Indurain's doctor says TDF too hard!

[Flyer]

There are no questions in mjolniry2k's mind. He has no mind, whatsoever.


He cannot ponder question of guilt or suspect behaviors. Neither is he acquainted with any former or active professional athletes from any sport.

He does not read news reports, only the commercials.

As Terry Bradshaw once told me---'corked bats are not the only way Sammy Sosa cheats" as terry moved his right hand over to his open left arm---and fained an injection of illegal PEDs. This was just after Sammy's bat disintegrated in full view of a National TV audience. Hard to deny it, but mjolnir will.

Anyway, that was in 2003. Today we have NFL New Orleans Head Coach, and Superbowl alumini of Terry Bradshaw's Pittsburg Steeler Team, Jim Haslett---going public on steroid use:

He admits to taking steroids in the NFL. Wow, what a surprise.


Further, and this is what you LA fans had better understand, he said:

'If you didn't (take steroids) you weren't as strong as everybody else, you weren't as fast as everybody else,' Haslett said. 'That's the only reason to do it. Everybody's looking for a competitive edge.'

Haslett did say everybody. I'll take that to mean 100% used steroids despite only three Steeler athletes now admitting to this after 30 years!

btw: they were NOT illegal then.

Haslett also sited the side effects of steroids as the reason he quit the sport.

Haslett was 160 lbs in HS, 230 lbs in college and 250 lbs as a lineman in the NFL.

Today that position calls for a 325-360 lbs athlete.

Supersize me!

Who can win a TDF w/o steroids, corticosteroids, blood boosting, and stimulants?

Indurain's doctor says NOBODY can.

Mr Angry - your contention that Armstrong has been thoroughly examined by the French prosecution is absolutely false. Letters have been sent to the head offices of Discovery, Tailwind and all Armstrong's houses. He has not responded to any of them.

One could speculate that Armstrong's swift witrhdrawl from Paris-Nice could have had as much to do with the French prosecutors breathing down his neck. This statement is pure speculation. My first statement is fact.

It is somewhat like the assertion that USPS were completely cleared in the Actovegin investigation. In fact, the investigators asked for fresh samples that could be tested for the raft of medical products used by USPS and thereby cross checked against declared meds to definitively prove whether or not they were using some unknown product - tests that would have proved beyond doubt that no PEDs were being used. Instead, Armstrong denied the prosecutors fresh samples. This is another fact, easily checkable, in the public domain. While Armstrong was perfectly within his rights to deny the investigators fresh samples, why would he do so if he has nothing to hide? A tiresome procedure, sure, but if you're squeaky clean how long does it take to pee in a cup and give a blood sample?

I'm not a well respected, award winning writer either, but I find this fact throws up some questions, don't you?

 

[mjolnir2k]

He cannot ponder question of guilt or suspect behaviors. Neither is he acquainted with any former or active professional athletes from any sport.

The difference between me and you is that I never claimed to...

He does not read news reports, only the commercials.

That's right..you are the only one who can read and understand. you have done so well to this point

As Terry Bradshaw once told me---'corked bats are not the only way Sammy Sosa cheats" as terry moved his right hand over to his open left arm---and fained an injection of illegal PEDs. This was just after Sammy's bat disintegrated in full view of a National TV audience. Hard to deny it, but mjolnir will.

Right, he must have told you that when you two were hanging out by the pool. Yeah, you and Terry Bradshaw must be great friends...LOL

Anyway, that was in 2003. Today we have NFL New Orleans Head Coach, and Superbowl alumini of Terry Bradshaw's Pittsburg Steeler Team, Jim Haslett---going public on steroid use:

He admits to taking steroids in the NFL. Wow, what a surprise.

A-HA! finally definitive proof that LANCE is doping...some guys in the NFL used 'roids...

Further, and this is what you LA fans had better understand, he said:

'If you didn't (take steroids) you weren't as strong as everybody else, you weren't as fast as everybody else,' Haslett said. 'That's the only reason to do it. Everybody's looking for a competitive edge.'

Haslett did say everybody. I'll take that to mean 100% used steroids despite only three Steeler athletes now admitting to this after 30 years!

Yup, you got us "Lance fans" now...NFL players that switch to cycling must really have an advantage!

Who can win a TDF w/o steroids, corticosteroids, blood boosting, and stimulants?

Indurain's doctor says NOBODY can.

Except apparently Indurain, who won it 5 times...good point!

What a buffoon you are. Feel free to enlist the help of Micron and any others to your warped view. You all have no proof and even less credibility.

Now, shouldn't you be calling your buddy Terry for some more inside rumors?

 

[Flyer]

Mjolnir cannot read nor comprehend.

The trauma doping truth re: pro cycling today

By Peter Cossins, October 12, 2001.


Lance Armstrong yellow wrist band wearers read this at your own peril! You will not like it.

The full link address:

http://eurocyclingnews.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=1041&p=2&stid=8214570


Why would a TDF multi-Championship physician say this stuff if were not true?

Delgado, Indurain & Armstrong---that's 12 TDF wins and a lot of medical attention.

Indurain used steroids! It ain't just the NFL.

 

[wolfix]

A few posts back , it was posted that Lemond has nothing to gain by an admission of guilt by Lance.
Wrong ..... His financial future is at stake ....... It was in the local paper that Greg was in court fighting a vendor because they dropped Greg's products because they felt Lance's name had more of an impact on the consumers in America........
I am a Greg Lemond fan . But I am a cyclist. Greg Lemond is not a household name in America. In bikeshops yes....Matter of fact , last year on Ragbrai[www.Ragbrai.com] he was suppose to make an apperarence ..... {I did not follow up to see that he did....} However, I work in a pub and I brought it up often that the Ragbrai ride is large enough that even Greg Lemond thinks it is important enough to show up . [One of his vendors had a booth there I think] ..... Most of my customers are college age and I had to explain to them who Greg is ....... [And as a cyclist I was slightly offended]
However, Lance is a household name......
Matter of fact , Lance is larger then the TDF in this country among non-cyclists..... [For this I do envy you Limerickman for living in Europe where people understand what a yellow jersey is ]
We live in the world of capitalism , and I agree with most everyone that the world of professional cycling is driven by capitalism.....
Greg has an expensive lifestyle ....... And everyone is fighting for their share of advertising dollors...... Greg is a businessman. I think most cyclists today can thank him for that . Even Lance..... The wages paid to cyclists are in part because of Lemond...... When a person reads Gregs biography I think that it comes out real clear that Greg's business is 'GREG." I admire that. My favorite cyclists are ones that want to dominate......It's in their personality.
I can't speak for Europe. But in America, we forget old athletes and move on to the newest and bestest .....

 

[Flyer]

Absolutely true. Just to be very clear---it is never in a businessman's interest to speak out (whistle
blower) about the dirty little industry secrets of success. (ie: how the sausages are made)

You did not witness Donald Fehr or Bud Selig admit to any doping in MLB. They love money too much.

Greg hurt himself financially with his candid remarks re: LA & anemia doping with Ferrari.

This proves Greg's great love for the sport--and this love trumps his love of money.

Greg & Kathy Lemond are golden and America is lucky to have these two Champions.

A few posts back , it was posted that Lemond has nothing to gain by an admission of guilt by Lance.
Wrong ..... His financial future is at stake ....... It was in the local paper that Greg was in court fighting a vendor because they dropped Greg's products because they felt Lance's name had more of an impact on the consumers in America........
I am a Greg Lemond fan . But I am a cyclist. Greg Lemond is not a household name in America. In bikeshops yes....Matter of fact , last year on Ragbrai[www.Ragbrai.com] he was suppose to make an apperarence ..... {I did not follow up to see that he did....} However, I work in a pub and I brought it up often that the Ragbrai ride is large enough that even Greg Lemond thinks it is important enough to show up . [One of his vendors had a booth there I think] ..... Most of my customers are college age and I had to explain to them who Greg is ....... [And as a cyclist I was slightly offended]
However, Lance is a household name......
Matter of fact , Lance is larger then the TDF in this country among non-cyclists..... [For this I do envy you Limerickman for living in Europe where people understand what a yellow jersey is ]
We live in the world of capitalism , and I agree with most everyone that the world of professional cycling is driven by capitalism.....
Greg has an expensive lifestyle ....... And everyone is fighting for their share of advertising dollors...... Greg is a businessman. I think most cyclists today can thank him for that . Even Lance..... The wages paid to cyclists are in part because of Lemond...... When a person reads Gregs biography I think that it comes out real clear that Greg's business is 'GREG." I admire that. My favorite cyclists are ones that want to dominate......It's in their personality.
I can't speak for Europe. But in America, we forget old athletes and move on to the newest and bestest .....

 

[limerickman]

That they have nothing to gain is an assumption that I can not speculate about. I don't claim to have secret knowledge of people's interior motives, just that to date none of this has transpired. Last I checked Mr. Armstrong had been VIGOROUSLY examined by the French prosecutors office and they found nothing of merit to charge against him.

There a several legal ongoing proceedings in France.

The case to which you incorrectly refer - is a separate CRIMINAL case pertaining to LA.
Wholly different to the CIVIL case taken by LA in respect of the book LA Confidentiel.

Before entering the discussion, junior, you need to know what you're talking
about.
You cannot even distinguish between the cases concerned.

And in respect of the criminal case being investigated by the French prosecutors, no formal proceedings have been entered in to as yet.
Therefore, you are factually incorrect when you state that LA has been vigourously cross examined.

In the literal sense, but then so is People magazine...

Well you should stick to People magazine.
The legal tomes and proceedures are far to advanced for you to read, never mind try to understand !

You are assuming that there wll be no court cases against him in the US as a result of the French case. If he were found guilty of sporting fraud, even in France, you can be assured the backlash in the US would spur a few legal cases.

And until that time comes, why continue to slander him?

The case against LA at this time is being investigated by the French.
That investigation will run it's course.

The separate libel case is due to be heard in France about the book.
Let's await to see the outcome of that case before pre-empting any cases being taken in the USA.

It would help your own credibility to try to see the opposing viewpoint, instead of trying to insult Micron, Flyer or myself.
You don't do yourself any favours resorting to insults.

I have no difficulty with your wishing to defend LA but try to do so without
insulting other people.
You only let yourself down.

 

[wolfix]

Absolutely true. Just to be very clear---it is never in a businessman's interest to speak out (whistle
blower) about the dirty little industry secrets of success. (ie: how the sausages are made)

I agree that the sausage maker will never reveal his secrets.... However, the sausage maker down the street will expose the other sausage makers secrets if it makes his product look better.......

Something bothers me though ..... And I am referring to Limerickman and to Flyer ..... I think you have every right to argue your points ... as I have . And I respect your beliefs, even though I do not agree...... But in your posts you seem to have made it clear that in order to win the TDF , you must dope. You seem to think all the TDF winners have doped ....... ..... I admit here that I did not go back and check to see if I am correct on this statement I just wrote, but if I am , let me ask you guys something.........
Why would you follow a sport so tainted ????? I know some things about drug use in sport. I know several weight lifters that are probably current steroid users..... And I love baseball . I recognized that something was wrong back when the McGwire & Sosa home run derby was going on ..... After it was real obvious that 'roids" were playing a major part in baseball , I lost total interest in the annual home run hitters..... [ As far as MLB goes }

If you know that the sport is tainted , and it has been since you started following it , why bother following it?

 

[mjolnir2k]

There a several legal ongoing proceedings in France.

The case to which you incorrectly refer - is a separate CRIMINAL case pertaining to LA.
Wholly different to the CIVIL case taken by LA in respect of the book LA Confidentiel.

Before entering the discussion, junior, you need to know what you're talking
about.
You cannot even distinguish between the cases concerned.

I was referring to the criminal case in which LA was VIGOROUSLY EXAMINED, NOT VIGOROUSLY CROSS EXAMINED..ie. the French authorities had done an extensive (over a year) investigation into doping charges made agoinst LA and despite their best efforts they were unable to charge him with anything.

You need to learn to read what people post JUNIOR!

The CIVIL case was brought BY LA against the author of LA Confidential and that is what I said opened him up to CROSS EXAMINATION by the defense attorney(s). DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

And in respect of the criminal case being investigated by the French prosecutors, no formal proceedings have been entered in to as yet.
Therefore, you are factually incorrect when you state that LA has been vigourously cross examined.

No proceedings have been entered into because their investigation turned up nothing to allow them to proceed..shocking!

Well you should stick to People magazine.
The legal tomes and proceedures are far to advanced for you to read, never mind try to understand !

Yes, yes..you have a dazzling intellect to be sure.

It would help your own credibility to try to see the opposing viewpoint, instead of trying to insult Micron, Flyer or myself.
You don't do yourself any favours resorting to insults.

I see, so I have to bow down and accept your viewpoint in order to be considered credible? Pot calling the kettle black 'eh? Why would you think your view more credible? What gives you the right to judge that? You are talking about an innocent man (yes, it's still innocent until proven guilty..even in te high society that is Europe), yet you claim to have credibility...sorry, but no.

I have no difficulty with your wishing to defend LA but try to do so without
insulting other people.
You only let yourself down.

As you seem to do in every reply to my posts. I guess you can preach but cannot restrain yourself from doing this exact same thing..huh, JUNIOR!

I thought we had agreed to dis-agree, but apparently you can't let it go.

 

[limerickman]

A few posts back , it was posted that Lemond has nothing to gain by an admission of guilt by Lance.
Wrong ..... His financial future is at stake ....... It was in the local paper that Greg was in court fighting a vendor because they dropped Greg's products because they felt Lance's name had more of an impact on the consumers in America........
I am a Greg Lemond fan . But I am a cyclist. Greg Lemond is not a household name in America. In bikeshops yes....Matter of fact , last year on Ragbrai[www.Ragbrai.com] he was suppose to make an apperarence ..... {I did not follow up to see that he did....} However, I work in a pub and I brought it up often that the Ragbrai ride is large enough that even Greg Lemond thinks it is important enough to show up . [One of his vendors had a booth there I think] ..... Most of my customers are college age and I had to explain to them who Greg is ....... [And as a cyclist I was slightly offended]
However, Lance is a household name......
Matter of fact , Lance is larger then the TDF in this country among non-cyclists..... [For this I do envy you Limerickman for living in Europe where people understand what a yellow jersey is ]
We live in the world of capitalism , and I agree with most everyone that the world of professional cycling is driven by capitalism.....
Greg has an expensive lifestyle ....... And everyone is fighting for their share of advertising dollors...... Greg is a businessman. I think most cyclists today can thank him for that . Even Lance..... The wages paid to cyclists are in part because of Lemond...... When a person reads Gregs biography I think that it comes out real clear that Greg's business is 'GREG." I admire that. My favorite cyclists are ones that want to dominate......It's in their personality.
I can't speak for Europe. But in America, we forget old athletes and move on to the newest and bestest .....

before replying - can you do me a favour ?
can you please check your font size before posting, thanks.
Your posts take up too much space and requires lots of scrolling.

leMond won the case that you refer to :
see www.cyclingforums.com.
So there is no financial interest at stake for LeMond in what he said about LA
in a book.

You'd be also surprised at how quickly cyclists are forgotten here in Europe,
Wolfix.
The sport is popular on mainland Europe and it was very popular here in Ireland with Roche/Kelly/Earley and Kimmage in the 1980's.
But that interest hasn;t been sustained - although Mark Scanlon won the U21
world R/R title a few years back.

But I take your central point.
LeMond revolutionised cycling and pay to cyclists.
In his book, Greg says that the Badger was earning $400,000 a year in 1984
and cycling all year round.
LeMond negotiated and received $1,000,000 from La Vie Claire.
Greg makes the point that Hinault, for that workrate, was actually paying his sponsor to cycle, given the high number of races he did.
Whereas Greg used his results to get a better deal (which Hinault never considered doing).
LeMond also cycled throughout the season for $1,000,0000 and managed to win as well.

Greg's book is superb - and he talks about his relationship (or lack of it) with the Badger.
I've been told that Hinault was a tough guy to get along with.

 

[limerickman]

I was referring to the criminal case in which LA was VIGOROUSLY EXAMINED, NOT VIGOROUSLY CROSS EXAMINED..ie. the French authorities had done an extensive (over a year) investigation into doping charges made agoinst LA and despite their best efforts they were unable to charge him with anything.

.

Are you sure about that, Junior ?
An extensive (over one year) investigation, you say ?
Indeed.

Sorry to burst yer bubble (again !) but the most recent investigation in to LA
has barely commenced.
So there has been no "over one year" investigation as you claim.

but don't take my word for it - cause I've no credibility.

French prosecutor Philippe Drouet of the court in Annecy has opened a preliminary hearing examining the entourage of Lance Armstrong and its involvement in doping allegations, according to Thursday's edition of newspapers Aujourd'hui and Le Parisien. The investigation follows a verification of the Paris drug squad, which examined Armstrong's former soigneur Emma O'Reilly amongst other persons.
O'Reilly confirmed her previous statements, which were also published in the book L.A. Confidentiel, alleging that Armstrong used performance-enhancing drugs. The Paris court transferred the file to Annecy in the French Alps because of "geographical competence criteria", as one witness in the case is reported to live in the Haute-Savoie region

this report is posted at 21st January 2005 - not three months ago at
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/jan05/jan21news

Still you know best.

The CIVIL case was brought BY LA against the author of LA Confidential and that is what I said opened him up to CROSS EXAMINATION by the defense attorney(s). DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

No proceedings have been entered into because their investigation turned up nothing to allow them to proceed..shocking!

That's another inaccurate statement - the criminal investigation has barely started !
The civil (libel) proceeding have not started.

Do you understand what you're posting anymore ?

Yes, yes..you have a dazzling intellect to be sure.

I see, so I have to bow down and accept your viewpoint in order to be considered credible? Pot calling the kettle black 'eh? Why would you think your view more credible? What gives you the right to judge that? You are talking about an innocent man (yes, it's still innocent until proven guilty..even in te high society that is Europe), yet you claim to have credibility...sorry, but no.

Now, now.

As I said before, you make inaccurate statements and you refuse to read and perhaps learn about what is going on.
Try reading and learning and then reply.
Don't make blanket statements - what you have said above and throughout
has been inaccurate.
You're only digging yourself in, more deeply each time.

 

[mjolnir2k]

Are you sure about that, Junior ?
An extensive (over one year) investigation, you say ?
Indeed.

Sorry to burst yer bubble (again !) but the most recent investigation in to LA
has barely commenced.
So there has been no "over one year" investigation as you claim.

but don't take my word for it - cause I've no credibility.

You are right..you don't.

Here's what I speak of:

Statement by Tour de France Champion Lance Armstrong in reaction to 1 June, 2002, Le Monde Article regarding the French judicial inquiry of the US Postal Team


Once again, this so-called investigation by the French Judicial System baffles me.

It was with great disappointment that I read Saturday's Le Monde article regarding the "US Postal Affair." I am still confused as to why it has taken nearly two years to validate what I said after first learning of this investigation: the investigators will find nothing because there is nothing to find.

I do not condone the use of banned substances and certainly understand how problematic this issue has become in sport. In my case, it's unfortunate that some people, including a few in the French Judicial System, are seemingly unable to acknowledge that intense and calculated training, not drugs, has been the key to my success on a bicycle.

What more can I do? In Saturday's Le Monde article Mr. Francois Franchy said the investigation has found no evidence of wrongdoing by our team and that there is no reason to put me under further examination. Yet, they will not declare this case closed. They will not clear my name. I find this ridiculous.

As this investigation unfolded, I, along with the United States Postal Service Team, willingly aided the process. Despite feeling that it was nothing more than a witch-hunt, we co-operated out of respect for the Tour de France and the people of France. There wasn't anything to hide. We hoped for a quick resolution to the investigation. But this was not the case, as the French Judicial System dragged their feet rather than quickly testing our samples and releasing the facts -- no positive tests for any banned substance.

As a gesture of my willingness to co-operate, I personally contacted the French Judge overseeing the investigation. Several months after the matter was made public, I wrote to the judge. I said I would be happy to meet anytime, anywhere if it would help the investigation. To this day my letter remains unanswered.

As months and months went by, it became obvious that this investigation was, simply stated, collecting dust. We rescinded our co-operation. It was obvious that the French Judicial System was sitting on their hands.

The nation of France, the Tour de France and the fans of cycling should not have to endure another Tour with this cloud hanging over it. I have searched for a single credible reason as to why this case should remain open - just one -- and I have found none.

As comparison, it usually takes no more than two days to test competitors' samples for banned substances at the Olympic Games. The French Investigators have had nearly two years. Can anyone explain this in a way that makes sense?

As in sport, when you challenge someone and then lose, you should have enough dignity and respect to admit you have lost. For some unknown reason, the French Judicial System refuses to concede.

I appreciate the tremendous support that the people of France have given to me over the years. I consider the Tour de France the greatest athletic event in the world and am honoured to be part of it. But enough is enough. I urge the people of France to do what they can to bring about a closure to this investigation. It is in the best interest of everyone -- except those who have a malicious bias against my teammates and myself.

I consider this issue dead. It is without merit and I will no longer pay attention to it. My steadfast focus is on the upcoming Tour de France.

http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=86159

Imagine that..a French INVESTIGATION of LA and US Postal that DRAGGED ON FOR OVER A YEAR..yet turned up NOTHING!!!

Do you understand what you're posting anymore ?

Always have...DO YOU

Now, now.

As I said before, you make inaccurate statements and you refuse to read and perhaps learn about what is going on.
Try reading and learning and then reply.
Don't make blanket statements - what you have said above and throughout
has been inaccurate.
You're only digging yourself in, more deeply each time.

You're kidding right..aren't you guys the KINGS of blanket statements??? Why don't YOU try and accept a differing viewpoint for once. You have nothing to be certain about..yet you persist in using your labels.

Bah, why should I bother trying to reason with one such as you. Apparently you have so much free time you can post over 3,700 times in just over a year. Must not have much else going on in your life but the net, huh?

Keep up the good work.

 

[limerickman]

You are right..you don't.

Imagine that..a French INVESTIGATION of LA and US Postal that DRAGGED ON FOR OVER A YEAR..yet turned up NOTHING!!!

Always have...DO YOU


You're kidding right..aren't you guys the KINGS of blanket statements??? Why don't YOU try and accept a differing viewpoint for once. You have nothing to be certain about..yet you persist in using your labels.

Bah, why should I bother trying to reason with one such as you. Apparently you have so much free time you can post over 3,700 times in just over a year. Must not have much else going on in your life but the net, huh?

Keep up the good work.

Seems like one investigation closed (2002), and another one has opened
(January 2005).

We'll see how the 2005 investigation progresses - now that they have witnesses and notes from LA Confidentiel to refer to.

 

[Flyer]

I agree that the sausage maker will never reveal his secrets.... However, the sausage maker down the street will expose the other sausage makers secrets if it makes his product look better.......

Comment:
But, not if the slaughtering/grinding and waste disposal process is very similar.

Bad for business. Plus folks who believe the myth of clean sport may not buy your product. Or at a minimum, that is a perceived marketing risk.


Something bothers me though ..... And I am referring to Limerickman and to Flyer ..... I think you have every right to argue your points ... as I have . And I respect your beliefs, even though I do not agree...... But in your posts you seem to have made it clear that in order to win the TDF , you must dope. You seem to think all the TDF winners have doped ....... ..... I admit here that I did not go back and check to see if I am correct on this statement I just wrote, but if I am , let me ask you guys something.........
Why would you follow a sport so tainted ????? I know some things about drug use in sport. I know several weight lifters that are probably current steroid users..... And I love baseball . I recognized that something was wrong back when the McGwire & Sosa home run derby was going on ..... After it was real obvious that 'roids" were playing a major part in baseball , I lost total interest in the annual home run hitters..... [ As far as MLB goes }

Comment:
In baseball---it is the pitcher whom benefits the most from steroids, the slugger next. The other positions benefit too.

The pitcher is the one position most similar to a road cyclist. Endurance, with many power/speed busts. And a changing tempo. Pitchers do not necessarily bulk up quickly. But over many years, they do.

Both Curt Schilling & Roger Clemens are listed at 6'4 and 235 lbs of weight. Same size as slugger Jose Conseco is now, 6'4 240 lbs.


If you know that the sport is tainted , and it has been since you started following it , why bother following it?

What are you suggesting? By the time I learned, gradually over many years that, instead of a few bad apples---the entire upper group was doped---I was a Cat 2, and had already caught the bug.

I love the tactical nature of racing, the changing tempo, the team work, and the adrenalin rush (organic). Why should the brutal reality of a doped profession spoil my fun with this sport?


Answer:
Rather, it is becaue we love the sport so deeply, that we wish to disclose the essence of it. At the local level, it is pure Corinthean and fun for the whole family.

At the top levels, it is a commercial circus, with personalities cast and designed to sell advertising. Many talented riders are never given an opportunity to shine, and instead receive work as domestics. Others, have only the ability for that support work, and accept it as a job. Only a few riders are stars.

But Juniors must be made aware of the false dream. Pro sport is a brutal world, few make any decent money, let alone save any, and all are harmed by drug abuse. It is not a smart career path.

I hope this explanation suffices.

 

[Flyer]

I see, so I have to bow down and accept your viewpoint in order to be considered credible?


Since your education is so lacking, accepting more considered views would be a logical start. But in your case, washing your mouth out with soap is probably the cheekier move.

You imply that certain posters are Pedophiles, you call posters morons and idiots.

You insult people and yet your posts demonstrate a serious lack of historical knowledge and practical understanding of sport in general.

You are have only discredited yourself as a loudmouthed and foulmouthed shill for LA.


Here are some names of professional road cyclists who died prematurely. Maybe you can ponder it?

Vicente Loppez-Carril, age 37
Mard de Meyer, age 32
Geert de Walle, age 24
Bert Oosterbosch, age 32
Joachin Halupczok,age 27
Paul Haghedooren, age 38
Connie Meijer, age 25
Theirry Claveyrolat, age 38
Tim Pauwels, age 22
Gerrie Kneteman, age 53
Marco Pantani, age 34
Tom Simpson, age 27
Jacques Anquetil, age 53
Alexandre Zinoviev, age 43
Stive Vermaut, age 28
Denis Zanette, age 32
Fabrice Salanson, age 23
Marco Ruconi, age 24
Jose Maria Jimenez, age 32
Marco Ceriano, age 16
Michel Zanoli, age 35

There are many more names. Additionally, for each name posted here, there are another 10 of ex-pros with Cancer or other dread ailments.

There is much more the Lance Armstrong's Cancer than you will ever know.

 

[mjolnir2k]

I see, so I have to bow down and accept your viewpoint in order to be considered credible?

Since your education is so lacking, accepting more considered views would be a logical start. But in your case, washing your mouth out with soap is probably the cheekier move.

You imply that certain posters are Pedophiles, you call posters morons and idiots.

You insult people and yet your posts demonstrate a serious lack of historical knowledge and practical understanding of sport in general.

You are have only discredited yourself as a loudmouthed and foulmouthed shill for LA.

There is much more the Lance Armstrong's Cancer than you will ever know.

There comes a point in any argument that it is reduced to a pissing match. We reached that point long ago and nothing constructive can be attained at this point.

You are incorrect in your characterization of me and my comments. I never called you a pedophile, what I suggested was that by your thought process in convicting LA without evidence that the same could be said of any person involved in an occupation that has shown corruption. In your case you claimed to work with kids. I made the comparrison that you could be labelled a pedophile because there have been people who work with children who were convicted of such an offense. Apparently you did not grasp what I was trying to say.

You call me ignorant and foul mouthed, but demonstrate these exact same qualities in your replies to me. Perhaps we should share a bar of soap then?

We don't agree on your methodology of calling LA a cheat. It's just that simple. I don't believe that he is drugged to the gills or has partaken in a secret doping program and you do. I claim you have no evidence and you call me an ignorant rabid fan who has his head in the sand.

I choose to believe that he has worked for his success. you choose to believe that his success is pharmacalogical.

I don't defend him because I idolize him. The only persons I idolize are those I actually know (Parents, Family, Friends). I admire his abilities on a bike and think his story of coming back from cancer a good one. that's about it. I don't know him personally, so I cannot ascribe to wether he is a good and decent persdon outside of that.

What I simply have pointed out PRIOR to the start of the pissing match was that I don't choose to decry a person for things I have no knowledge of and things there is no direct evidence of. Circumstantial evidence is just that.

There is nothing you can say to me that will make me change my mind and conversely there is nothing I can say to you to make you change your mind.

If LA were found to be guilty of these offenses as you claim he would lose all the credibility and respect he has gained, until then I remain a fan and supporter.

Not sure what else there is to say about this. If you choose to continue with this pissing match so be it. I will not respond directly to you or make reference to you in my future posts as there is little reason to do so.

 

[wolfix]

What are you suggesting? By the time I learned, gradually over many years that, instead of a few bad apples---the entire upper group was doped---I was a Cat 2, and had already caught the bug.

I
I hope this explanation suffices.

I was not suggesting anything , I was just looking for your answer and you did a good job answering it ........ Back to the sausage thing . That is the key to this discussion .. "Sausages" ......... It always goes back to the sausage thing ...... Since this has turned into a pisssing match , I believe the only way to solve this thing is having this discussion over sausages and Guiness....

The Lance thing ....... I am very sensitive to the "innocent until proven guilty" thing. I would like to say in "America" that is what we believe in , but it is not true. Like all people and nations we also love to hang people with the media with-out a trial ......I question what the agenda is when people try to make claims that Lance is doping ...... [ This is not an attack on Limerickman & Flyer, but on the people that are quoted in the media}
The drug scandals are tearing the sport down. But until proven guilty, let the riders have their day in the sun ....... Let's don't punish the innocent ones with the behavior of the guilty.

I, like most people that spend time in this forum love cycling ..... I love the TDF... But the rest of the races , even though I follow them on the net, are not all that important to me ..... [ except the World Championships which rank above the TDF .. The Rainbow jersey is a much cooler jersey.} The other races would be important to me if I lived in Europe...... But the local races here are important ......
I think the penalties involving dope are not severe enough. Dopers are cheaters......But I understand the lgal problems of more severe penalties.......

And I can see Limerickman's view on Lance's change from a one dayer to a stage racer...... But, I disagree with him on this subject. I think it has to do with other factors......
* In America, our racing and mindset is not one that developes a rider into TDF material. "Go to Europe young man , go to Europe!"
* Pre- TDF racing career....., Lance had the body of a winner, but did not understand the thinking tactics that make a winner....... "Diamond in the rough" comes to mind.
* Lance showed talent in 1993 when he won the World Championships ..... Something Zabel, S.Kelly, Jan Ullrich {Road], and other great riders also deserved....
* An inside tip ..... Erik is holding back. Come the world's he will blow the door off that sprinting Italian guy and win going away. Cipo got his, now it's time to give it to Zabel.
I have the feeling that some of the "anti-Lance crowd" is that way because he is American ...... We should all rise above that. The TDF & Professional cycling is better as an "international sport", even though I do feel a person should root for his nations teams ......

This is probably my last post as to the "doping thing." The weather is becoming a daily thing and I have some training to do in my preparations for the "2007 Masters Track Season."
And remember ..... "It's all about sausages & Guiness." Ya gotta give that island off the coast of Europe some credit ... It may not produce a lot of cycling stars, but with the production of Guiness, it may have it's priorities in place." And if I ever get to cross the Alantic to do some cycling ..... It will be in Ireland , not in France where wine sipping is considered cultured......
What Ireland is lacking is a world class velodrome complete with a pub in the middle.......Ireland could bring the the Six Day races back the way they should be run ....Smoky velodromes, corrupt officials , smell of gasoline from the moto-bikes, and riders that were made of iron ..... T

 

[Flyer]

Innocent until proven guilty is in full thottle mode in the USA where we have more attorneys than taxi drivers.



This "legal rights concept" enables may people (actually engaged in fraud and other forms of trickery) to continue to collect their so-called entitlements, or endorsement fees.

Their personal reputations are handled by the very same commercial source that endorses them in the first place. No extra work for the star athlete.

Nike has not dropped Barry Bonds or Lance Armstrong as clients. No financial damage done, yet.

Upon contract renewal---perhaps Nike will lower the future contractual fees in light of how these two have conducted themselves in public. Denials and placing blame onto award winning journalists, for example. Suing David Walsh and Emily O'Reily to be very specific. Chasing down and publicly defaming Filippo Simeoni is another example of bad professional behavior. As is blowing snott on him (Ekimov)

These are negotiating points which do hurt LA. But LA does these strange things to himself. It is his responsibilty to account for his actions.

In this forum, we ask why?


If I am the Nike contract rep----I low ball both Armstrong & Bonds-----take it or leave it. Insofar as whether these two are ever publicly exposed as drug cheaters, it matters not for advertising purposes.

These corporate sponsors have proven that they will pay dishonest athletes so long as they deny the crime.

Innocent until proven guilty is merely a financial and legal enabler for "business as usual". Denial is your key to continuing payments.

Simple and neat.

How the sausages are made, MUST remain inside of the Black Box---just as doping must.

 

[wolfix]

As is blowing snott on him (Ekimov)

I always knew there was something about Ekimov that I liked.......

 

[Flyer]

As is blowing snott on him (Ekimov)

I always knew there was something about Ekimov that I liked.......

He's a sausage king extraordinaire. A real class act.

He can pick his nose whilst cursing and swearing too.

He wheels the Texas Long-Horn Salute as his special insult. And it means something very different in Italian.

He deserves his fate.

 

[Flyer]

By Peter Cossins, October 12, 2001.

Grand Tours require doping!

http://eurocyclingnews.rivals.net/default.asp?sid=1041&p=2&stid=8214570

Why would a TDF multi-Championship physician say this if it were not true?

Delgado, Indurain & Armstrong---that's 12 TDF wins and a lot of medical attention.