Grudge Match Series: Recumbent vs. Upright

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by B. Sanders, Apr 9, 2003.

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  1. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    I posted this topic on rec.bicycles.misc last night. This is in response to an ongoing flamewar
    between the DF and recumbent riders on rec.bicycles.misc.

    It's time to settle the score...

    National Recumbent vs. Upright Grudge Match Series

    Which is the fastest bike, recumbent or upright? All races will be oriented strictly toward that
    goal, and only that goal: pure speed, flat out. We could have a 10k time trial, a 100k race (yes,
    with hills) and a maximum speed event using radar. Maybe we could have an endurance race, too -
    say, 500k?

    We want to know which kind of bike is fastest. Many claims have been made. Let's settle it. You
    fellas ready to put your money where your mouth is? If the recumbents can use fairings and
    tailboxes, then the upright racers can, too. Seems fair to me. We could make it an annual event, to
    allow each faction to engineer a winning bike. Fair enough?

    When and where should we hold these events? Invitational or open?

    -Barry
     
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  2. Bentnut

    Bentnut Guest

    We already have this, more or less. The Battle Mountain World Speed Championships. DF's have not
    been competive since the 70's. Now if you make it an UN-FAIRED competition, it could interesting.

    "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I posted this topic on rec.bicycles.misc last night. This is in response
    to
    > an ongoing flamewar between the DF and recumbent riders on rec.bicycles.misc.
    >
    > It's time to settle the score...
    >
    > National Recumbent vs. Upright Grudge Match Series
    >
    > Which is the fastest bike, recumbent or upright? All races will be oriented strictly toward that
    > goal, and only that goal: pure speed, flat out. We could have a 10k time trial, a 100k race (yes,
    > with hills) and a maximum speed event using radar. Maybe we could have an endurance race, too -
    > say, 500k?
    >
    > We want to know which kind of bike is fastest. Many claims have been
    made.
    > Let's settle it. You fellas ready to put your money where your mouth is? If the recumbents can use
    > fairings and tailboxes, then the upright racers can, too. Seems fair to me. We could make it an
    > annual event, to allow
    each
    > faction to engineer a winning bike. Fair enough?
    >
    > When and where should we hold these events? Invitational or open?
    >
    > -Barry
     
  3. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "bentnut" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:ke%[email protected]...
    > We already have this, more or less. The Battle Mountain World Speed Championships. DF's have not
    > been competive since the 70's. Now if you
    make
    > it an UN-FAIRED competition, it could interesting.

    Right. I figured we ought to give the upright racers the opportunity to have fairings if they wish
    (so they won't cry foul); but if they want to race unfaired, that's fine too. Let's settle the score
    on who is fastest.

    Battle Mountain is an awesome display of speed; but we need some side-by-side competition between
    DF's and 'bents. What events do you guys think would be best? Where should we hold the events?

    -Barry
     
  4. "B. Sanders" skrev...
    > I posted this topic on rec.bicycles.misc last night. This is in response to an ongoing flamewar
    > between the DF and recumbent riders on rec.bicycles.misc.

    Sorry to be rude but who gives a rats arse? DF's are cool... I just don't ride em.

    M.
     
  5. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "B. Sanders" skrev...
    > > I posted this topic on rec.bicycles.misc last night. This is in response
    to
    > > an ongoing flamewar between the DF and recumbent riders on rec.bicycles.misc.
    >
    > Sorry to be rude but who gives a rats arse?

    You are informed and enlightened. There is a whole huge cycling establishment out there which needs
    demonstrations like this to inform them about which bikes are truly the fastest. Do we really know?
    Every day, in every bike shop, some salesperson says "this is the fastest bike in the shop." Is it a
    recumbent? Is it a DF? My bet is that 99.9% of the time, they're talking about an upright bike. They
    need to be informed.

    > DF's are cool... I just don't ride em.

    DF's are definitely cool. I have 7 of them, and I ride them a lot; but when I want to go really
    fast, I ride a recumbent. See? This is something you take for granted; but only a tiny fraction of
    the cycling population understands this concept (simple as it is). Speed is definitely a large
    factor in the purchase decisions of many cyclists. Such a public demonstration is never a bad thing,
    especially for recumbent enthusiasts, mfr's and retailers.

    -Barry
     
  6. "B. Sanders" skrev
    > You are informed and enlightened. There is a whole huge cycling establishment out there which
    > needs demonstrations like this to inform them about which bikes are truly the fastest. Do we
    > really know? Every day, in every bike shop, some salesperson says "this is the fastest bike in the
    > shop." Is it a recumbent? Is it a DF? My bet is that 99.9% of the time, they're talking about an
    > upright bike. They need to be informed.

    Why? I can still ride my recumbent despite all of this. They seem happy enough on their bikes and I
    was too for 28 years or so. And at any rate you have to experience the "conversion" yourself. Its
    one of those things you can't be told IMO.

    M.
     
  7. Paul Harris

    Paul Harris Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Mikael Seierup
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "B. Sanders" skrev
    > > You are informed and enlightened. There is a whole huge cycling establishment out there which
    > > needs demonstrations like this to inform them about which bikes are truly the fastest. Do we
    > > really know? Every day, in every bike shop, some salesperson says "this is the fastest bike in
    > > the shop." Is it a recumbent? Is it a DF? My bet is that 99.9% of the time, they're talking
    > > about an upright bike. They need to be informed.
    >
    > Why? I can still ride my recumbent despite all of this. They seem happy enough on their bikes and
    > I was too for 28 years or so. And at any rate you have to experience the "conversion" yourself.
    > Its one of those things you can't be told IMO.

    One reason I can think of, is that if salespeople are informed about recumbent performance, and
    eventually the general public picks up on this, an increase in sales of recumbent bicycles will
    result in higher production runs, and thus lower prices, for these bicycles. That has to be a GOOD
    thing, even to someone who doesn't care about informed sales people.

    (However, I say this as someone who rides a relatively slow recumbent bicycle solely for the comfort
    factor. My DF bike IS faster than my bent bike. Down to a certain limit, speed is not a great factor
    in my bicycle buying decisions.)

    Paul Harris Victoria, BC
     
  8. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Paul Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:090420031719480308%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, Mikael Seierup
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > "B. Sanders" skrev
    > > > You are informed and enlightened. There is a whole huge cycling establishment out there which
    > > > needs demonstrations like this to inform
    them
    > > > about which bikes are truly the fastest. Do we really know? Every
    day, in
    > > > every bike shop, some salesperson says "this is the fastest bike in
    the
    > > > shop." Is it a recumbent? Is it a DF? My bet is that 99.9% of the
    time,
    > > > they're talking about an upright bike. They need to be informed.
    > >
    > > Why? I can still ride my recumbent despite all of this. They seem happy enough on their bikes
    > > and I was too for 28 years or so. And at any rate you have to experience the "conversion"
    > > yourself. Its one of those things you can't be told IMO.
    >
    > One reason I can think of, is that if salespeople are informed about recumbent performance, and
    > eventually the general public picks up on this, an increase in sales of recumbent bicycles will
    > result in higher production runs, and thus lower prices, for these bicycles. That has to be a GOOD
    > thing, even to someone who doesn't care about informed sales people.

    You are definitely on the right track, Paul. I can't understand why I haven't received a flood of
    "count me in" responses from the fast recumbent riders. So far, they're keeping silent.

    -Barry
     
  9. I don't know whether this happens on the other side of the Big Ditch, but here in Blighty several of
    our venues are used for both upright and HPV races. It should be a relatively simple matter to
    compare average speeds from the two events, or would be if the upright crowd were as obsessed with
    getting comprehensive results as we are.

    Anyway, here's one example. 2000 was Rob English's first season of racing recumbents, having been
    racing uprights to a high amateur level for a Several of years. In his first race on the Kingcycle
    Wasp tail-faired low racer, he was only slightly slower than Dave Richards (who went on to win the
    unfaired title for the third time that year) and a good bit quicker than Pete Cox. Next time out was
    the two-hour race at Castle Combe, a 1.84 mile ex-airfield motor racing circuit. Gently undulating
    terrain and the surface smooth enough at bike speeds not to cause any problems. IIRC it was the
    hottest day of the year too. Rob was due to ride the K2 streamliner, but it broke in testing so
    reverted to his upright racing bike. He finished two laps behind unfaired winner Dave and a lap down
    on Pete. And nine laps behind overall winner Ian Chattington...

    Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    ===========================================================
     
  10. They're quiet because this is a stupid idea. All things equal, recumbents are faster in certain
    environs and DFs are faster in others. In the hillier parts of the country, a recumbent can't stay
    with any but the slowest of DF riders and on the Bonneville salt flats, a faired recumbent is very
    fast. So, what does a race prove? Certainly not that one bike is faster than another. It's been my
    experience that, in the end, it's the motor that make the most difference - except in hilly terrain,
    where a recumbent just can't keep up no matter who's pedaling.

    Gene

    "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Paul Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:090420031719480308%[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Mikael Seierup <[email protected]>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > > "B. Sanders" skrev
    > > > > You are informed and enlightened. There is a whole huge cycling establishment out there
    > > > > which needs demonstrations like this to
    inform
    > them
    > > > > about which bikes are truly the fastest. Do we really know? Every
    > day, in
    > > > > every bike shop, some salesperson says "this is the fastest bike in
    > the
    > > > > shop." Is it a recumbent? Is it a DF? My bet is that 99.9% of the
    > time,
    > > > > they're talking about an upright bike. They need to be informed.
    > > >
    > > > Why? I can still ride my recumbent despite all of this. They seem happy enough on their bikes
    > > > and I was too for 28 years or
    so.
    > > > And at any rate you have to experience the "conversion" yourself. Its one of those things you
    > > > can't be told IMO.
    > >
    > > One reason I can think of, is that if salespeople are informed about recumbent performance, and
    > > eventually the general public picks up on this, an increase in sales of recumbent bicycles will
    > > result in higher production runs, and thus lower prices, for these bicycles. That has to be a
    > > GOOD thing, even to someone who doesn't care about informed sales people.
    >
    > You are definitely on the right track, Paul. I can't understand why I haven't received a flood of
    > "count me in" responses from the fast
    recumbent
    > riders. So far, they're keeping silent.
    >
    > -Barry
     
  11. Skip

    Skip Guest

    For years the Argus Cycle Tour in South Africa allowed diamond frames (called standards), recumbents
    (called unconventionals), and tandems race. The unconventionals and tandems start first. I haven't
    kept up with the race in the past few years, but in the nineties Lightning F40's had the best time
    for several years. Streamliners raced too, but seemed to always have mechanical, rider, or
    environmental (wind) problems. I don't recall a good finish by an unfaired recumbent, but the F40
    seemed to be suited to the environment.

    I think the Argus is now the worlds largest race. The following link shows some pictures of the
    race. It's a lovely place and looks to me to be a place I would like to take a leisurely tour.

    http://goinside.com/98/4/argus.html

    skip
     
  12. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Eugene Cottrell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > They're quiet because this is a stupid idea.

    You're just afraid that recumbents are faster, which you know to be true. What are you protecting?

    -B
     
  13. I agree, this is stupid. There are more important things than which is fastest. As others have said,
    it's the MOTOR and ONLY THE MOTOR that counts. Unless you can get identical motors, the results are
    meaningless.
     
  14. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "JussiBjoerling" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I agree, this is stupid. There are more important things than which is fastest.

    Serious racers would disagree with you quite strongly. To them, speed is the only thing
    that matters.

    > As others have said, it's the MOTOR and ONLY THE MOTOR that counts.

    They are wrong. The Grudge Match Series will show that logical error quite clearly. Every year, the
    Battle Mountain event disproves your assertion quite handily, since the design of those wheeled
    rockets *definitely* affects their top speeds. This is well known.

    > Unless you can get identical motors, the results are meaningless.

    Wrong again. There isn't a cycle race in the world that guarantees identical "motors"; yet they are
    considered valid, and discussions of "the fastest bike" are quite prevalent. Are you saying that
    bicycle engineers are all wrong for trying to make a faster bike? You'll have a very hard time
    defending that assertion.

    As I keep saying: There is only one way to find out - LET'S RACE!!!

    Barry
     
  15. "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message .att.net...

    Sanders, listen to your peers in this ng, your idea bombed out.
     
  16. Oddly enough, we just had one of these in the UK to celebrate the reopening of the Reading
    velodrome.

    In the blue corner, mounted upon their uprighty track irons, the current national champion team
    pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael

    In the red corner, mounted upon his 20-odd lb home-brewed unfaired[1] low racer (the Hachi), Young
    Master Robert English.

    4000 m later...

    VC St. Raphael: 4:28 Young Master Robert: 4:25

    And remember that this was four against one.

    1 - not even a tailbox.

    Dave Larrington - http://legslarry.crosswinds.net/
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    ===========================================================
     
  17. John B

    John B Guest

    Dave Larrington wrote:

    > Oddly enough, we just had one of these in the UK to celebrate the reopening of the Reading
    > velodrome.
    >
    > In the blue corner, mounted upon their uprighty track irons, the current national champion team
    > pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael
    >
    > In the red corner, mounted upon his 20-odd lb home-brewed unfaired[1] low racer (the Hachi), Young
    > Master Robert English.
    >
    > 4000 m later...
    >
    > VC St. Raphael: 4:28 Young Master Robert: 4:25
    >
    > And remember that this was four against one.
    >

    I undertood it was even more conclusive that that according to the organisers report. The speed was
    so high at the start that the Pursuit Team even lost a rider early on, so it was effectively only 3
    against 1.

    VC St Raphael: 4m 55.5 secs Rob English: 5m 6.8 secs

    It was a great day out, and even without Rob's challenge, the day's racing kept the family
    entertained for well over 5 hours.

    John B
     
  18. B. Sanders

    B. Sanders Guest

    "Dave Larrington" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Oddly enough, we just had one of these in the UK to celebrate the
    reopening
    > of the Reading velodrome.
    >
    > In the blue corner, mounted upon their uprighty track irons, the current national champion team
    > pursuit squad, VC St.Raphael
    >
    > In the red corner, mounted upon his 20-odd lb home-brewed unfaired[1] low racer (the Hachi), Young
    > Master Robert English.
    >
    > 4000 m later...
    >
    > VC St. Raphael: 4:28 Young Master Robert: 4:25
    >
    > And remember that this was four against one.

    Interesting results. Thanks, Larry.

    We might also point out that the Hachi is a radical new design, not a time-tested traditional
    frame geometry.

    -Barry
     
  19. John B

    John B Guest

    John B wrote:

    > Dave Larrington wrote:
    >
    > > Oddly enough, we just had one of these in the UK to celebrate the reopening of the Reading
    > > velodrome.

    <snip

    > I undertood it was even more conclusive that that according to the organisers report. The speed
    > was so high at the start that the Pursuit Team even lost a rider early on, so it was effectively
    > only 3 against 1.
    >
    > VC St Raphael: 4m 55.5 secs Rob English: 5m 6.8 secs
    >
    > It was a great day out, and even without Rob's challenge, the day's racing kept the family
    > entertained for well over 5 hours.
    >
    > John B

    Err...Prat. <hits head hard>

    The times were the other way around. Doh.

    VC St Raphael: 5m 6.8 secs Rob English: 4m 55.5 secs

    John B
     
  20. Derek

    Derek Guest

    My guess is that Rob could have probably also beat them on his upright Bike Friday. Have you ever
    raced against the guy?

    Cheers, Derek
     
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