Figuring out 2x20 wattage
- Thread starter gregkeller
- Start date
With my new Powertap did my first set of 2 x 20 tonight.
1st effort 222 watts and 169 HR (1st 10min 233 watts 2nd 10min 214 watts)
2nd effort 218 watts and 166 HR (possibly cruised a bit in 2nd effort)
So much more fun analysing your own wattage data than other peoples.
Matches well with data from lab testing where my aerobic threshold was 170 watts and 142 Hr and anaerobic threshold was 215 watts and 162 HR in late November.
My take on intervals is that you do them because at some point in the racing you will need to start lifting the tempo to try and break the group up, get away solo with a reasonable distance to the finish, be part of a breakaway or stay in contention on long climbs. This is where threshold training is necessary.
My thoughts are if one can do 1 x 40 min at the same pace as 2 X 20 then you are not doing 2 X 20 hard enough. Same as I would expect some doing 4 X 10 to do them at a higher power output than 2 X 20.
On the track training 2000-4000m pursuit riders we use a mix of efforts...
3-5 X 3-5 min at around 90% pursuit pace
3-5 X 60 sec efforts at 100% pursuit pace
5-10 X 30 sec efforts at 110 % pursuit pace
When I say pursuit pace it is just an example. At the start of a training phase we do TTs and then spend the rest of the phase trying to improve on those times. I knew I had a dead cert for medals at Nationals because her pursuit pace from TTs was faster than the winning times from the last two years.
I judge an interval session on the last effort where you try and lift the tempo. I did this in the 2nd effort yet still did 217 watts for the first 10min and 216watts in the 2nd. The first 10min were into a strong headwind and the 2nd with a tailwind which may have affected things. I know I got the pace right if I can't lift the power any more.
I did the same thing with weight training. On the final set I knew I was using the correct weight if I couldn't do or maintain good form past the goal rep range. ie 3 sets of 10: if I died on the final set after 2-3 reps the weight was too high or if I did 12 or more reps the weight was too low. If I was doing 6 X 5 reps I would expect to be able to use a heavier weight.
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
1st effort 222 watts and 169 HR (1st 10min 233 watts 2nd 10min 214 watts)
2nd effort 218 watts and 166 HR (possibly cruised a bit in 2nd effort)
So much more fun analysing your own wattage data than other peoples.
Matches well with data from lab testing where my aerobic threshold was 170 watts and 142 Hr and anaerobic threshold was 215 watts and 162 HR in late November.
My take on intervals is that you do them because at some point in the racing you will need to start lifting the tempo to try and break the group up, get away solo with a reasonable distance to the finish, be part of a breakaway or stay in contention on long climbs. This is where threshold training is necessary.
My thoughts are if one can do 1 x 40 min at the same pace as 2 X 20 then you are not doing 2 X 20 hard enough. Same as I would expect some doing 4 X 10 to do them at a higher power output than 2 X 20.
On the track training 2000-4000m pursuit riders we use a mix of efforts...
3-5 X 3-5 min at around 90% pursuit pace
3-5 X 60 sec efforts at 100% pursuit pace
5-10 X 30 sec efforts at 110 % pursuit pace
When I say pursuit pace it is just an example. At the start of a training phase we do TTs and then spend the rest of the phase trying to improve on those times. I knew I had a dead cert for medals at Nationals because her pursuit pace from TTs was faster than the winning times from the last two years.
I judge an interval session on the last effort where you try and lift the tempo. I did this in the 2nd effort yet still did 217 watts for the first 10min and 216watts in the 2nd. The first 10min were into a strong headwind and the 2nd with a tailwind which may have affected things. I know I got the pace right if I can't lift the power any more.
I did the same thing with weight training. On the final set I knew I was using the correct weight if I couldn't do or maintain good form past the goal rep range. ie 3 sets of 10: if I died on the final set after 2-3 reps the weight was too high or if I did 12 or more reps the weight was too low. If I was doing 6 X 5 reps I would expect to be able to use a heavier weight.
Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach
Different take on the same data.
Welcome to the world of training with power.fergie said:
Probably did the first one at too high power.fergie said:
Typical rookie (to power training) mistake -- started too hard and couldn't sustain the pace.fergie said:
I do intervals because my body responds in a predictable manner to stress induced by riding at a given power for a given duration and builds more capacity, hence increasing my sustainable power. I then use that sustainable power for any ol' reason I want, including all that you mention.fergie said:
Even though I in fact do my 20m intervals at a slightly higher pace than my 40m intervals (and slightly lower than my 10m intervals), I disagree with your statement. I would think that if all three sets of intervals were done at a power level high enough to trigger the desired adaptation, the benefits would be equivalent. Your statement implies that intervals are done near one's max power for the duration, and I disagree.fergie said:
I disagree. I can raise the power at any time on every single interval I do, by ~10%. Again, you seem to be implying that the target pace is at or near one's max power for the (total interval) duration. I think that's too much power and for no incremental benefit.fergie said:
Or when you are a triathlete. 40k TT, plus 10k run. Roughly 90min, in a total duration of roughly 115 minutes (including the swim done at lower intensity)
A provincial champ that trained in our squad between '94 and '96, use to race @ 190 FC, which was over 90% HRM. With some piuking once in a while.
A provincial champ that trained in our squad between '94 and '96, use to race @ 190 FC, which was over 90% HRM. With some piuking once in a while.
I assume you were hoping for Andy's take on it, but personally I do it because 1) lower L4 is part of the 'Sweet Spot' so it makes up a decent part of my volume and 2) my power v. duration curve extends well beyond 2 hours within L4.whoawhoa said:
My approach is that L3/L4 is a continuous spectrum, so I try to match the intensity which I ride against the time I have available each sesson. Short = higher, long = lower.
well saidfrenchyge said:
that's pretty much what I've been doing this fall/early-winter - although I admit I've hardly gone over 0.95FT.A specific case for long lower L4 work would be long TT's like the UK blokes ride. A 50-miler (~2hrs) is a perfect example and even a 100 (~4hrs) could probably tickle lower L4. Or a half-IM 90k (2.25-2.5hrs) effort for the triathletes?
rmur
That is it guys, I think we finally agree.
Lower L4 is better trained with efforts of longer durations, higher L4 is better trained with efforts of shorter duration.
It is wrong to consider the whole L4 spectrum as being trained the same (2X20) way.
So I am telling gregkeller, of course you can do more than one L4 workout per week, especially if you are in a phase where you want to develop it. But it may be better to vary the effort duration, based on the specific area of L4 spectrum you want to train, instead of sticking to the same workout, over and over.
Lower L4 is better trained with efforts of longer durations, higher L4 is better trained with efforts of shorter duration.
It is wrong to consider the whole L4 spectrum as being trained the same (2X20) way.
So I am telling gregkeller, of course you can do more than one L4 workout per week, especially if you are in a phase where you want to develop it. But it may be better to vary the effort duration, based on the specific area of L4 spectrum you want to train, instead of sticking to the same workout, over and over.
SolarEnergy said:
From page 8 of the chapter that I wrote for USA Cycling several years ago (see http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/PowerTrainingChapter.pdf):
"...it is axiomatic that power during shorter training sessions or efforts will fall towards the higher end of a given range, whereas power during longer sessions or efforts will fall towards the lower end of a given range."
Thanks very much Andy, it is nice of you (even though I don't understand what axiomatic meansacoggan said:
...you doctors )I am filled with joy, when the basics get thoroughly debated. And that's exactly what happened in this thread. One can acheive great results just by understanding the most basic principles.
Axiomatic is a polite way of saying "obvious" for PhD's or those schooled in science-speakSolarEnergy said:Thanks very much Andy, it is nice of you (even though I don't understand what axiomatic means
I am filled with joy, when the basics get thoroughly debated. And that's exactly what happened in this thread. One can acheive great results just by understanding the most basic principles.
Question on durations
I have been doing 3x10min intervals at L4 for 4 weeks and want to know if I should through another one in (making it 4x10min) or should I do 2x20 which would also come to 40min total, I would have to back down about 5-10 watts though.
Which one is better for creating power for a length of time? My TT speed is pretty bad.
What is the differance between doing the two from a physiological stand point?
I have been doing 3x10min intervals at L4 for 4 weeks and want to know if I should through another one in (making it 4x10min) or should I do 2x20 which would also come to 40min total, I would have to back down about 5-10 watts though.
Which one is better for creating power for a length of time? My TT speed is pretty bad.
What is the differance between doing the two from a physiological stand point?
IMO, it depends. If you are doing the 10s with more than 1 or 2 minute rests, longer intervals will probably be far superior. If you are doing them with appropriate rest intervals for that duration (which should be short, since a "proper" l4 interval should be at least 15 minutes) then the difference will be negligible.jeff828 said:
What is the problem in your opinion. You start at a good speed, but are unable to maintain that speed, or do you lack speed/power right from the start?jeff828 said:
That is what we are trying to establish, through a couple of thread.jeff828 said:
But we all seem to agree on the fact that the lower the power (speed) is, the longer in duration intervals should be.
And I have stated, quite early in this thread, that if you are to do more than one L4 workout per week, you may consider varying a bit. For instance, you may keep going with 4X10 for one workout, 2X20 for an other, then 60-120 continuous (top L3, bottom L4).
Makes sense?
SolarEnergy said:What is the problem in your opinion. You start at a good speed, but are unable to maintain that speed, or do you lack speed/power right from the start?
QUOTE]
I dont have a problem with the starting out to fast, I am aware of that. On a relativley flat course, wind calm, my 10mile TT I can only average 21-22mph, probably about 230watts.
Pretty sad for a cat 3 especially from the numbers I have been reading on this site, guys just starting out & cat 5s doing 2x20 @ 300watts.
I have been able to move up based on tactically understanding & knowing where to be in the race if anyone is wondering. Its not all about just strength.
Now only if I had the motor also
Max Hr 210
Feel the lactate burn at HR 180-185
Seems like Im training at 87-90% of my max HR
I can hold 240watts for only 10min Hr at 175-182 Cadence around 80
can hold 270watts for only 4min Hr at 185-190 Cadence around 85
can hold 290watts for only 2min Hr at 190
Any advice how to up these watts and still stay aerobic or at threshold, isnt that what we really want.
Any Advice
Thanks
TTs are all about power and power management. Unlike, say, RRs, there's no drafting strategy or tactical positioning. It's about how much gas is in the tank and how well you manage the tank.jeff828 said:
This is often the case if your courses are fairly flat or if you have a high w/kg ratio relative to absolute power. Even if the guy on front is pulling at 300w, you can sit in at ~200w. And, if you have a good sprint (only loosely correlated with FT) you'll do well in races without a big climb.jeff828 said:I have been able to move up based on tactically understanding & knowing where to be in the race if anyone is wondering. Its not all about just strength. Now only if I had the motor also
About how many minutes per week are you riding at L4-L7 and what is the distribution of minutes by level?jeff828 said:
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