It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    3
    Btw, it's impossible to cycle up Norikura much before July because of a little snow on the road. (see pic):rolleyes:
     

    Attached Files:



  2. kopride

    kopride Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    9
    I'd love to see a Strava or other files showing a 250FTP at 74. Very impressive. Haven't the folks who followed this thread from the beginning been through this before? It would be great to see that data to help other folks in their 8th decade accomplish power levels that folks in their 5 decade struggle mightily to accomplish. Absent that data, it might place an unrealistic expectation of anybody getting into cycling at a later stage based upon somebody's attention getting bid.

    Not trying to be hostile. But I was around during the lengthy posts about your heroic quest to get to 300 on a gym erg that was apparently overestimating power. A CT will generate lots of files that are not really difficult to download. I'm not good about regularly downloading my rides on Strava; but for someone looking for realistic data for a rider approaching 50, I could probably share some. By way of example, my FTP is probably about 255 or so right now, and I have some top five age group (49) finishes for some of the more popular hills around my regular riding loops. Hard to believe that someone who tracks data so carefully like you; has virtually no files to show us how you did it.
     
  3. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hi Kopride, good to see a bit of healthy scepticism. First I would like to correct you on one point. In my post I didn't say I had an FTP of 250W, I said I was heading towards 250W. An FTP of 250W being the first target.
    In answer to your question about how I train, here goes with the following:

    When I began my comeback, I found 165 W to be a comfortable starting point. So did 30 minutes at 165 W, and after a five minute rest did 175 W for 10 minutes.
    So twice a week I will do 20 to 30 minutes at the lower wattage and 6 to 10 minutes at the higher wattage depending on how I feel. If by the second session I feel comfortable, the following week I will up it by 10W. If not I will continue with the same wattage for another week.r
    I must point out, that so as not to repeat the fiasco earlier in this thread where I was grinding out 400 W at very low speed. (The CT manual states one should not go below 14 mph, a sentence I completely missed), I now stay in the same gear riding at 17.5 to 20+ mph. This gives me a healthy cadence I find.

    I don't know if it's possible again, but I intend to strive towards an FTP of 300 plus watts.
    How is that possible I hear you say? Well, as has been mentioned many times in this thread by Rapdaddyo etal, it depends on your genetic make up. You have to select carefully when choosing your father.
    My father was training boxers and doing sports seven days a week until the age of 85. Then my mother died and he gave up completely and soon followed her. I will never forget one of his last utterances, "I loved your mother for 50 years".
    Yes, life is very unfair, if you don't have the right genes, you can train until you're blue in the face and you will never do 300 W. I think it was Rapdaddyo who said, only 2% of the cycling fraternity are capable of churning out 300 W.
    As I said earlier in this thread, I have an iMac so cannot hook up the CT to the computer and consequently cannot produce any charts. Later on this year I might invest in a cheap secondhand PC and produce some charts for your perusal.

    PS. Will not do a full one hour FTP test until after Norikura. Btw, I shall be climbing with three young bucks, one of whom is/was a semi-pro. Should be a good test.
     
  4. kopride

    kopride Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    9
    Keep calling me skeptical. There are multiple ways to download CT data to mac compatible files. Indeed, having invested so much in a CT, it is hard to believe that someone would not have a computer to store the data. Like I said, I was here during your last epic quest, which ultimately was highly suspect. A cell phone with Strava can generate ride files that estimate power.

    Again, there are lots of people who come on these forums looking for real advice and experience. This thread has lots of good advice. I'm not sure that it needs fantasy.

    I would think the fraternity of 74 year old cyclists with FTPs approaching 300, who aren't well established racers on the international master's circuit, would be zero. The 74 year old riders hitting (approaching) 250 FTP on a CT as part of some informal home training program where data is not stored in any readily accessible file, that get's interrupted by periodic setbacks and comebacks, would be zero as well.

    We've been through this before with you on this thread; and the slogging at 400W story at low speed is very incredible, meaning lacking in credibility. Absent good ride files that we can look at, and given your past history of apparently being incapable of using your own computrainer properly, maybe you should be a more cautious discussing watts at all? After all, maybe there is some technological fault that is explaining what appears to be very exceptional power figures for a 74 year old rider with no real verifiable experience. If there is a 74 year old rider who has an FTP of 180, I think that's darn respectable.
     
  5. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    3
    All I can say is, you are in for a big shock. Your criticism has in fact inspired me to make an even greater effort. I have no desire to expend my energy arguing the toss with you. I will not post again now until after the Norikura climb in August. Later on I will produce the evidence you desire, and you can apologise for doubting me then.
    Tyson
     
  6. kopride

    kopride Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    9
    I'd love to be shocked. If I recall, you used to talk about the Lake Biwa ride: now I guess it's the Norikura Mt climb. Are we going to see a wko or CT file? Or are we just going to get another stirring report of you beating racers 30 years younger and crushing the bike shop club riders? Everybody in Japan has a cell phone. Download Strava on your cell and we can all view your climb. A GPS enabled head unit is pretty cheap nowadays. Suffice it to say that I won't be holding my breath waiting for data or verifiable ride results. I haven't downloaded files off my Garmin for some time, but mine takes the power readings right off my power tap. Even if you don't have a powerta-, Strava will estimate power based upon weight and elevation changes. It's reasonably accurate over a long ride.

    If you scroll back to pg 144-48, you will get an idea why I'm skeptical. Is your CT working now, or still recording 30 minute efforts at 400 W? Still waiting for those files. BTW, I have a Mac and it will take files from any source.
     
  7. dhk2

    dhk2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,187
    Likes Received:
    33
    Tyson, I'm glad you're back training and have a goal this summer. But rather than continuing to quote unbelievable numbers from your home trainer here, why not just focus on riding outside and enjoying your bike?

    Like kopride, I'm also confident that your power numbers from the home trainer aren't real. If you want to get a better estimate of your FTP, just go out on the road some nice day and do an hour TT effort. See how many miles you cover, and then let some of us here estimate your real power output. Do an out-and-back or fairly-flat loop on a calm day to minimize the effects of elevation change and winds. If you can cover 20 miles or more in an hour, I'd say that would be very impressive for a 74 year old rider, indicating something around 200W or higher.

    Or, even more accurate if you have long climbs would be to do a sustained climb on a known hill (known % gradient and total elevation gain). Your wattage can be estimated pretty well from your vertical rate of climb (knowing the weight of your body and bike). If your total weight is say 90kg, and you can climb at a sustained 1 foot/second vertical rate, that would require about 300W. EG, my home hill has a total gain of 180 vertical feet, with an average grade of 10% (14% on the steep parts). If I climb this hill in 3 mins (going all out), I'm climbing at 1 foot/sec. This is going all-out for me.....around 300W for 3 minutes would be my best performance on a peak day of the season. Usually I can only hold that effort for a minute or two and then am forced to back off.....out of breath and legs screaming to stop.

    But talking about FTP-type (one hour) efforts, I'm only good for less than 1/2 that rate of climb.....around 100-150W. I enjoy going hard in all-out hill efforts and sprints, but have learned to stay within my aerobic FTP on the long mountain rides where maybe 5 or 6 K feet of total climbing is required.
     
  8. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes Received:
    30
    Welcome back, Tyson. Glad to see you're getting back to some serious training, and that you have a specific goal (Nokimura). As to those skeptical that a 74-year-old can get to 250-300W, just ignore them. I was off my bike for about a year due to a project, but I have just started to train again and plan to regain 300W FTP in time for the Mt. Charleston hillclimb this coming October. When I reach my goal, I'll be happy to post my data. In the meantime, attached is a writeup I did about 10 years ago to describe my approach to an FTP build phase. Granted, I was only 63 at the time. Hopefully, I can do it again now.

    BTW, as to the accuracy of the CT, I have been riding a CT for about 10 years, and have found it to be very accurate (e.g., +/- 5W) compared with my PowerTap hub, assuming you do the recommended CT calibration procedure.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. divinemaredi

    divinemaredi Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2016
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    1
    Interesting, very good progress mate, and motivating indeed...I guess I also have to up my game! :)
     
  10. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    3
    Hi PauI. I wasn't going to post again until after the Norikura climb, however, how can I possibly ignore the encouragement expressed by a 73/74 year old peer - the one and only Rapdaddyo!
    I detected more than a smidgen of sour grapes in the posts above. Disparagement due to an unattainable goal possibly?
    An FTP of 300W in time for the Mt. Charleston race in October sounds ambitious, but if anyone can achieve it, you can. As for the accuracy of the Computrainer, I recall the early days in this forum where the gym bike and the CT wattage was as near as damn it identical.
    And yes, I religiously follow the CT manual instructions now. As I stated in an earlier post, I have selected gearing which allows me to maintain a good cadence at 18-20 plus mph. I set the press-on force at just above 200, clean the "training tyre" before each session and pump it up to its max of 120 psi.
    I'm definitely getting stronger by the week as confirmed by my Sunday course on the road.
    Rather than ignore the negative comments in the above posts, I've taken them on board, keeping them in mind to spur me on. A case of, " I'll show the doubting Thomas' ".

    A GENUINE FTP OF 250WATTS IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER. AN FTP OF 300WATTS??? Who knows, only time will tell.

    Thanks for the attachment Paul, looks like a good nighttime read.
     
  11. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    3
    Paul I've read through your attachment and your last two paragraphs shown below seem to precisely sum up of my approach to building up my FTP. Thanks I'll stick at it.

    I am never obsessed with measuring my FTP during a build phase because I don’t have to measure my fitness to know that I am increasing my fitness.
    During a build phase, I go more by how easy it is to complete my L4 efforts than formal testing. When a 30-40 minute L4 effort seems too easy, I increase my intensity by 10-20 watts.

    Cheers! Tyson
     
  12. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes Received:
    30
    Right. In another document, I describe my approach to testing during a build phase like this:

    Note that during this Early Phase in the training cycle, I don’t look for improvements in my aerobic power every week or even every month. My fitness seems to improve in a stair-step pattern. I will go for several weeks with no apparent improvement and then will be able to increase my training intensity by 10-20 watts, seemingly overnight. Clearly, the adaptations don’t occur overnight and, as I said above, I don’t feel the need to establish fresh maximum performance benchmarks frequently. I’m just not obsessed with measuring my progress because I know from years of experience that the adaptations are occurring. So, I just trust in the process and keep training. It’s analogous to boiling water. I know that if I apply high heat to a kettle, the water will boil in about 5 minutes. So, I can turn the heat on high and go do something else for 5 minutes and the water will be boiling. I don’t need to measure the progressively increasing temperature every minute.
     
  13. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    3
    Love the analogy, and it is always worth remembering that a watched kettle never boils, or at least not for what seems an age. :)
     
  14. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    3
    Well, finally got to climb Norikura Skyline ( The highest mountain road in Japan). It was quite a bit easier than the climb from the other side which I did two years ago. Although I didn't have the anticipated iFTP, I'm pleased to say I was only overtaken by one other cyclist, and believe me she was motoring . I reckon her FTP was somewhere in the upper 200 watts.
    I passed one guy with all the right muscles and good looking bike pushing his bike up . In fact on my way down much later, he was still walking up. He would've been much better turning around and going back down because after all he couldn't say he had cycled to the top. On my way down I saw dozens of cyclists that seemed to be verging on collapse.
    They really shouldn't have been out there with their level of fitness .

    Finally I would like to please the sceptics above. Yes, it is getting somewhat harder to increase my FTP than it was at the beginning of this thread. 250W is further around the corner than I planned. Will post an update at a later date.
    I wonder how Rapdaddyu is progressing with his goal of a 300W FTP by October. If I'm not mistaken, he is the same age as me.
    Ciao
    Tyson
     
    #7114 Sillyoldtwit, Sep 4, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  15. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes Received:
    30
    Sounds as though you're making good progress. Keep it up.

    My training was interrupted in the middle of the summer, so I'm now back on a good track but I lost too much time off the bike to be ready for this year's Mt Charleston hill climb. I started on May 29 and was able to log ~6 hrs/wk at L4 and above until July 5, then work interfered and I was off my bike until August 21. I'm back to a regular training schedule, but still logging only ~6 hrs/wk at L4+. I need to get up to ~12 hrs/wk at L4+ before I will begin to see real progress. I don't think I will be race-fit until near the end of the year and may have to find an alternative event around the end of the year, but most of the great events out here are in the summer or fall. Nonetheless, when I get fit I will go out and climb Mt. Charleston solo to benchmark my fitness. It's still a great ride, timing chips or not.
     
  16. Sillyoldtwit

    Sillyoldtwit Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    3
    My daughter goes to university from next April, so apart from possibly not having the necessary filthy lucre, I have no excuse for not entering the Mt. Charleston event (in October ?). My son, married to an American lives in LA and I could kill 2 birds with one stone next October. Haven't seen my grandchildren in the flesh as yet.
    Anyway, mustn't get ahead of myself. Hopefully there won't be any setbacks and I can achieve an FTP which will allow me to finish no more than 20 minutes behind the mighty Rapdaddyo.

    Tyson
     
  17. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,075
    Likes Received:
    30
    Great! Unfortunately, the final date for Mt. Charleston doesn't get set until mid- to late-summer. It used to be right around Labor Day, which was a bitch because we still have 100+ degree days through Labor Day. But, a few years ago they moved it back to late September or early October. This year it is Sept. 24, the Saturday after Interbike. I much prefer the new schedule because I really suffer in the heat. So, mark your calendar for the period from Sept 23 to Oct 7, 2017.
     
  18. kopride

    kopride Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2006
    Messages:
    1,003
    Likes Received:
    9
    Sounds like those big events (Norikura Skyline) we were waiting for data files have occurred. SOT, how 'bout posting those STRAVA links for those epic rides up the top of the mountain? I'd love to see a data file for a 74 year old man averaging 250 watts. It would give me hope for the future. And I say this with both skepticism and hopefulness since we are all going to get there in the future and would like to see how things work out.
     
  19. workingguy

    workingguy Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    12
    In 2010 at 42, I was easily doing 2x20s at 220-230W. Now after 6 years off the bike I struggle to maintain 180W, up from 165W a month ago. I don't remember it being this hard to move into the 200W range. But now I'm also 4kg heavier so that requires 15 more watts than before (to be at the same W/kg ratio) necessary to "not be dropped" in a race. Guess that happens with age. I probably won't do as well at 74...
     
  20. workingguy

    workingguy Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    12
    Back in the day RapDaddyo and Sillyoldtwit were my inspiration. I would have never been able to put the hurt on the field if it weren't for the FTP. I am now starting to get motivated again.
     
Loading...

Share This Page

Loading...