Bike chains



On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:56:01 -0700 (PDT), landotter
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Are there some fancy streamlined 8spd
>chains out there that I don't know about??

I recall that the PC48 came with a removable link but my recollections
are not great.
 
On 3/26/2008 5:15 PM Jay Beattie wrote:

> On Mar 26, 12:56 pm, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 3/26/2008 12:27 PM A Muzi wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> JCrowe <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> I suppose I should just shorten the second chain to
>>>>>> length and use both removable links or would pressing
>>>>>> them together do the trick?
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> Pressing together, as in joining the two chains with a chain tool?
>>>>> That's officially a no-no with modern multi-speed chains (the pins are
>>>>> peened, so they flare at the ends, so when you drive them through with
>>>>> the chain tool, they enlarge the holes in the side plates, and then
>>>>> those side plates won't fit tightly on reassembly).
>>> Mike Elliott wrote:
>>>> Wait -- modern chains should not be taken apart with a chain tool? I did
>>>> not know that! That's how I remove mine to clean. So . . . what's the
>>>> more correct procedure?
>>> Sevens go both ways but 8-9-10 chain have thinner links with tighter
>>> rivets and they set flush. Quite difficult to do well when it is
>>> possible at all. The downside risk is a rider injury. Use a snap link!
>> Well I'll be hornswoggled. I've been doing my 9's the Old School way all
>> along! Nobody ever tells me anything.
>>
>> I reckon I better get some snap links. I wonder if my Performance LBS
>> stocks them. I guess I need new chains, too. Dang.
>
> Do what Muzi says, but I still use a chain tool on my SRAM 9sp chains
> -- at least some of them. I have never had a problem. I have had
> more problems with the super-duper links not-so-quick links than my
> regular links. -- Jay Beattie.

Right on, Jay, I've been taking my 9spd chains apart for years with no
problems whatsoever. That said, the image of a chain parting while
climbing a hill or pulling away from a stop is sufficiently worrying that
I think I'll try to avoid that possibility, no matter how far removed the
chance or lucky I have been so far. I'll see how them snaplinx work for me.

And Michael Press, thanks for the tip about the usefulness of the on-bike
chain cleaners. There has indeed been much written on this group about
effective ways to clean chains and I'll continue to do as I have: remove
it and clean it in solvent. It's worked well for me. I might try using one
of those can-within-a-can automobile parts cleaners, though.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:20:49 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>For 9-speeds, same thing, except that
>there's no wear or failure issue with the SRAM chains (although I don't find
>they shift as well up front as the other chains).
>
>--Mike Jacoubowsky
>Chain Reaction Bicycles
>www.ChainReaction.com
>Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Links with 'bellies' work better on front chainrings without shift
assists or the SG variety of assist. I'm sure someone has still sells
flat rings but they are rare.

Suntour actually made a chain where the links were flat on one side
and bowed on the other.
 
On 3/26/2008 5:30 PM Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:20:27 -0700, Mike Elliott <[email protected]>
> wrote:

>> Wait -- modern chains should not be taken apart with a chain tool? I did
>> not know that! That's how I remove mine to clean. So . . . what's the
>> more correct procedure?
>
> Don't know if that's a typo.... You do use a chain tool to take it apart, you
> aren't supposed to use one to put it back together.

It wasn't a typo so much as an incompletion. I use a chain tool for
removal and re-installation. Or have done so until now. I have
reconsidered this now that the error of my ways has been pointed out.

> A lot of mixed experience on this. I re-riveted a Shimano 8s chain (instead of
> using the magic pin) and got about 200 miles before it took the der hanger off
> my mountain bike. Others seem to have no problem.

Like me, on many bikes. So far.

> Mostly I use the Sram links - cheap, easy and reliable.*
>
> Ron
> [*] Just how I like my women

That's just common sense. Who'd want a costly, difficult, or unreliable one?

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
 
On Mar 26, 7:39 pm, Paul Kopit <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:56:01 -0700 (PDT), landotter
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Are there some fancy streamlined 8spd
> >chains out there that I don't know about??
>
> I recall that the PC48 came with a removable link but my recollections
> are not great.

You recall correctly--but so do pretty much all chains, even those
that are easily broken with a traditional chain tool.
 
Paul Kopit wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:11:17 -0500, JCrowe <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Serendipitous posting. I am currently refurbing my tandem and I have
>> to link two chains together for the length between the captain and
>> stoker cranks. I bought two SRAM chains which come with two removable
>> lengths. I suppose I should just shorten the second chain to length and
>> use both removable links or would pressing them together do the trick?
>
> You can use the 2 links for the 1½ chains you are going to use. If
> the timing chain is tensioned properly, you won't be able to get the
> link to come apart. On my timing chain, I usually put a rag on the
> chainrings and force the chain off the ring. I never rejoin chains by
> reinserting pushed links.

Thanks again for the input. I still have chains on my bikes that are
pretty old. The newest bike is a 1990 Burley tandem. I think my old
80s vintage Rohloff chain is about done for so I'll use SRAMs on the
various bikes with the removable links.
 
Dieter Britz wrote:

> I have just put a new chain on my bike, the old one starting to get
> a bit noisy (stretched). I once read here that chains stretch because
> grit grinds away at the bearings, so I assumed that it didn't matter
> much how much I pay for a chain. The bike shop tells me, however, that
> there are various qualities of chain.
>
> Does it pay to pay more for a chain, and if so, why?

Thank you all for the answers. I will continue to buy next-to-cheapest
chains, as advised. Here in DK we use bikes every day, to get to work
and back home, and a lot of bikes, like mine, have hub gears rather than
derailleurs. I myself have a single-gear Torpedo hub with back-pedal
brake, a great hub, probably about 60 years old, indestructible. So I
need to cut off a definite length of chain, and I hope I never buy one
of those fancy types you mention with peened pins, that you should not
break and reassemble. Actually I doubt that these are sold here.

Someone wrote "when I was waxing chains..." - why did you stop? I do
that, and the wax lasts longer than oil and, it seems to me, repels
water better (it rains a lot here).
--
Dieter Britz (britz<at>chem.au.dk)
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 21:38:40 +0100, Andrew Price wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:19:24 -0400, Matt O'Toole
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>In my experience, the expensive ones don't last any longer than the cheap
>>ones.
>>
>>I used to wear out chains in 2-3 months of mountain biking. Always
>>looking for more chain life per dollar I tried all levels of quality, and
>>found there's no difference. A decade of this is a pretty good sample.
>
> That may be true for mountain bikes, but it isn't for road bikes, in my
> experience. Campagnolo 10-speed chains are expensive, but they last
> considerably longer than their KMC equivalents.

Mountain bike chains just get dirtier faster -- a sped-up duty cycle from
which to gather data. Come back to us when you've worn out 40-50 chains
of several types, under the same riding conditions.

There are not too many road riders who go through more than a chain a
year, and 10 speed drivetrains haven't been around for too many years.

Matt O.
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:20:49 +0000, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> "Dieter Britz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I have just put a new chain on my bike, the old one starting to get
>> a bit noisy (stretched). I once read here that chains stretch because
>> grit grinds away at the bearings, so I assumed that it didn't matter
>> much how much I pay for a chain. The bike shop tells me, however, that
>> there are various qualities of chain.
>>
>> Does it pay to pay more for a chain, and if so, why? --
>> Dieter Britz (oldnob<at>yahoo.dk)
>
> The best ways to make a chain last longer are-
>
> #1: Become a lightweight. Somebody 180lbs wears out chains much faster
> than someone 120lbs. Dramatic difference.
>
> #2: Become a clean freak. A spotless chain lasts much longer than one
> that's dirty. Unfortunately, this often means spending as much time
> cleaning your bike as riding it.
>
> #3: Avoid hills.
>
> #4: Don't buy the cheapest chain available. Usually the chain one-up from
> the bottom works almost as well as the most-expensive chains. But the very
> cheapest tend to be pretty bad.

I have yet to see a bad 9 or 10 speed chain. Go cheap! There may be some
older 7 and 8 speed chains still lying around that are terrible though.

> If you've got a 10-speed drivetrain, the KMC & Shimano chains work very
> nicely. I'm not a fan of the SRAM. Noisy, seems to wear more quickly,
> and break more often than I'd like. For 9-speeds, same thing, except
> that there's no wear or failure issue with the SRAM chains (although I
> don't find they shift as well up front as the other chains).

I agree about the KMC chains vs. SRAM -- KMC do run quieter and shift
smoother. Not to mention they're a lot cheaper if you shop wisely.

Shimano chains are fine but don't come with a master link. So forget
that. However KMC sells a good master link for Shimano chains for about
$2.50.

Matt O.
 
On Mar 26, 8:53 pm, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/26/2008 5:30 PM Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:20:27 -0700, Mike Elliott <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> Wait -- modern chains should not be taken apart with a chain tool? I did
> >> not know that! That's how I remove mine to clean. So . . . what's the
> >> more correct procedure?
>
> > Don't know if that's a typo.... You do use a chain tool to take it apart, you
> > aren't supposed to use one to put it back together.
>
> It wasn't a typo so much as an incompletion. I use a chain tool for
> removal and re-installation. Or have done so until now. I have
> reconsidered this now that the error of my ways has been pointed out.
>
> > A lot of mixed experience on this. I re-riveted a Shimano 8s chain (instead of
> > using the magic pin) and got about 200 miles before it took the der hanger off
> > my mountain bike. Others seem to have no problem.
>
> Like me, on many bikes. So far.
>
> > Mostly I use the Sram links - cheap, easy and reliable.*
>
> > Ron
> > [*] Just how I like my women
>
> That's just common sense. Who'd want a costly, difficult, or unreliable one?
>
> --
> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"

does she own a 500SL ?
 
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 17:12:53 -0700, Michael Press <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The on-bike chain cleaning tools are very little help.

Sheldon didn't share that view:

<http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html#cleaning>

"The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the cleaning machine
flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing action may do a
better job of cleaning the innards."
 
Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:

>> The on-bike chain cleaning tools are very little help.

> Sheldon didn't share that view:

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html#cleaning

> "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the cleaning machine
> flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing action may do
> a better job of cleaning the innards."

I've tested that "may do a better job" by cleaning such a "cleaned"
chain in a clean bowl of paint thinner to produce a dirty grey slurry
from which gritty sediment settled in a short time.

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8d.2.html

Jobst Brandt
 
On 3/27/2008 12:40 PM [email protected] wrote:

> Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> The on-bike chain cleaning tools are very little help.
>
>> Sheldon didn't share that view:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html#cleaning
>
>> "The on-the-bike system has the advantage that the cleaning machine
>> flexes the links and spins the rollers. This scrubbing action may do
>> a better job of cleaning the innards."
>
> I've tested that "may do a better job" by cleaning such a "cleaned"
> chain in a clean bowl of paint thinner to produce a dirty grey slurry
> from which gritty sediment settled in a short time.
>
> http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8d.2.html
>

Well, that pretty much settles it for me, too.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
 
> Mike, what do you have to say about the venerable PC-48, PC-58, and
> PC-68 SRAM chains? I have been pretty happy with SRAM PC-68's.
>
> - Don Gillies

Don: Good chains that last well but don't shift as well up-front as the
Shimano. We have fixed many a front-shifting problem by replacing a PC-48
with a Shimano chain (any HG variety). We have had customers fight us over
this, insisting that their PC-whatever chain is not causing the front
shifting to be not as they'd like... and accuse us of doing something else
to magically bring their shifting performance back up (after we replaced the
chain and all was well).

Some people are far less picky about front shifting than others. Examples
are those who say they have no problem using non-standard chainrings and
size combinations with STI shifters.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Donald Gillies" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>If you've got a 10-speed drivetrain, the KMC & Shimano chains work very
>>nicely. I'm not a fan of the SRAM. Noisy, seems to wear more quickly, and
>>break more often than I'd like. For 9-speeds, same thing, except that
>>there's no wear or failure issue with the SRAM chains (although I don't
>>find
>>they shift as well up front as the other chains).
>
> Mike, what do you have to say about the venerable PC-48, PC-58, and
> PC-68 SRAM chains? I have been pretty happy with SRAM PC-68's.
>
> - Don Gillies
> San Diego, CA, USA
 
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:

> What would a costly,
> difficult, unreliable woman drive?

My ex-wife's car.
 
Andrew Price <[email protected]> writes:

>On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 17:12:53 -0700, Michael Press <[email protected]>
>wrote:

>>The on-bike chain cleaning tools are very little help.

I disagree, I think a lot depends upon how frequently you clean your
own chain - and how many bikes you ride!!

I bought a used tandem recently that had been stored outside for 5+
years. The chain had been greased and the grease had dried
completely, making a 'wipe down' completely ineffective. I considered
buying 2 new chains for the bike. Then, I remembered that for
Christmas i had bought myself a chain cleaner 'just to try it out'.

7 minutes after opening the package, both chains on the bike were
totally clean, and i added some motorcycle chain oil to the newly
cleaned chains. Since I wanted and did ride the bike 2 minutes later,
there was really nothing better for my purposes, on that day, than the
PARK chain cleaner (and cleaning fluid.)

I wouldn't mess around with a cheap imitation chain cleaner, as the
park has several brushes and bristles that go inside and between the
rollers of the chain. Moreover, the enclosed nature of a chain
cleaner keeps the VOCs out of your respiratory system.

oh yeah, and one more point. I read the FAQ where Jobst said that
chain cleaners are ineffective. Jobst is an idiot, sometimes.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
 
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:55:21 -0700 (PDT), datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mar 26, 8:53 pm, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 3/26/2008 5:30 PM Hobbes@spnb&s.com wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:20:27 -0700, Mike Elliott <[email protected]>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Wait -- modern chains should not be taken apart with a chain tool? I did
>> >> not know that! That's how I remove mine to clean. So . . . what's the
>> >> more correct procedure?
>>
>> > Don't know if that's a typo.... You do use a chain tool to take it apart, you
>> > aren't supposed to use one to put it back together.
>>
>> It wasn't a typo so much as an incompletion. I use a chain tool for
>> removal and re-installation. Or have done so until now. I have
>> reconsidered this now that the error of my ways has been pointed out.
>>
>> > A lot of mixed experience on this. I re-riveted a Shimano 8s chain (instead of
>> > using the magic pin) and got about 200 miles before it took the der hanger off
>> > my mountain bike. Others seem to have no problem.
>>
>> Like me, on many bikes. So far.
>>
>> > Mostly I use the Sram links - cheap, easy and reliable.*
>>
>> > Ron
>> > [*] Just how I like my women
>>
>> That's just common sense. Who'd want a costly, difficult, or unreliable one?
>>
>> --
>> Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"
>
>does she own a 500SL ?

Is there a woman who owns one who bought it herself outside of the, uh,
industry?
 
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:46:29 -0700, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> Mike, what do you have to say about the venerable PC-48, PC-58, and
>> PC-68 SRAM chains? I have been pretty happy with SRAM PC-68's.
>>
>> - Don Gillies
>
>Don: Good chains that last well but don't shift as well up-front as the
>Shimano. We have fixed many a front-shifting problem by replacing a PC-48
>with a Shimano chain (any HG variety). We have had customers fight us over
>this, insisting that their PC-whatever chain is not causing the front
>shifting to be not as they'd like... and accuse us of doing something else
>to magically bring their shifting performance back up (after we replaced the
>chain and all was well).
>
>Some people are far less picky about front shifting than others. Examples
>are those who say they have no problem using non-standard chainrings and
>size combinations with STI shifters.

Probably people who learned to shift before the clicky shifter thing happened.

Ron
 
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