It's killing me but..........

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle .

Well 2 days in and I haven't really got the hang of this unstructured riding thing -

Don't worry, it'll come back....it's just like riding a bike

...

Something in my head is just making me ride at one effort level - hard. 2.5hrs yesterday and 2hrs today and NP of 225w for both rides, although I chose slightly lumpy routes so the AP is a little lower. Knowing I have about 2hrs somehow makes me want to ride as hard as I can sustain for that period, rather than just going with the flow. I varied the routes and rode some roads I havent been to for a while, so maybe thats part of it, but I think I need to embrace the spirit of 'fartlek' a little better and mix it up a little more. Theres no way I can keep just riding tempo every day for this sort of volume, as it will burn me out anyway, so I need to find a different approach. I ignored the power numbers today, but then just started to focus on speed instead. Maybe I need to put the Garmin in my pocket and not look at it at all?....

Yeah, maybe it's best not to see your power numbers but I wouldn't worry when you're tired you won't push as hard and this should self correct pretty quickly. Hard for competitive folks but there's no real requirement that you go easy, just back off the structure and the going hard on days when you're not motivated or the feeling that you're on a tight training plan. Go with the flow may mean some faster days when you're having fun and easier days or off the bike days when you're not. But that's the big question when you're out there riding 'is this fun?' if not then perhaps it's not the best idea during a post season regrouping period, head for a cafe and chill a bit when a post season fun ride starts to turn into a chore.

-Dave

 

[RapDaddyo]

I'm sure there are many ways to do unstructured training, but what I like to do is to choose routes with several climbs of duration 10-30mins. I always do the climbs at a target power (e.g., FTP), but the rest of the ride I just ignore power and ride at an intensity that requires no concentration. The funny thing is that the segments where I don't concentrate are usually in the SST range. I don't try to stay in the SST range, but I just get too bored at intensities below that.

 

[Bigpikle]

good advice guys - thanks

Its all pretty flat here really and the longest climbs are <5 mins and not really climbs at all, just lumps! Think Spring Classic territory.... That will all change when I got down to the Dordogne as its flat valleys and lovely climbs of up to 15-30 mins, so I'll get a chance to let loose on those and cruise in between!

 

[ira41]

Originally Posted by daveryanwyoming .


Don't worry, it'll come back....it's just like riding a bike



Yeah, maybe it's best not to see your power numbers but I wouldn't worry when you're tired you won't push as hard and this should self correct pretty quickly. Hard for competitive folks but there's no real requirement that you go easy, just back off the structure and the going hard on days when you're not motivated or the feeling that you're on a tight training plan. Go with the flow may mean some faster days when you're having fun and easier days or off the bike days when you're not. But that's the big question when you're out there riding 'is this fun?' if not then perhaps it's not the best idea during a post season regrouping period, head for a cafe and chill a bit when a post season fun ride starts to turn into a chore.

-Dave

great advice, my Joule died after hour 6 on my century, the last two hours were the best two hours, even if the hardest, because I didn tlook down to check anything, just rode. I now plan to take at least one day a week and ride with no display.

 

[bgoetz]

After Sunday I am taking a week basically off and then just going to "ride" my bike for the rest of August. During that time my plan is to not even worry about #s or any type of data. I am still going to collect it for my PMC, but am just going to dump it all in at the end of August. I won't even go through and look at the files, just dumping it for my PMC.

 

[filip5]

Guys, i’ve been riding my indoor trainer for the Australian winter season for quite a lot, but i started to become a bit confused. I do my FTP intervals (or any intervals) in a self selected gear (i use a Tacx 2200) on which i can hold 290W @ 90-95 cadence. Increase in watts is achieved by simply higher cadence. That improves my spinning. Now in discussions with fellow cyclists i was told that in training sessions they use a lower gear in order to up the resistance, but hold the 290w during the interval. That would improve my strength ? It’s kind of hill repeats i would assume ? Best way would be 1 session higher cadence, 1 session lower cadence with same power which in the end would result in increasing the speed – holding a bigger gear on a higher cadence – and FTP ? Any opinions on the validity of this ? I see myself more an endurance style racer instead of big gear, fast, flat races/crits (hot dog circuits) 47 year old male, 1m89, 77kg, FTP 290w, sprints like a brick

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by filip5 .
.... Any opinions on the validity of this ?...

Lot's of folks believe in so called Strength Endurance work or slamming big gears for the supplemental 'strength' benefit. But lot's of folks believe in Santa Claus as well. When it's been looked at closely it just doesn't hold up to inspection. You're basically talking about a load that you can manage to hold several thousand reps and hoping for measurable 'strength' gains. That would be like going into the gym and figuring out what weight you can take into the squat rack to do say 1200 consecutive reps at 60 reps per minute for 20 minutes and hoping to get stronger as a result. The forces involved in big gear slamming are just too small a percentage of one rep map to really do much from a strength building perspective.

Andy Coggan wrote a piece on this a while back. Try Googling 'Andy Coggan Strength Endurance Training' or variations on that phrase but he did a nice job debunking the low gear for strength benefits argument. If your riding will demand power at really low cadences, for instance single gear MTB or cyclocross riding then maybe there's some benefit but if you have a derailleur and appropriate gears there's no really sound reason to do work well below what you'd expect to experience while actually out on the bike. Focus on the power you sustain, not artificially low cadences to produce that power.

Endurance cycling is not a strength limited sport so building strength shouldn't really be a prime focus of your winter training, at least not the endurance base aspects. Strength training for other reasons like sprinting or general health maintenance is a much larger debate but don't do it in hopes of raising your sustainable power or becoming a fitter overall rider able to hold higher speeds or climb faster or drive the paceline faster. For those things focus on raising your sustainable power for durations of interest and mostly raising your FTP.

-Dave

 

[BrianMacDonald]

Originally Posted by Bigpikle .

Well 2 days in and I haven't really got the hang of this unstructured riding thing - it seems that my unstructured riding is simply 'riding pretty hard'...

Something in my head is just making me ride at one effort level - hard. 2.5hrs yesterday and 2hrs today and NP of 225w for both rides, although I chose slightly lumpy routes so the AP is a little lower. Knowing I have about 2hrs somehow makes me want to ride as hard as I can sustain for that period, rather than just going with the flow. I varied the routes and rode some roads I havent been to for a while, so maybe thats part of it, but I think I need to embrace the spirit of 'fartlek' a little better and mix it up a little more. Theres no way I can keep just riding tempo every day for this sort of volume, as it will burn me out anyway, so I need to find a different approach. I ignored the power numbers today, but then just started to focus on speed instead. Maybe I need to put the Garmin in my pocket and not look at it at all?

Anyway, time for a quick thrash early tomorrow morning before 4 days forced off the bike at a manic work meeting in Chicago, and then a few days back home and time for some riding before heading to France again for a couple of weeks of holiday. That might be easier as there are lots of cafes and stunning views to stop at, but equally its roads I know well and climbs I've ridden many times and always want to PB, so I need to change my mindset I suspect.

Another thing you could try would be to scout some new routes. New roads are fun and you are less inclined to hammer because you don't know them.

 

[BrianMacDonald]

on which i can hold 290W @ 90-95 cadence. Increase in watts is achieved by simply higher cadence.

I think you should consider yourself lucky. I ride the trainer at a lower cadence than outside and one of the adjustments/adaptations I have to make in the spring is to the higher cadences on the road. You wont need this.

 

[bgoetz]

Had a hell of a ride tonight, I was able to put out huge long efforts at our club race and just keep going! Everything I am seeing points to a increase in FTP by 10+ watts (my 1hr NP was 17 watts more) and was made of long solid efforts vs. punchy crit type that drive NP up. I had a 20min and a 10min effort avg over FTP that were not strung together. I was then still able to cap things off with a huge 20sec to win, so I still had some in me at the end. So my debate, I am taking some down time to rest up after this weekend, my fear is if I increase my FTP I will just have to lower it again when I get back to training at the start of September. So to raise or not to raise, that is the question?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

...So my debate, I am taking some down time to rest up after this weekend, my fear is if I increase my FTP I will just have to lower it again when I get back to training at the start of September. So to raise or not to raise, that is the question?

If you're pretty confident that your FTP has risen, then raise it in WKO+ or whatever tracking software you use. If it drops again by the time you resume training then drop it again. No sense in intentionally over estimating training stress by leaving your FTP intentionally lower than you believe it to be.

-Dave

 

[jsirabella]

bg, if there is any guy on this thread who deserves an increase in FTP, it is you and I would also vote for bp. The "b"s have it for sure. Both of you guys have had some amazing races and ride results. If you go a bit above and notice the numbers just do not work, bring back to what does. I remember Dave once telling me to put your ftp just a bit higher than what you believe it is so you are training at a higher level and probably make the gains. (side note, hope it was not a mis quote Dave and apologize if was).

For myself a real mixed bag of good as I am not at the numbers I want to be or was but having more fun and took on bigger rides so I believe in time it will all work out for the best. I am real excited about the new saddle. Slowly replacing my really old equipment as the back issues pretty much put everything in storage which had gotten pretty rusty. The CT must be placed at this point as too much duct tape to hold it together and keeps resetting itself mid ride.

Has anyone done that and how long is the warranty on them?

Last I am in the Glen Burnie/Baltimore area and about head out for a couple hour ride around the area till I end up at the harbor and do Otakon at the BCC.

-john

 

[bgoetz]

Yeah, I am consistently normalizing more than my FTP for an hour, last weekend it was more than 90minutes both days. I will stay a bit conservative as I think my training PT reads a touch low. So new FTP is 360, which puts me over 4.5 watt/kg, kinda cool! I think I will go back a couple of weeks with the adjustment as I noticed the increase a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .

felt, based upon all your recent posts I am pretty sure that you are going to be fine with next week's ride.

-john

Ended up going solo since my friend picked a location and route that did not suit my goals. I really wanted to get the TT bike out and just sit in a steady pace. I am still coming up out of a slump with an intentional slow ramp rate. I never adjusted my FTP at the point of the injury and reduction in training time. Being that I am too lazy to change all the settings in the each Garmin Edge I just left everything alone including WKO and the other programs with the hope of climbing back to that FTP. I am closing in on it - slowly.

Today I had an opportunity to break the 80 mile route/time into 60 minute laps and this will help me with comparisons over the weeks to come as I hope to return back to my former fitness and endurance. I am still fizzling in those last laps giving me an idea of how far off I am compared to efforts before the injury. The goal today was not pushing hard. I get to do that during the weekday L4 intervals. Today was just a lower watt endurance ride. Before the injury I was closing in on doing this 80 mile course in 4 hours. So I hope in the weeks to come and as I get closer to my FTP I will see the IF at 0.8 on all of the laps.

Lap 1: Time 60 minutes, Distance 18.9 miles, Avg Speed 18.9 mph, IF 0.75
Lap 2: Time 60 minutes, Distance 18.0 miles, Avg Speed 18.0 mph, IF 0.75
Lap 3: Time 60 minutes, Distance 17.8 miles, Avg Speed 17.8 mph, IF 0.67
Lap 4: Time 60 minutes, Distance 16.3 miles, Avg Speed 16.3 mph, IF 0.66
Lap 5: Time 20 minutes, Distance 5.6 miles, Avg Speed 17.0 mph, IF 0.55

Originally Posted by bgoetz .

So new FTP is 360, which puts me over 4.5 watt/kg, kinda cool!

If I had that sort of power available I would not use it in a proper manner. If one could relate it to Super Hero power or Super Villain power I would end up using to torment the community. That must be why I have a very low FTP since I would not be able to refrain from using that power in a improper and uncivilized manner.

Nice work Bg!!

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .


If I had that sort of power available I would not use it in a proper manner.

Tell me about it! ;-)

 

[bgoetz]

Thanks guys, unfortunately I am on the receiving end quite often in all of my races. Tomorrow may be my day though, the race really suites me. I have taken my 29er to fast group rides before and been the last one standing though

 

[Felt_Rider]

It sure feels good to have things start getting back into the groove, both in having a game plan and start feeling like things are on an upward trend for progress. I've been training a very long time in sports so I fully understand how important it is to stick with it through weeks of not seeing or feeling progress. When you finally start breaking through the barrier it is a good feeling no matter how many years that have been dedicated. Over 30 years dedicated to staying fit and it never gets old. Love it!!

Training is challenging, frustrating at times but I find that it is always rewarding.
That's why many of us stick with it regardless of genetics or level of performance.

 

[bgoetz]

I have a 18 mile TT tomorrow on a std. Road bike. I have done some short ones and typically just lock into the drops due to the violent nature, but I am wondering if I should not try to hang my arms over the bars tomorrow. Any suggestions?

 

[swampy1970]

I have a 18 mile TT tomorrow on a std. Road bike. I have done some short ones and typically just lock into the drops due to the violent nature, but I am wondering if I should not try to hang my arms over the bars tomorrow. Any suggestions?

If you haven't done the "dangle the monkey arms" over the bars before, I wouldn't do it in a TT for your first attempt... But hey, having your arms slip on the bars and planting your nose in the stem always makes for an interesting TT. If you've mastered the art of that and have the core strength to do it then to for it - otherwise make De Vlaeminck and stay low and smash the pedals hard.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .


If you haven't done the "dangle the monkey arms" over the bars before, I wouldn't do it in a TT for your first attempt

I have tried doing this on a long solo out and back route that had a sustained headwind on the return hoping to get a little lower to take less of a thrashing. I just could not get the hang of it. I've probably attempted at least 5 times on solo training rides.

I may give it some more practice in the future.