headlight recommend?

[[email protected]]

DougC <[email protected]> wrote:

> I also run dual tail-lights, on blink, all the time--because if I'm
>riding alone and only have one on and it fails, I would not know until I
>got off the bike for some reason.

I REALLY like your logic on the above!! Redundancy
helps keep you safe!!

I'm glad your brought this point up as its something I
will know do as well..!!!

 

[datakoll]

On Apr 27, 8:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Apr 27, 5:59 pm, DougC <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Now then: on the general subject of bike lights.
>
> > I don't understand the reasoning for most "light freaks"; I have heard
> > of people who like to ride off-road at night, or who have bad eyesight
> > and for them perhaps a 10 or 15W HID makes sense--but for most people
> > (especially riding on the street) it's really not necessary. And
> > spending $500 for a bike and then spending $500 for a light kit is
> > rather silly, IMO.
>
> I agree.  Or to put it in terms of light output instead of dollars:
> It's rather silly to spend a ton of money so a 15 mph bicycle's
> headlight is as bright as a 150 mph motorcycle's headlight.
>
> I think the source of the problem is twofold.  One is: we have the
> usual contingent of people who think that cycling is dangerous, and
> that nothing trumps the need for safety.  Those folks seem to think
> you can be noticed only if your headlight is the brightest light on
> the entire street, and that you MUST spend enough to get that output.
>
> A second is that when lights for night mountain biking were first put
> on the market, they were crude, unfocused, and advertised based on
> "WATTS!!!!" rather than any sort of efficiency.  Their design worked
> OK for off-roading; and many people, never having seen a really good
> bike headlight, decided they were a must for road work as well.
>
> So ever since, we've got cyclists that aren't happy unless they're
> blasting mega-lumens all over the front half of the universe.  And
> doing that costs money.
>
> Meanwhile, the parts of the world where people have always ridden
> bikes keep doing just fine with their relatively low power (but
> optically good) headlamps.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

gee whiz frank you otta go night riding more often say at 2-3AM or
before dawn if no rash hour.
Easy overriding the usual crop of weak beams at 15-20.
if ur just toddling along at the BEAM'S LIMIT no prob but if yawl
wanna ride at YOUR LIMIT then a the otherwise capable $35 cateye
doesn't light the way.
best riding done in nabs with street lights - no traffic. appreciation
for solitude. outback its just freakin dark

 

[datakoll]

On Apr 28, 5:44 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 27, 8:33 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 27, 5:59 pm, DougC <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Now then: on the general subject of bike lights.
>
> > > I don't understand the reasoning for most "light freaks"; I have heard
> > > of people who like to ride off-road at night, or who have bad eyesight
> > > and for them perhaps a 10 or 15W HID makes sense--but for most people
> > > (especially riding on the street) it's really not necessary. And
> > > spending $500 for a bike and then spending $500 for a light kit is
> > > rather silly, IMO.
>
> > I agree.  Or to put it in terms of light output instead of dollars:
> > It's rather silly to spend a ton of money so a 15 mph bicycle's
> > headlight is as bright as a 150 mph motorcycle's headlight.
>
> > I think the source of the problem is twofold.  One is: we have the
> > usual contingent of people who think that cycling is dangerous, and
> > that nothing trumps the need for safety.  Those folks seem to think
> > you can be noticed only if your headlight is the brightest light on
> > the entire street, and that you MUST spend enough to get that output.
>
> > A second is that when lights for night mountain biking were first put
> > on the market, they were crude, unfocused, and advertised based on
> > "WATTS!!!!" rather than any sort of efficiency.  Their design worked
> > OK for off-roading; and many people, never having seen a really good
> > bike headlight, decided they were a must for road work as well.
>
> > So ever since, we've got cyclists that aren't happy unless they're
> > blasting mega-lumens all over the front half of the universe.  And
> > doing that costs money.
>
> > Meanwhile, the parts of the world where people have always ridden
> > bikes keep doing just fine with their relatively low power (but
> > optically good) headlamps.
>
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> gee whiz frank you otta go night riding more often say at 2-3AM or
> before dawn if no rash hour.
> Easy overriding the usual crop of weak beams at 15-20.
> if ur just toddling along at the BEAM'S LIMIT no prob but if yawl
> wanna ride at YOUR LIMIT then a the otherwise capable $35 cateye
> doesn't light the way.
> best riding done in nabs with street lights - no traffic. appreciation
> for solitude. outback its just freakin dark- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

at 3AM
IT'S LONG BEACH !!
eeeyahahahahahwhowho

 

[SMS]

Nate Nagel wrote:

> At this point, I'm about ready to take the headlight mount for the light
> I've already bought and do something to it with a hose clamp; it's
> worthless to me as it is, so... so long as I don't damage my
> handlebars, and nobody looks too closely (and by that time they're
> already laughing at my extra-Freddy pedals, another budget concession)
> who cares?

See "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/flashlights.html". You don't have to get
too funky for the mounting. I've made several mountings for flashlights.

Just remember that often the clamp will go on a non-straight section of
the handlebars, so whatever mount you have needs to be be able to be
rotated enough for the light to point straight ahead.

 

[SMS]

Nate Nagel wrote:
> Rode down to LBS today, explained my headlight dilemma (cross bike,
> difficult to find space to mount headlight) and after explaining desired
> use - allowing me to ride after dark, because I don't often have the
> opportunity to ride during the day, save on weekends - they recommended
> this:
>
> http://www.abikestore.com/Merchant2..._Code=mini-newt&Category_Code=&Store_Code=pbs

That's insanely expensive.

The short answer is to get either a $58 Fenix L2DCE or a $30 TaskForce
2C 3W Cree LED (from Lowe's), and either buy or fabricate a mounting
bracket. Both lights are self-contained. Both are far better than most
bicycle lights on the market, at considerably less cost.

Yeah, the MiNewt puts out a bit more light than the Fenix (150 lumens
versus 135 lumens) and uses a more efficient Li-Ion battery, but it's
really overkill unless you really need the higher efficiency (and with
the Fenix or TaskForce you can carry a couple of extra batteries around
or buy at any store in a pinch). I'm normally a big advocate of Li-Ion
batteries (for digital cameras) but one reason is that after-market
Li-Ion camera batteries are very inexpensive.

Go to "http://bicyclelighting.com" and go to the flashlights section (or
go straight to "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/flashlights.html"). Lots of
suggestions for flashlights and handlebar mounts. You can also just type
"bicycle lighting" into the Google search bar, and click on "I'm Feeling
Lucky" and it'll take you right to that site. Oh, did I mention that
it's my site?!

You don't need to spend the big bucks on a MiNewt, or a DiNotte.

 

[SMS]

Jay wrote:
> "Nate Nagel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Rode down to LBS today, explained my headlight dilemma (cross bike,
>> difficult to find space to mount headlight) and after explaining desired
>> use - allowing me to ride after dark, because I don't often have the
>> opportunity to ride during the day, save on weekends - they recommended
>> this:
>>
>> http://www.abikestore.com/Merchant2..._Code=mini-newt&Category_Code=&Store_Code=pbs
>>
>> Looks like a sweet little piece, but the price tag is almost half as much
>> as I paid for my bike!
>>
> How much would it cost to drag your wrecked bike and injured body by
> ambulance to the nearest hospital? Because you were penny wise on your bike
> headlight?!
>
> An ambulance ALONE is $1,000 USD. Plus the hospital bill. Plus the ER DR
> bill.
>
> If you go with a cheapie headlight, I hope you have great group insurance
> coverage. Otherwise, you are undoubtedly financially SCREWED.

OMG, talk about ridiculous.

You can't plot night time riding danger on a graph of bicycle light cost
versus injuries. You could spend $500 on a SON dynamo and headlight and
have a system that illuminates more poorly than a $30 Lowe's Cree
flashlight, but that has advantages over the flashlight nevertheless.

The key here is to choose a middle ground, of a very efficient Cree LED
flashlight, attached via a solid mount to the handlebars. It'll be no
less safe than an outrageously priced MiNewt or DiNotte, just a little
less elegant.

 

[SMS]

Nate Nagel wrote:
> mtb Dad wrote:
>> On Apr 27, 10:19 am, Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Grr.
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>
> just frustration. Every single time someone has recommended a light as
> "this is cheap but decent" looking at the pictures alone as confirmed
> that the light in question will not fit on a cross bike with the aux.
> brake levers installed.

Some of the flashlight mounts will let you mount the flashlight pretty
far back in the mount.

I.e. "http://www.eliteled.com/products/accessory/fenix-bfm.html" I think
you can move the flashlight very far back in the mount so it doesn't
stick out past the bars, i.e. the lens almost flush with the mount. You
just have to be sure that the mount is secure enough so it doesn't
rotate around the handlebars due to the flashlight not being balanced in
the middle.

Also remember that the light can hang below the handlebars, it doesn't
have to be above.

One bracket I made "http://nordicgroup.us/s78/images/IMG_0239.JPG" is
very narrow, and might be out of the way of the cables.

 

[SMS]

Nate Nagel wrote:

> Of course I've already taken it apart; one thing I might want to do is
> glue a piece of old rubber glove inside the end cap where the switch is
> housed. It looks to be pretty well sealed up other than that. I think
> I'll also try to put some kind of sleeve (TP roll slit longitudinally?)
> inside the battery tube as it's a little larger than it needs to be and
> the batteries rattle around a bit.

Just a sheet of paper rolled up around the batteries stops the rattling.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) they made the barrel large enough
diameter to accept the outer limit of diameter of C cells, so you get
the rattling with most cells.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Jay Bollyn wrote:
> [...]
> For 'illuminate pavement' headlights, see DiNotte headlights: Simply
> the best, brightest, and best customer service, by far.
>
Why go with such inexpensive, low powered lights?

This is the one to have: <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/bigbang.asp>.
If only the adapter for US/Canadian outlets was no additional charge.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[[email protected]]

On Apr 27, 4:18 am, Ecnerwal <[email protected]>
wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>  Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Telling everyone that wants to ride at night that they need to spend
> > $180 on a headlight is fine, I guess, if you want to encourage people
> > not to ride...
>
> Well, you know, there those who encourage riding, and those who
> encourage spending lots of money at the LBS, with riding being quite
> optional, so long as the money gets spent - and not at any of your
> hardware stores or evil on-line places.
>
> Put on a tail-light and some side markers as well, preferably. You can
> get the standard 3 red LED tail unit for $2.95 + shipping fromwww.sciplus.com(just a happy customer). They also have a bigger one
> (with 6 times the LEDs) for $8.50. At least you'll know how much your
> LBS is extorting (above the commodity price) for this sort of thing if
> you shop there.
>
> If you're handy with a soldering iron, you can cobble tail and marker
> lights up yourself, though you would have a difficult time breaking even
> for the above price on a tail light with a nice lens and mount.
>
> Don't bother with their 9 white LED "bike & head lamp", other than as a
> possible side marker light, with a little yellow on the lens. Beats no
> light at all (I got one for the headlamp function), but is shamed by the
> low-end single emitter light mentioned below (which I got later on).
>
> If you'll be riding a lot, a NiMH rapid charger and a pile of NiMH AA's
> will cost a lot less than disposables. If you don't use them much,
> disposables are cheaper. Best price I those I found last year was for a
> 20-pack atAdoramacamera (also just a happy customer, and a very price
> sensitive one for "commodity" items like this). Some other place may
> well have them cheaper this week. Avoid coin-cell lights for regular use
> - coin cells are expensive unless you buy thousands at a time.
>
> I've got one of the less exciting super-duper LED lights (Terrralux
> lower-end conversion for a 2AA minimag I already owned) and it's very
> effective for being seen (by oncoming cars - I use it when walking along
> the road at night - there's no sidewalk here), and pretty darn good for
> seeing, though I'd suggest getting one of the better/brighter units (as
> others have suggested) for that purpose on a bike. Goes a very long time
> on a set of AA rechargables (I have yet to run it all the way out before
> I decide to recharge for the sake of the batteries). Changed a dim
> battery-eater into a useful light.
>
> Be careful about aiming the bright LED lights - they are painfully
> bright to look at and can blind/dazzle the same as a car high-beam if
> aimed too high. That can help get you IN an accident.
>
> Riding at night can be a hairy proposition - but that's regardless of
> how much or how little you've spent on lights, and daytime does not
> remove the hairiness in many places. Every route out of town here
> involves long stretches of too many cars and not enough space for bikes
> (one even has a goodly stretch of concrete retaining wall on the inside
> of a corner - no place to go AND no visibility) - I'm surprised there
> are not more accidents. Once out of town the bike-lane program on the
> highway bills has had a noticeable positive effect on room for bikes -
> getting there is not half the fun, however. At present, I try to stick
> to riding during daylight.
>
> When I lived in a somewhat more developed area, I rode at night on the
> sidewalks, and got off and walked across the intersections. Faster than
> walking the whole way, and safer than sharing the road with obliviots
> who would run you over with or without lights. On the rare occasion I
> encountered a pedestrian, I'd pop out into the road (for the space
> between driveways needed to bypass the pedestrian) if there were no
> cars, or dismount and walk by if there were, so as not to be an obliviot
> on a bike hogging the sidewalk.
>
> --
> Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

Lawrence

Thanks for the recommendation - at Adorama, we always appreciate when
happy customers tell others about our competitive prices!

Best

Helen Oster
Adorama Camera Customer Service Ambassador

 

[SMS]

Tom Sherman wrote:
> Jay Bollyn wrote:
>> [...]
>> For 'illuminate pavement' headlights, see DiNotte headlights: Simply
>> the best, brightest, and best customer service, by far.
>>
> Why go with such inexpensive, low powered lights?
>
> This is the one to have: <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/bigbang.asp>.
> If only the adapter for US/Canadian outlets was no additional charge.

I was all set to order four of them, then I saw that the $975 each was
just the beginning. No way was I going to shell out $3 each for plug
adapters.

You gotta laugh at the assertion that only this HID light is safe to use
on the road. Other HID lights are equally aim-able to not blind oncoming
traffic.

You can buy a 13W self-contained ballast HID light for $120, then add
your own 12 volt battery, and have something nearly as good for well
under $200 (which is still a lot, but not stupid-expensive).

OTOH, it's good to see that this Peter White Cycles recognizes the
advantages of bright lights, as their main product line has been dynamo
lights until recently.

 

[Dan O]

On Apr 29, 1:42 pm, N8N <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 29, 4:30 pm, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Tom Sherman wrote:
> > > Jay Bollyn wrote:
> > >> [...]
> > >> For 'illuminate pavement' headlights, see DiNotte headlights: Simply
> > >> the best, brightest, and best customer service, by far.
>
> > > Why go with such inexpensive, low powered lights?
>
> > > This is the one to have: <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/bigbang.asp>.
> > > If only the adapter for US/Canadian outlets was no additional charge.
>
> > I was all set to order four of them, then I saw that the $975 each was
> > just the beginning. No way was I going to shell out $3 each for plug
> > adapters.
>
> > You gotta laugh at the assertion that only this HID light is safe to use
> > on the road. Other HID lights are equally aim-able to not blind oncoming
> > traffic.
>
> Eh, it's not completely laughable. I suspect but have no proof that
> many "bike headlights" simply have a flashlight-style beam pattern...

I use only a taillight (Planet Bike "Super Flash" - awesome light,
BTW). SWMBO insisted. Otherwise I guess I'd still be riding the old
black Trek around like a stealthy puma. But I do like the taillight.
I can hear cars coming waaaay back there... then I hear them suddenly
slow down, and I can even hear inside the driver's head "What the heck
is that?!" ... Then, just a moment or two later, I hear their head
telling them, "Oh, it's just some guy on a bike." Then, *most* of
them pass me quite safely and courteously.

Admittedly, when it was still pitch dark outside in the morning I had
to really strain sometimes to detect the white line and know where the
road was in front of me, but in terms of being seen, what matters is
what's behind. I mean, what's the oncoming gonna do? Swerve all the
way across the road to take me out because they didn't know I was
there? (I do acknowledge the case where one oncoming vehicle is
passing another.)

I do intend to buy a headlight, though (I've got my eye on the Planet
Bike Beamer 5) - just as soon as it floats up close enough to the top
priorities around payday. Right now I feel like a good rain jacket
trumps any sort of headlight. For that matter a second (backup)
taillight might be a better investment in safety. (* I do realize
that it may be technically illegal for me to ride in the dark with no
headlight ;-)

 

[Chalo]

N8N wrote:
>
> I mean, the concept of having enough light
> output to fry flies makes me giggle, but I honestly don't want to
> inadvertantly blind oncoming motorists...

Yeah, you'd have to blind them, deafen them, fog them with poison gas,
and run them off the road to fully return the favors they do for us.

Chalo

 

[Nate Nagel]

Chalo wrote:
> N8N wrote:
>
>>I mean, the concept of having enough light
>>output to fry flies makes me giggle, but I honestly don't want to
>>inadvertantly blind oncoming motorists...
>
>
> Yeah, you'd have to blind them, deafen them, fog them with poison gas,
> and run them off the road to fully return the favors they do for us.
>
> Chalo

From a motorist's perspective, I'm not a big fan of cyclists. I call
the cyclists that I see from behind the wheel "suicyclists" because I
assume from their behavior that they have a death wish. I have no
desire to start yet another interminable RAD/rec.bicycles.whatever flame
war, but let's just agree that there's plenty of stupid on both sides.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

 

[SMS]

Chalo wrote:
> N8N wrote:
>> I mean, the concept of having enough light
>> output to fry flies makes me giggle, but I honestly don't want to
>> inadvertantly blind oncoming motorists...
>
> Yeah, you'd have to blind them, deafen them, fog them with poison gas,
> and run them off the road to fully return the favors they do for us.
>
> Chalo

Cyclists don't have to behave as poorly as motorists to "get even."

Still, there seems to be an irrational fear by some cyclists that using
decent lights may somehow be irritating to motorists, and that this
should be a prime consideration in the selection of a light.

In my experiences as a driver, the only front bicycle lights I've seen
that are even mildly annoying are the high-intensity white LED strobes.

When I see a good rear light (high-intensity LEDs or xenon strobe) I'm
not annoyed because the cyclists had the good sense to use something
that makes him or her visible.

What's really annoying to drivers is lights where that are directly
aimed at them so the get the full intensity of the beam in their face.
Daytime running lights on some junky vehicles use the high beams at half
intensity (wired in series) and it's been the source of many complaints
about glare to the NHTSA.

For HID and Cree LED lights, just be sure that the light is angled
slightly down, which you'd probably do anyway in order to illuminate the
road.

 

[SMS]

Nate Nagel wrote:

> See my last post. I already bought the Lowe's flashlight, and also I've
> been searching online for NiMHs (as I already have a NiMH charger for my
> digicam, that accepts all sizes of cells.) Seems that "CTA" rates their
> C cells at 5500mAH and their AAAs at 1200 mAH... not sure how much my
> blinky draws, but a 3W LED at roughly 3V should be 1A so 10AH should be
> waaaay more than enough for any ride I'd care to go on. I'll probably
> order those and a twofish mount online unless someone tells me not to
> for whatever reason.

<snip>

At lunch I was volunteering and another guy noticed that I had ridden my
bicycle and he saw my lights we got into a good discussion of cycling,
lighting, frames, etc. By the time we were done, he was headed off to
Lowe's to buy "the flashlight" and some conduit clamps to mount it to
his bicycle in time for a night ride tonight.

Maybe it's the great weather, maybe it's the $4 gasoline, but all of a
sudden I see a big increase in cycling around my area (Silicon Valley).
There also seems to be a sudden increase in the availability of more
utilitarian bicycles, i.e. the Schwinn Coffee, that Performance can't
keep in stock
"http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=25077&estore_ID=1366".
I even saw a Biria today, something I've never seen outside a bicycle
show.

I think the U.S. bicycle companies may be scared to offer something like
the Schwinn Coffee (a $200 utility bicycle) worrying that it'll
cannibalize high end sales, when in reality it would probably drive high
end sales, and drive high-margin accessory sales. Pacific Cycle may be
on to something with a retro-bike with fenders and chainguard for $200.

 

[Nate Nagel]

SMS wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> See my last post. I already bought the Lowe's flashlight, and also
>> I've been searching online for NiMHs (as I already have a NiMH charger
>> for my digicam, that accepts all sizes of cells.) Seems that "CTA"
>> rates their C cells at 5500mAH and their AAAs at 1200 mAH... not sure
>> how much my blinky draws, but a 3W LED at roughly 3V should be 1A so
>> 10AH should be waaaay more than enough for any ride I'd care to go
>> on. I'll probably order those and a twofish mount online unless
>> someone tells me not to for whatever reason.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> At lunch I was volunteering and another guy noticed that I had ridden my
> bicycle and he saw my lights we got into a good discussion of cycling,
> lighting, frames, etc. By the time we were done, he was headed off to
> Lowe's to buy "the flashlight" and some conduit clamps to mount it to
> his bicycle in time for a night ride tonight.
>
> Maybe it's the great weather, maybe it's the $4 gasoline, but all of a
> sudden I see a big increase in cycling around my area (Silicon Valley).
> There also seems to be a sudden increase in the availability of more
> utilitarian bicycles, i.e. the Schwinn Coffee, that Performance can't
> keep in stock
> "http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=25077&estore_ID=1366".
> I even saw a Biria today, something I've never seen outside a bicycle
> show.
>
> I think the U.S. bicycle companies may be scared to offer something like
> the Schwinn Coffee (a $200 utility bicycle) worrying that it'll
> cannibalize high end sales, when in reality it would probably drive high
> end sales, and drive high-margin accessory sales. Pacific Cycle may be
> on to something with a retro-bike with fenders and chainguard for $200.

And you were nice enough not to correct me as when the batteries are in
series I still only have 5.5AH but at 3V instead of 1.5. Still that
should be good for at least 5 hours ASSuming that everyone's playing
honest with the numbers.

(facepalm)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

 

[Jay]

"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jay Bollyn wrote:
>> [...]
>> For 'illuminate pavement' headlights, see DiNotte headlights: Simply
>> the best, brightest, and best customer service, by far.
>>
> Why go with such inexpensive, low powered lights?
>
> This is the one to have: <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/bigbang.asp>. If
> only the adapter for US/Canadian outlets was no additional charge.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
>
>
Because my life is worth more than $2,000 USD...to me.

DUH!

J.

 

[Jay]

"Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a063a53d-7bda-44a3-99fb-5b9691ee7696@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> N8N wrote:
>>
>> I mean, the concept of having enough light
>> output to fry flies makes me giggle, but I honestly don't want to
>> inadvertantly blind oncoming motorists...
>
> Yeah, you'd have to blind them, deafen them, fog them with poison gas,
> and run them off the road to fully return the favors they do for us.
>
> Chalo
>
>
I like the 'blind them' part.

I just aim my lights 'strategically'.

Deranged Bike Terrorist J.

 

[Nate Nagel]

Jay wrote:
> "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:a063a53d-7bda-44a3-99fb-5b9691ee7696@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
>>N8N wrote:
>>
>>>I mean, the concept of having enough light
>>>output to fry flies makes me giggle, but I honestly don't want to
>>>inadvertantly blind oncoming motorists...
>>
>>Yeah, you'd have to blind them, deafen them, fog them with poison gas,
>>and run them off the road to fully return the favors they do for us.
>>
>>Chalo
>>
>>
>
> I like the 'blind them' part.
>
> I just aim my lights 'strategically'.
>
> Deranged Bike Terrorist J.
>

Um, guys? I'd be willing to bet that most people reading this group are
both cyclists *and* motorists, depending on when you catch them...

nate

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