing decibels.

Mine has stopped a Jeep and a Lexus.
--
zk
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Rich Clark" <[email protected]> wrote:
> You go on to list problems common to urban cycling in any city. Philadelphia
> is no worse than most of the cities I've ridden in, and better than many.
> The solution is always the same: take the lane, hold your line, obey the
> rules, be predictable, ignore assholes. Assert your rights and be visible in
> doing so, and don't catch the drivers by surprise. They don't improvise
> well.

Pellucid, succinct, precise, and accurate.

--
Michael Press
 
Michael Press wrote:
>
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Rich Clark" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > You go on to list problems common to urban cycling in any city. Philadelphia
> > is no worse than most of the cities I've ridden in, and better than many.
> > The solution is always the same: take the lane, hold your line, obey the
> > rules, be predictable, ignore assholes. Assert your rights and be visible in
> > doing so, and don't catch the drivers by surprise. They don't improvise
> > well.
>
> Pellucid, succinct, precise, and accurate.

And sometimes fatal.

Notan
 
On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 06:29:53 -0700, Notan <[email protected]>
wrote:
: Michael Press wrote:
: >
: > In article
: > <[email protected]>,
: > "Rich Clark" <[email protected]> wrote:
: > > You go on to list problems common to urban cycling in any city. Philadelphia
: > > is no worse than most of the cities I've ridden in, and better than many.
: > > The solution is always the same: take the lane, hold your line, obey the
: > > rules, be predictable, ignore assholes. Assert your rights and be visible in
: > > doing so, and don't catch the drivers by surprise. They don't improvise
: > > well.
: >
: > Pellucid, succinct, precise, and accurate.
:
: And sometimes fatal.

Yes, possibly. Bad things sometimes happen, and riding a bicycle isn't the
safest of activities. But how would you improve on Rich's advice?

Bob
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Y
Update re Bicyclist was killed by woman driver downloading cell phone ring tones
Replies
5
Views
416
Road Cycling
Don Klipstein
D
S
SUV Killed By Bicyclist
Replies
7
Views
497
Road Cycling
Fritz M
F
B
Bicyclist killed by SUV
Replies
59
Views
1K
Road Cycling
VBadJuJu
V
M
Re: Bicyclist killed in Iowa
Replies
1
Views
332
Road Cycling
Tom Keats
T
A
Re: Bicyclist killed in South Carolina #1
Replies
2
Views
419
Road Cycling
Gary Smiley
G
Top Bottom Back