Helmet Debate



Mark Thompson wrote:
> > This suggests to me that there are people (I don't know if BHIT
> > see it this way) who regard the 14mph+ situation as essentially
> > beyond solution, so they turn to what can be done about other
> > situations. If they're right about that then I can see why they
> > think the best that can be done is eliminating all those cuts
> > and bruises,

>
> No no no. What they see about the Xmph situation is with a helmet
> it's X-12mph. So they think a crash with helmet at 20mph becomes
> a crash at 8mph.


They surely don't think that, but they're perfectly happy to let it be
thought if it helps to achieve their ends. They are not honest people.

--
Dave...
 
> I would keep cycling without a lid. If the fines got too onerous
> <...snip>


Fines? The advantage of being a student is that by not paying fines HMG
pays for my food, full board, free gym etc etc. Just have to remember
the shower gel instead of the bars of soap.

Fortunately as the police can't be arsed pulling people for no
lights/pavement/jumping red lights I doubt they'd do it for no helmet.
 
>> You could try learning how to ride properly.
>
> Or more to the point how to fall properly. I have had all sorts of
> falling off incidents from the utterly stupid almost stationary to the
> full on downhill spill to coming off over the handlebars, to having
> the front wheel wash out from me and I have never once hit my head.


If you're having that many falls then learning how to ride properly might
be a good idea :)
 
>> No no no. What they see about the Xmph situation is with a helmet
>> it's X-12mph. So they think a crash with helmet at 20mph becomes
>> a crash at 8mph.

>
> They surely don't think that, but they're perfectly happy to let it be
> thought if it helps to achieve their ends. They are not honest people.


They don't let it be thought, they *say* it. Read the transcript of the
GMTV interview, sadly not picked up on by the other guy.

I did think all the inacuracies were the result of ignorance and stupidity
but as they continue to use these lies (they're not even half-truths) then
this, coupled with the hundred of thousands of £s they've raised, leads me
to believe that they are actually very compentent at what they're doing and
just using it as an 'end justifies the means' thingy.
 
in message <[email protected]>, Mark
Thompson ('[email protected]') wrote:

>> This suggests to me that there are people (I don't know if BHIT see it
>> this way) who regard the 14mph+ situation as essentially beyond
>> solution, so they turn to what can be done about other situations. If
>> they're right about that then I can see why they think the best that
>> can be done is eliminating all those cuts and bruises,

>
> No no no. What they see about the Xmph situation is with a helmet it's
> X-
> 12mph. So they think a crash with helmet at 20mph becomes a crash at
> 8mph.
>
> Could somone post some physics?


KE = (m * v^2) / 2

The energy of an impact varies with the square of the closing speed.
Which is quite simple and straightforward until you start throwing
soft-bodied objects (such as, for example, people) into the mix.

To quote
<URL:http://www.pacts.org.uk/parliament/briefings/ianneilsonpaper.htm>

"A number of studies have estimated the probability of a fatality
occurring at different speeds. These have produced varying results,
but Andersson and Nilsson (1) estimated that the probability varied by
the fourth power of the speed..."

Assume mass is 1. Then KE at 12 velocity units is (144/2); KE at 20
velocity units is (400/2); and we can in practice ignore the '/2' term
since it's a constant. The actual velocity units don't matter either,
since we're simply compating values. The 'energy equivalent speed', if
BHIT's assumptions that

(i) that a helmet protects against all injuries in collisions up
to 12 mph
(ii) that helmets respond linearly as energy increases
(iii) that injuries to unprotected parts of the body are negligible

are correct is (sqrt (400 - 144)), or 16 mph, and indeed the table goes
like this[1]

collision speed energy-equivalent
with helmet speed without helmet
12 0
20 16
30 27.49
40 38.15
50 48.53
60 58.78

But, as discussed above, injury appears to vary by a higher power. Let's
assume the Andersson and Nilsson value of the fourth power. Then the
injury equivalent speeds are[2]

collision speed injury-equivalent
with helmet speed without helmet
12 0
20 19.31
30 29.80
40 39.91
50 49.95
60 59.97

So in reality, assuming all the most generous assumptions to BHITs case
and in particular that there is no critical impact force at which the
helmet simply fails, and that there are no injuries to other parts of
the body, then an impact of 30mph wearing a helmet has the same
probability of death as a 29.8mph impact not wearing a helmet, and a
60mph impact wearing a helmet has the same probability of death as a
59.97mph impact not wearing a helmet.

[1] computed with
(defun energy-equivt-speed (speed)
(sqrt (- (expt speed 2) 144)))
[2] computed with
(defun injury-equivt-speed (speed)
(expt (- (expt speed 4)(expt 12 4)) .25))

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

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in message <[email protected]>, davek
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Mark Thompson wrote:
>> IMO this puts 'em up there with track mitts. Great at what they do
>> but not essential wearing.

>
> Track mitts - or any other kind of suitable gloves - are up there with
> shoes in my book. Yes, you /can/ cycle without them, but I very rarely
> do, if I can help it.


They're way above helmets in my book. I feel /very/ unsafe on a bike
without them - even though I haven't had a hand injury in a fall for
years.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

((DoctorWho)ChristopherEccleston).act();
uk.co.bbc.TypecastException: actor does not want to be typecast.
[adapted from autofile on /., 31/03/05]
 
On 5 Jul 2005 03:52:37 -0700, "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> No no no. What they see about the Xmph situation is with a helmet
>> it's X-12mph. So they think a crash with helmet at 20mph becomes
>> a crash at 8mph.


>They surely don't think that, but they're perfectly happy to let it be
>thought if it helps to achieve their ends. They are not honest people.


See the transcript of then GMTV interview: they do think exactly that.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
On 5 Jul 2005 03:34:17 -0700, "davek" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Track mitts - or any other kind of suitable gloves - are up there with
>shoes in my book. Yes, you /can/ cycle without them, but I very rarely
>do, if I can help it.


That used to be me, too. But these days I find that I am just as
likely to hop on the Brom without adding gloves, coat, hat or anything
else I wasn't already wearing.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On 5 Jul 2005 03:52:37 -0700, "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:


> >They surely don't think that, but they're perfectly happy to let
> >it be thought if it helps to achieve their ends. They are not
> > honest people.

>
> See the transcript of then GMTV interview: they do think exactly
> that.


They may say it, but does that mean they believe it? I agree with Mark
that they seem to believe the end justifies the means, and will make
any claims they think they can get away with. They seem to have got
away with this one.

--
Dave...
 
>> Could somone post some physics?

> <snip physics>


Perfect, thanks!
 
"Gavin Collinson" <[email protected]>typed

> Unfortunately many of the posters do not respect other opinions and views.


That's not the case.

Most of those who now express a view which is not unequivocally in
favour of helmets thought they were 'a good idea' once.

They are now better-read.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
Edgware.
 
in message <[email protected]>, Mark
Thompson ('[email protected]') wrote:

>>> Could somone post some physics?

>
>> <snip physics>

>
> Perfect, thanks!


WARNING! I'm not claiming my calculations are perfect or inarguable. I'm
posting them in order to stimulate criticism from others.

In particular

(i) the 'fourth power' hypothesis refers only to fatalities, and what
happens to other injuries as speed rises I don't know;
(ii) the 'fourth power' hypothesis is only (as I understand it) an
empirically derived number, derived from all road collisions, and may
not be applicable to cycle-related collisions;
(iii) at some point the helmet must suffer brittle failure. Obviously the
force which provokes brittle failure will reduce over the lifetime of
any given helmet as polystyrene becomes more brittle with age, but I
personally suspect that even a new helmet would be likely to suffer
brittle failure in a 60mph collision;
(iv) my functions may be dodgy, and you should check them before you
believe me.

However, I think I can say with fair confidence that one reason there's
no detectable improvement in casualties given helmet wearing is that the
amount of protection offered by a helmet in a traffic-speed impact is at
best so small as to be lost in statistical noise.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; All in all you're just another hick in the mall
-- Drink C'lloid
 
On 07/05/2005 11:52:37 "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mark Thompson wrote:


>>> This suggests to me that there are people (I don't know if BHIT see it
>>> this way) who regard the 14mph+ situation as essentially beyond
>>> solution, so they turn to what can be done about other situations. If
>>> they're right about that then I can see why they think the best that can
>>> be done is eliminating all those cuts and bruises,


>> No no no. What they see about the Xmph situation is with a helmet it's
>> X-12mph. So they think a crash with helmet at 20mph becomes a crash at
>> 8mph.


> They surely don't think that, but they're perfectly happy to let it be
> thought if it helps to achieve their ends. They are not honest people.


They probably do think that.

--

Buck

I would rather be out on my Catrike

http://www.catrike.co.uk
 
On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:18:09 +0100, Simon Brooke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>WARNING! I'm not claiming my calculations are perfect or inarguable. I'm
>posting them in order to stimulate criticism from others.
>In particular
>(i) the 'fourth power' hypothesis refers only to fatalities, and what
> happens to other injuries as speed rises I don't know;


I don't think it extends down to urban speeds, Joksch certainly didn't
think so.

>However, I think I can say with fair confidence that one reason there's
>no detectable improvement in casualties given helmet wearing is that the
>amount of protection offered by a helmet in a traffic-speed impact is at
>best so small as to be lost in statistical noise.


I think that is uncontroversial.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
"dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:
|
| Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
| > On 5 Jul 2005 03:52:37 -0700, "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:
|
| > >They surely don't think that, but they're perfectly happy to let
| > >it be thought if it helps to achieve their ends. They are not
| > > honest people.
| >
| > See the transcript of then GMTV interview: they do think exactly
| > that.
|
| They may say it, but does that mean they believe it? I agree with Mark
| that they seem to believe the end justifies the means, and will make
| any claims they think they can get away with. They seem to have got
| away with this one.

But what's in it for them, in the longer term? Maybe they want to make
some political capital, but they're not really angry young politicians
on the make.

Having seen something of the grant-sustained world it could simply be an
exercise in permanent fund-holding. They probably will be able, if a MHL
is passed and the same thing happens here as in Oz and NZ, to pass
themselves off as valiant tryers in a complex world i.e. it wasn't their
fault guv.

I suppose BHIT being essentially anonymous, they don't expect any mud to
stick...

--
Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph
 
Mark Thompson <[email protected]> wrote:
|
| > There are fewer because a consensus has been reached that helmets are
| > an abomination.
|
| We don't go that far!
|
| Group consensus seems to be that they are great at preventing minor
| injuries to the top of th head, but that their impact on serious injuries
| is hovering somewhere around the nil mark.
|
| IMO this puts 'em up there with track mitts. Great at what they do but not
| essential wearing.

That's how I see them too: leather gloves for the top of the head.

But they're also great at reducing the fear of RTAs. Not the risk, just
the fear.

--
Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph
 
Patrick Herring wrote:
> "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:


> | They may say it, but does that mean they believe it? I agree
> | with Mark that they seem to believe the end justifies the means,
> | and will make any claims they think they can get away with. They
> | seem to have got away with this one.
>
> But what's in it for them, in the longer term? Maybe they want to
> make some political capital, but they're not really angry young
> politicians on the make.


For them there is no longer term beyond the great goal.

--
Dave...
 
"dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:
|
| Patrick Herring wrote:
| > "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:
|
| > | They may say it, but does that mean they believe it? I agree
| > | with Mark that they seem to believe the end justifies the means,
| > | and will make any claims they think they can get away with. They
| > | seem to have got away with this one.
| >
| > But what's in it for them, in the longer term? Maybe they want to
| > make some political capital, but they're not really angry young
| > politicians on the make.
|
| For them there is no longer term beyond the great goal.

Eh?

--
Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk/ph
 
in message <[email protected]>, Just zis Guy,
you know? ('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:18:09 +0100, Simon Brooke
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>However, I think I can say with fair confidence that one reason there's
>>no detectable improvement in casualties given helmet wearing is that
>>the amount of protection offered by a helmet in a traffic-speed impact
>>is at best so small as to be lost in statistical noise.

>
> I think that is uncontroversial.


It clearly isn't. BHIT would controvert it extremely strongly, and I
think you'll find they'd have most of the less informed public on their
side.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Copyright (c) Simon Brooke; All rights reserved. Permission is
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Patrick Herring wrote:

> "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:
> |
> | Patrick Herring wrote:
> | > "dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote:
> |
> | > | They may say it, but does that mean they believe it? I agree
> | > | with Mark that they seem to believe the end justifies the means,
> | > | and will make any claims they think they can get away with. They
> | > | seem to have got away with this one.
> | >
> | > But what's in it for them, in the longer term? Maybe they want to
> | > make some political capital, but they're not really angry young
> | > politicians on the make.
> |
> | For them there is no longer term beyond the great goal.
>
> Eh?


I presume it means:

The "great goal" is to get mandatory helmut use. After that, they have no
goal.

--
Chris
 

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