Bicyclist killed by SUV



Bill Sornson wrote:

> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>> Tom Keats wrote:

>
>>> And if the penalty for not respecting a 36-inch passing
>>> clearance is small, or if the law is unenforcable (or
>>> perhaps worse: unknown), what's the use?

>>
>> People with defeatist attitudes like yours deserve to be run over.

>
> Coffee bitter this morning, Matt?


No, I'm just tired of shoegazers.

Matt O.
 
"Matt O'Toole" wrote:
> Art Harris wrote:
>> Hold on! Many teens (including a couple of my own) are very
>> responsible drivers. Perhaps there should be a limit to how many
>> teens can be in a car, and of course the penalties for violations
>> should be stiff. But no blanket ban on teen drivers, especially those
>> that need to drive to get to work or school.

>
> How did they get to school before they turned 16 and got a drivers'
> license?


In high school, they took the school bus or walked. No school buses for
college.

> I agree that teens shouldn't be driving. Cars are an expensive and
> dangerous
> waste of time and money for kids.


Did you drive as a teen? I sure did and didn't have any problems. What would
you set the driving age at? 20? 21? Get real!

Art Harris
 
Matt O'Toole wrote:
> Arthur Harris wrote:
>
> > "psycholist" wrote:
> >
> >> For the life of me, I can't understand why we let teenagers drive

AT
> >> ALL.

> >
> > Hold on! Many teens (including a couple of my own) are very
> > responsible drivers. Perhaps there should be a limit to how many
> > teens can be in a car, and of course the penalties for violations
> > should be stiff. But no blanket ban on teen drivers, especially

those
> > that need to drive to get to work or school.

>
> How did they get to school before they turned 16 and got a drivers'

license?
> And about work -- after figuring in the cost of the car, are they

really making
> any money? Companies like Dominoes Pizza are heavily subsidized by

parents of
> these kids.
>
> I agree that teens shouldn't be driving. Cars are an expensive and

dangerous
> waste of time and money for kids.
>
> Matt O.


My son has been delivering pizza through college and making good money
doing it. I pay tuition, delivering gives him all his spending money. I
live in a town that would never except chain store pizzeria's...so each
is privately owned. I don't understand your logic about teenagers. Do
you have any? Are they all cloned to be bad drivers and irresponsible?
Lets lump all senior citizens into a group too and take away their
licenses once they pass a certain age. Even if they are healthy,
competent and strong. You know how those old people are. I really
don't get your point about teens and driving. There are good drivers
and bad drivers and they come in all ages. Just like cyclists...good
and reckless...in all ages.
Maggie.
 
On 28 Jan 2005 09:31:22 -0800, "Maggie" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Matt O'Toole wrote:
>> Arthur Harris wrote:
>>
>> > "psycholist" wrote:


>> > that need to drive to get to work or school.

>>


>
>My son has been delivering pizza through college and making good money
>doing it. I pay tuition, delivering gives him all his spending money. I
>live in a town that would never except chain store pizzeria's...so each
>is privately owned. I don't understand your logic about teenagers. Do
>you have any? Are they all cloned to be bad drivers and irresponsible?
>Lets lump all senior citizens into a group too and take away their
>licenses once they pass a certain age. Even if they are healthy,
>competent and strong. You know how those old people are. I really
>don't get your point about teens and driving. There are good drivers
>and bad drivers and they come in all ages. Just like cyclists...good
>and reckless...in all ages.
>Maggie.



The bottom line on driving age is that anyone learning to drive is
likely to have an accident or two until they simply get better though
experience. I don't really think that age has much to do with it.

When I first drove solo, I think it was actually the very first time,
I drove to the neighborhood supermarket. While stopped and waiting for
someone to pull out of a spot, someone else backed right into me. I
wasn't moving and had been waiting for at least ten seconds.

Another time, still faily inexperienced, I was driving on a highway in
the right lane at around the speed limit. There were several cars
backed up onto an exit ramp. One decides not to wait anymore and pulls
out into my lane. Unfortunately I was passing by at the time. He was a
kid I knew from high school.

**** happens.
 
Having both ridden and driven the road where this accident took place,
I can say that it's a reasonably good road, and the visibility is good as
well. The road is winding and forested in a narrow canyon further down,
but it's more of a meadow in this area. I don't know that the driver was
using a cell phone. She could just as easily have been distracted by the
radio, a cup of coffee, etc.
No idea how traffic was at the time of this accident, but there would
have been plenty of room for a patient, attentive driver to pass.
If I remember right, the speed limit on this road is 35 mph. But
people routinely ignore it. That's especially easy to do down-bound,
though this accident happened in the upward lane.
"Didn't see her" is just about the lamest excuse I've ever heard. As a
driver, it's your JOB to see the road, the hazards, the traffic,
EVERYTHING. If you can't see, get off the road. Gad, I'd love to be on
the jury for this case!

> I know this might start a riot but we have laws in our town regarding
> talking on cell phones while driving. And they are strictly enforced.
> The police are relentless. They look for people on cell phones and the
> fines are high. Its the same in many towns around my area.


Having nearly been hit many times by yakaholics, I applaud your town.

> As for allowing teenagers to drive, I sometimes think the same about
> having teens on bikes. My friend was driving and some kid decided to do

<snip>
> I think both sides of this issue should be discussed instead of placing
> all the blame on motorists. Drivers have to be educated and cyclists
> must be educated. This is not an issue that is new nor is it one
> sided. I know this is a cycling thread, but I really do think,
> "bicyclists can sometimes be at fault." Especially teenagers on bikes.


The only time I've ever been involved in a car vs. bike collision I was
driving the car. I was moving maybe 2 mph in the entry to an apartment
complex, when a kid on a bike hit me in the left-rear fender. He rolled
over my trunk, got up, grabbed his bike, and took off. Yes, the fault can
be the cyclist's.
But not in the Solitude accident. Driver, unquestionably.

Bill

--------------------------------------------------
| You can fool some of the people all of the time, |
| and those are the ones you have to focus on. |
| -- George W. Bush |
--------------------------------------------------
 
[email protected] (Dennis P. Harris) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 22:37:10 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc, Ben
> Kaufman <[email protected]> wrote:
> yeah, that's what they always say. i've had folks pull
> alongside, look directly at me, and then do right turn in front
> of me and tell me that they didn't see me.
>

That is the only answer. Don't allow the "I didn't see him defence" but
charge all drivers who hit either a ped or a cyclist with assault with
a deadly weapon or like charges and the message would get through real
quick.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> "Didn't see her" is just about the lamest excuse I've ever heard.


I just heard it this morning. Someone swung out his truck door -- good thing
I was out far enough that I didn't get hit. My husband was riding with me,
and commented, "yeah, something about the hi-vis yellow jacket and the
hazard orange reflective vest that just makes you blend in with the
scenery."


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/

I'm doing the Big Climb for my friend Dena! See:
http://www.active.com/donations/campaign_public.cfm?key=cpetersky
 
Matt O'Toole wrote:

> I agree that teens shouldn't be driving. Cars are an expensive and

dangerous
> waste of time and money for kids.


That's as offensive a stupid generalization as a statement that starts
"Bicyclists are..."

When my son graduated from high school he decided to spend a couple of
years doing volunteer work in rural North Carolina, where driving the
charity's van was a critical necessity. Are you suggesting that this
responsible 18-year old who had never had a ticket or a hint of an
accident (and who's also an avid cyclist) should never have been given
a driver's license?

On the other hand, I was 25 when I got my first license, and in
retrospect it's half a miracle that I never hurt anybody while I was
still learning. New drivers are dangerous whatever their age.

I understand the cyclist's dread of teenaged drivers, and I share it.
The Friday commute home in warm weather is the only one I really worry
about, and it's because of the number of suburban high school drivers
on the road then. But the answer is better testing, better education,
better law enforcement, and better parenting.

RichC
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> But the answer is better testing, better education,
> better law enforcement, and better parenting.


A few years of riding a bike on the street before getting probably wouldn't
hurt, either. Maybe that's covered under "better parenting"?


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/

I'm doing the Big Climb for my friend Dena! See:
http://www.active.com/donations/campaign_public.cfm?key=cpetersky
 
"Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > But the answer is better testing, better education,
> > better law enforcement, and better parenting.

>
> A few years of riding a bike on the street before getting probably wouldn't
> hurt, either.


I think a cross town trip on a bike should be required to get a driver's license.
Unable to balance? Ride a trike. Unable to pedal? A motorized trike.

Everybody should be out there, exposed to hazardous traffic, before they get
a chance to become such traffic.
 
"Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> A few years of riding a bike on the street before getting probably
> wouldn't
> hurt, either. Maybe that's covered under "better parenting"?
>

I honestly believe that being a cyclist has made me a better driver - I am
extremely aware of road users more vulnerable than I when I'm driving.
Example - weather in my part of the world today - heavy rain - rural roads
awash with run-off from the adjacent fields. So I drove Nathan to college
this morning, rather than have him cycle there. On the way there, on a
particularly winding, uphill, narrow & wet part of the road there was a
cyclist in front of me. It was not safe to overtake, so I held back, giving
him space so he didn't feel hassled by the car behind him - with me driving
it. Three cars came up behind me and were less than pleased that I was not
overtaking a mere cyclist on a narrow, winding, wet and muddy road. I waited
until it was safe to overtake - on a wider, straighter stretch of road
before I overtook the cyclist. All the while I held back, for my own safety
and that of the cyclist (I really did not want to meet a truck head-on on a
bend...) I had the car behind me flashing headlights & beeping his horn.
Pr*t :-(

Cheers, helen s
 
David wrote:

> I think a cross town trip on a bike should be required to get a
> driver's license.
> Unable to balance? Ride a trike. Unable to pedal? A motorized trike.
>
> Everybody should be out there, exposed to hazardous traffic, before
> they get
> a chance to become such traffic.


Wait a minute. Hold it right there.

That's starting to sound an awful lot like empathy.

Sounds like a pretty slippery slope to me. I mean, that could lead to less
crime, the end of war, reduction in exploitation of workers, etc.

I, for one, wouldn't want to live in /that/ kind of world..... ;-)
 
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:00:15 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:

> Having both ridden and driven the road where this accident took place,
>I can say that it's a reasonably good road, and the visibility is good as
>well. The road is winding and forested in a narrow canyon further down,
>but it's more of a meadow in this area. I don't know that the driver was
>using a cell phone. She could just as easily have been distracted by the
>radio, a cup of coffee, etc.
> No idea how traffic was at the time of this accident, but there would
>have been plenty of room for a patient, attentive driver to pass.
> If I remember right, the speed limit on this road is 35 mph. But
>people routinely ignore it. That's especially easy to do down-bound,
>though this accident happened in the upward lane.
> "Didn't see her" is just about the lamest excuse I've ever heard. As a
>driver, it's your JOB to see the road, the hazards, the traffic,
>EVERYTHING. If you can't see, get off the road. Gad, I'd love to be on
>the jury for this case!
>
>> I know this might start a riot but we have laws in our town regarding
>> talking on cell phones while driving. And they are strictly enforced.
>> The police are relentless. They look for people on cell phones and the
>> fines are high. Its the same in many towns around my area.

>
> Having nearly been hit many times by yakaholics, I applaud your town.
>
>> As for allowing teenagers to drive, I sometimes think the same about
>> having teens on bikes. My friend was driving and some kid decided to do

><snip>
>> I think both sides of this issue should be discussed instead of placing
>> all the blame on motorists. Drivers have to be educated and cyclists
>> must be educated. This is not an issue that is new nor is it one
>> sided. I know this is a cycling thread, but I really do think,
>> "bicyclists can sometimes be at fault." Especially teenagers on bikes.

>
> The only time I've ever been involved in a car vs. bike collision I was
>driving the car. I was moving maybe 2 mph in the entry to an apartment
>complex, when a kid on a bike hit me in the left-rear fender. He rolled
>over my trunk, got up, grabbed his bike, and took off. Yes, the fault can
>be the cyclist's.
> But not in the Solitude accident. Driver, unquestionably.
>
>Bill
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>| You can fool some of the people all of the time, |
>| and those are the ones you have to focus on. |
>| -- George W. Bush |
> --------------------------------------------------



Being cyclists we are on "the other side of that fence." Although I like to
think of myself as always having been a safe car driver I have to admit that
being on the road bike for the last few years has opened my eyes a little wider.

Ben
 
Maggie wrote:

> My son has been delivering pizza through college and making good

money
> doing it. I pay tuition, delivering gives him all his spending money.

I
> live in a town that would never except chain store pizzeria's...so

each
> is privately owned. I don't understand your logic about teenagers. Do
> you have any? Are they all cloned to be bad drivers and

irresponsible?
> Lets lump all senior citizens into a group too and take away their
> licenses once they pass a certain age. Even if they are healthy,
> competent and strong. You know how those old people are. I really
> don't get your point about teens and driving. There are good drivers
> and bad drivers and they come in all ages. Just like cyclists...good
> and reckless...in all ages.
> Maggie.


Maggie,

I'm sure you are a really nice person, but you have a nasty habit of
speaking out before you check your facts. Take a look at this article:

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/RNotes/1998/AgeSex96.pdf

>From the data, you will note that the rate of motor vehicle crashes

(MVCs) drops drastically as young drivers gain experience. You will
also note that the MVC rate for male drivers is higher than the MVC
rate for female drivers.

Here are a couple of quotes from the article:

[Crash Involvement Rates] "When based on the number of licensed
drivers, the risk of being involved in a crash drops sharply from a
rate of about 265 crash involvements per 1,000 licensed drivers in the
16 and under age group to a rate of less than 40 for drivers above the
age of 60. The rates are about 52% higher for male drivers than for
female drivers, and this is true for most age groups. (Figure 1) The
risk pattern is quite different when the rate is based on estimated
annual travel. The risk is lowest for for drivers 40 to 65 years old,
while teenagers display much higher rates, about five times as great.
The risk for 16 yera old and younger drivers is about 10 times as high
as the lowest rate. The risk increases for drivers 65 years and older,
with drivers 85 and older having a rate 2.5 times as high as the
average driver. Male and female drivers display the same rate for most
age groups. (Figure 2)"

[Driver Fatality Rates] "When the driver fatality rate is calculated
based on the estimated annual travel, the highest rates are found among
the youngest and oldest drivers. When compared to the fatality rate for
drivers 25 to 70 years old, teenage drivers display a rate about four
times as great, while the rate for drivers in the oldest group display
a rate 9 times as great. Female drivers under 50 display a lower rate
than their male counterparts, on a per mile driven basis, while the
rate is essentially the same for both male and female drivers over 50
years of age, with the exception of the oldest group. (Figure 4)"


Now, Maggie, are you ready to defend your position? Can you
realistically say that there are no differences in driving ability
based on age?

-Buck
 
Buck wrote:>

Maggie,

I'm sure you are a really nice person, but you have a nasty habit of
speaking out before you check your facts.
Me Nasty? NE-VA'BABY!!! ;-)

Maggie
 
"Buck" wrote:
> Maggie wrote:
>> I don't understand your logic about teenagers. Do
>> you have any? Are they all cloned to be bad drivers and

> irresponsible?
>> Lets lump all senior citizens into a group too and take away their
>> licenses once they pass a certain age. Even if they are healthy,
>> competent and strong. You know how those old people are. I really
>> don't get your point about teens and driving. There are good drivers
>> and bad drivers and they come in all ages. Just like cyclists...good
>> and reckless...in all ages.
>> Maggie.

>
> Maggie,
>
> I'm sure you are a really nice person, but you have a nasty habit of
> speaking out before you check your facts. Take a look at this article:
>
> http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/RNotes/1998/AgeSex96.pdf
>
>>From the data, you will note that the rate of motor vehicle crashes

> (MVCs) drops drastically as young drivers gain experience. You will
> also note that the MVC rate for male drivers is higher than the MVC
> rate for female drivers.


"From the data, you will note that the rate of motor vehicle crashes
(MVCs) drops drastically as young drivers gain experience"

So is it age or experience that is the critical factor? If the driving age
were raised to 20, it would still take folks a few years to gain experience
and hone their skills.

> Now, Maggie, are you ready to defend your position? Can you
> realistically say that there are no differences in driving ability
> based on age?


Where did she say that? She said "There are good drivers
and bad drivers and they come in all ages. Just like cyclists...good
and reckless...in all ages." Do you disagree with that statement?

If the data shows that young females have better driving records than young
males, should we have a higher driving age for males? Should old folks be
forced to turn in their licenses when they reach an age where statistically
they are a greater risk? Where does it end? I think what's needed is tougher
licensing standards and tougher enforcement for all ages.

A big thing on the road test in my state is being able to parallel park
without hitting the curb. What's that got to do with safe driving?

Art Harris
 
Claire Petersky wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > But the answer is better testing, better education,
> > better law enforcement, and better parenting.

>
> A few years of riding a bike on the street before getting probably

wouldn't
> hurt, either. Maybe that's covered under "better parenting"?


I'm for that. My son certainly benefitted -- hugely -- from having been
trained as a vehicular cyclist before we ever started teaching him to
drive. He's a better driver than I am, and a better driver (from all I
can discern) than most of the yahoos on the road.

Not letting him have a license just because of his age would have been
a real injustice.

RichC
 
Buck wrote:
> "From the data, you will note that the rate of motor vehicle crashes
> (MVCs) drops drastically as young drivers gain experience"


Arthur Harris wrote:
> So is it age or experience that is the critical factor? If the

driving age
> were raised to 20, it would still take folks a few years to gain

experience
> and hone their skills.


Good question. It is likely a combination of both.

Teens are more likely than older drivers to underestimate the dangers
in hazardous situations, and they have less experience coping with such
situations (Jonah 1987).

Teens are more likely than older drivers to speed, run red lights, make
illegal turns, ride with an intoxicated driver, and drive after using
alcohol or drugs. (Jonah 1987).

Both of the above are from
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/teenmvh.htm

Driver Error
Compared with crashes of older drivers, those of 16 year-olds more
often involve driver error.

Speeding
Excessive speed is a factor in higher crash rates among 16-year-old
drivers.


Single-vehicle crashes
More fatal crashes of 16-year-old drivers involve only the teen's
vehicle. Typically, these are high-speed crashes in which the driver
lost control.


Passengers
Fatal crashes among 16-year-olds are more likely to occur when other
teenagers are in the car. The risk increases with every additional
passenger.


Alcohol
Although this is a problem among drivers of all ages, it's actually
less of a problem for 16-year-olds. In 1998, 13 percent of fatally
injured drivers had positive blood alcohol concentrations (BAC). Only 8
percent had a BAC of 0.10 percent or greater.


Night driving
This is a high-risk activity for beginners. Per mile driven, the
nighttime fatal crash rate for 16-year-olds is about twice as high as
during the day.


Low seat belt use
Teenagers generally are less likely to use safety belts than adults.

All of the above are from
http://www.progressive.com/RC/DSafety/rc_teen_driving.asp

But are also found in a variety of other places on the web.


Buck wrote:
> > Now, Maggie, are you ready to defend your position? Can you
> > realistically say that there are no differences in driving ability
> > based on age?



Art wrote:
> Where did she say that? She said "There are good drivers
> and bad drivers and they come in all ages. Just like cyclists...good
> and reckless...in all ages." Do you disagree with that statement?


Her statemnt, put in context of the previous defense of her children,
is clearly an attempt to suggest that there is no difference in a
person's driving skills due to age.



>
> If the data shows that young females have better driving records than

young
> males, should we have a higher driving age for males? Should old

folks be
> forced to turn in their licenses when they reach an age where

statistically
> they are a greater risk? Where does it end? I think what's needed is

tougher
> licensing standards and tougher enforcement for all ages.



I agree with you that we need tougher standards and enforcement. I also
believe that we need a graduated licensing program. The behaviors of
teenage children are very different from the behaviors of young adults.
It is these behaviors, combined with a lack of driving experience that
increases the risks.

Since you seem to believe driving skill is better related to driving
experience and not age, please tell us whom you would hand your keys
to: the 16 year old with 6 months driving experience or the 25 year old
with one month driving experience?

I think it stands to reason that age plays a major role in driving
ability.

> A big thing on the road test in my state is being able to parallel

park
> without hitting the curb. What's that got to do with safe driving?


Clearly, it is a test of the driver's control of the vehicle and the
driver's awareness of the size of the vehicle. If the person can't park
without hitting the curb, how do we expect him/her to park without
hitting other cars? Wouldn't you also expect the driver to have a poor
awareness of where the right side of the vehicle is when driving down
the road?


-Buck
 
Buck wrote:

> Art wrote:
> > Where did she say that? She said "There are good drivers
> > and bad drivers and they come in all ages. Just like

cyclists...good
> > and reckless...in all ages." Do you disagree with that statement?


>Buck wrote:
> Her statemnt, put in context of the previous defense of her children,
> is clearly an attempt to suggest that there is no difference in a
> person's driving skills due to age.
>


I don't think I was defending my children, I was trying to make a
point. Maybe I used my children as an example. When someone makes a
blanket statement that teens should not be allowed to drive, it upsets
me. Teenagers are not all alike. I raised three kids and they are all
different in the way they handle responsibility. I have many nieces
and nephews and there have been teenagers in and out of my home for
many, many years....They all have different levels of responsibility
and different attitudes about driving.

I lived through the "learning to drive" phase of their lives and I am
still hear to tell the story. In the past few years my father who is
80 has had three accidents, I (50) have had none, my husband (57) has
had one and my three kids in their 20's have not had any accidents. I
am more in fear of my fathers failing eyesight and slower reflexes than
I am of my kids behind the wheel. Before my father-in-law gave up his
license he had quite a few accidents. Yet my aunt is 85 years old and
still drives from Jersey to New Hampshire every summer. I still do not
believe age is a factor when it comes to bad drivers. I know a heck of
a lot of middle aged people who should be off the road. Between their
road rage, their impatience trying to get to work and their other mid
life neurotic behavior, who knows what they are thinking on the road.
Heck, you talk about cell phones. Ever watch a woman put her lip gloss
on while driving? Ever watch a parent with out of control kids in the
car screaming at them. Bad driving is bad driving. Experience, health,
temperment, responsibility are all factors.....your age is at the
bottom of the list if you ask me.
Maggie.
 
Dennis Harris wrote in part:

>yeah, that's what they always say. i've had folks pull
>alongside, look directly at me, and then do right turn in front
>of me and tell me that they didn't see me.


Just because a driver's head is pointed your
direction doesn't mean they driver sees you.
Rookie.