Letter from DueSouth Railways to Peter Clinch



Steven wrote:
>
> Just because you can add and remove wheels without getting your hands
> dirty doesn't mean that everyone, or even most people can.
>


I look forward to the introduction of hand inspections and shoe
inspections for all people boarding trains because I have seen some
really filthy hands and shoes on board and they did not belong to
cyclists.



--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
Steven wrote:

> The problem with Peter's ill though out scheme is that it would just about
> *guarantee* that you would get a sucession of people bringing tandems and
> removing the wheels so that they would fit the specified maximum length.


Oh, of course it would. There are hundreds of thousands of them in
everyday use in the UK, after all.

Services like GNER which run guards' vans accept tandems anyway, so
according to your "argument" that must "just about *guarantee*"
that GNER would get a sucession of people bringing tandems for
transport. Oddly, despite GNER being my local Inter City TOC, I
don't recall seeing any tandems either on their services or being
queued up for them.

As you've often pointed out, cyclists with cycles are a small
minority of train users. Tandemists are a very small minority of
cyclists, so the magnitude of the "problem", by your own arguments,
will be about, oooh, nothing.

There isn't currently a succession of conventional cycle users
lining up for trains, events like LBR excepted, so where are these
reams of tandems going to appear from? And if it's still too long
for the load space sans front wheel it still won't fit, so it still
fails. How do you know if it fits? Because if all of it is inside
the designated area, then it fits. No measurement required.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:32:17 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email protected]>
wrote:

>If anyone made an ass of themselves it would be DueSouth's staff
>with their decades of experience who can't even recognise their own
>carriages and spent some time commenting on a proposal that didn't
>apply to them.
>

God, what a weasel!

One of the most awkward facets about your prosecution of this argument is you
leaping about from one company to another, from the general to the specific,
from tandems to the LBR, and then, in an attempt to disguise your lack of a
case, getting all indignat and making out you were talking about something else
all along.

>> Since this was pointed out to you you you have done nothing but throw general
>> insults around.

>
>What I've done is pointed out where I started (that would be
>Scotrail's stated policy) and what I was setting out to
>demonstrate. If it's really *so* stupid then you shouldn't have
>any trouble at all shotting it down in flames from the point of
>view of Scotrail stock, with a designated "facilities area" in
>which bikes are stored. Can you do that? Or will you just try and
>weasel your way out of it by pretending I was talking about
>something different?


You claimed you could come up with a workable rule for tandems. True you quoted
Scotrail's rule, but you never said that *your* rule was limited to Scotrail.

Now that you have been comprehensively shown to be wrong, you're trying to
change the rules.

Nice try, but no cigar.

>> You haven't explained how the regulation you proposed could be enforced on
>> rolling stock where cycles travel in coach vestibules without measuring the
>> bikes.

>
>But since I'm only working from Scotrail's stock,


Weasel, weasel, weasel.

>
>> That is one of the main reasons your simplstic and ill thought out proposal is
>> just that: simplstic and ill thought out.

>
>Simple, yes, but not simplistic. You still haven't caught on to
>the idea that you don't need to measure something to see if it fits
>in a space. Can I fit this chocolate bar in my mouth? I don't
>know... will I have to measure my mouth and the chocolate bar to be
>sure, or can I just try putting it in? That may be too simple for
>you, because you're so insistent that everything is complicated,
>but it needn't be so.


Well, trying to fit it in the space *is* measuring it!

I can imagine Scotrails response would be something along the lines of:

Dear Mr Clinch

We cannot allow conductors to spend valuable time at station stops attempting to
fit cycles that may be too large into the available accomodation. They would
need to be measured first. We gather the impracticality of that solution has
been explained carefully to you by our colleagues at DueSouth.

We need to be able to know whether or not a cycle will fit on the train before
the conductor accepts it for entraining.

We could also not countenance the delays that would inevitably be involved when
a cycle did not fit the available space and the owner proceeded to dismantle it
whilst the train waited.

Thank you for your interest and please contact us if you have any further
suggestions.

Yours, etc
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:35:05 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

>Steven wrote:
>>
>> We did hear you, but you didn't say anything new.
>>
>> You made an ass of yourself by trying to get smart using the wrong
>> type of rolling stock to respond to the objections raised.
>>

>
>Sigh. It seems the railways are still in the era of the customers are
>a nuisance to be tolerated only if they have to be. What would you
>think if the shop responded to your request to buy something with a
>diatribe about how you didn't understand the problems they had with
>stock control or a hotel told you your prebooked room was taken and not
>that thye were sorry but that you did not understand how difficult load
>management was for them? Because that's exactly how you are reacting.
>Your problems are your problems and should not become your customers
>problems. No wonder the railways have such a dreadful reputation in the UK.


OK, Mr smartarse.

You try and turn up at a hotel in Edinburgh and get a room at the height of the
Edinburgh festival.

Trying to equate handling a sudden hundredfold increase in the number of cycles
that people wish to carry is *not* the same thing considering a hotel that
cannot simply keep track of its rooms.

It would be fairer to equate it to a hotel with 100 rooms being expected to
handle 3000 guests one evening, and when they quite reasonably said they
couldn't do it, whining on and on about why couldn't they hire tents and set
them up.

Like Peter, you need to get over yourself.

Cycles are *not* a very important market sector for the railways, but they do
make efforts to accomodate them where possible.

If they get arrogant tossers continually whining about those arrangements they
may decide that it's simpler just to say "no bikes" as they are, currently,
quite entitled to do.

The world does *not* owe cyclists a free ride!

(Which is what they are getting for their bikes at the moment).
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:37:37 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

>Steven wrote:
>>
>> Just because you can add and remove wheels without getting your hands
>> dirty doesn't mean that everyone, or even most people can.
>>

>
>I look forward to the introduction of hand inspections and shoe
>inspections for all people boarding trains


That is, I have to say, a very childish response.

The railway company will look at potential problems and it may (or may not)
decide that encouraging a type of passenger that is likely to board the train
with greasy bike components and greasy hands is not something that is in the
best interests of providing a pleasant service to their core customers.

>because I have seen some
>really filthy hands and shoes on board and they did not belong to
>cyclists.


How do you know ;-)
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:43:56 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Oh, of course it would. There are hundreds of thousands of them in
>everyday use in the UK, after all.
>
>Services like GNER which run guards' vans accept tandems anyway, so
>according to your "argument" that must "just about *guarantee*"
>that GNER would get a sucession of people bringing tandems for
>transport. Oddly, despite GNER being my local Inter City TOC, I
>don't recall seeing any tandems either on their services or being
>queued up for them.


>As you've often pointed out, cyclists with cycles are a small
>minority of train users. Tandemists are a very small minority of
>cyclists, so the magnitude of the "problem", by your own arguments,
>will be about, oooh, nothing.


So why are you making such a God awefull fuss about them?

A while back it was the most egregious sin in the book that your mate wasn't
allowed on with his tandem when *theoretically*, you could have taken a bigger
bike on.

Now, you're trying to prosecute your case on the basis that there are hardly any
people wihing to take tandems on trains.

Make your bloody mind up.

>There isn't currently a succession of conventional cycle users
>lining up for trains, events like LBR excepted, so where are these
>reams of tandems going to appear from?


This is yet another example of your changing the parameters of the discussion
when you are clearly beaten.

First not allowing tandems was such a problem that you wanted to rewrite the
rules.

When it's pointed out that one of the reasons the railway companies might not
want to encourage tandems is that the corollaries of increased tandem traffic
might cause problems, you suddenly start arguing that there are hardly any
anyway.

Why on earth should a railway company waste time and money worrying about a
level of inconvenience that you yourself have just stated is "oooh, nothing".
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:43:56 +0100 someone who may be Peter Clinch
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>There isn't currently a succession of conventional cycle users
>lining up for trains, events like LBR excepted, so where are these
>reams of tandems going to appear from? And if it's still too long
>for the load space sans front wheel it still won't fit, so it still
>fails. How do you know if it fits? Because if all of it is inside
>the designated area, then it fits. No measurement required.


The trolls are trying to make fun of your idea. However, it remains
a sensible and well thought out idea.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.
 
Steven wrote:

> So why are you making such a God awefull fuss about them?


I used them as an illustration of a TOC policy not being as
brilliant as "decades of experience" might suggest.

> A while back it was the most egregious sin in the book that your mate wasn't
> allowed on with his tandem when *theoretically*, you could have taken a bigger
> bike on.
>
> Now, you're trying to prosecute your case on the basis that there are hardly any
> people wihing to take tandems on trains.
>
> Make your bloody mind up.


Temper temper. You're mixing up the point, which is that
consistent and easily understandable rules are in the TOC's
interest as well as the majority of their customers, with what may
or may not be good for me and my friends as individuals.

> This is yet another example of your changing the parameters of the discussion
> when you are clearly beaten.


Errr, no. It's me choosing the best illustration I can find from a
range of examples.

> First not allowing tandems was such a problem that you wanted to rewrite the
> rules.


Actually, it was inconsistency that was the problem. Tandem in
cardboard wrapping, good, tandem without, bad. Compact tandem that
takes up less space than 2 solos bad, 2 solos (of any length) good.
It's inconsistent. My rewrite isn't something I particularly
*want* as I don't have a tandem and I do have outsize solos, but it
would be more sensible for the TOC in question and a greater number
of their customers. That's what their "decades of experience" is
meant to optimise, but as I've pointed out with examples, it doesn't.

> When it's pointed out that one of the reasons the railway companies might not
> want to encourage tandems is that the corollaries of increased tandem traffic
> might cause problems, you suddenly start arguing that there are hardly any
> anyway.


Well, there are hardly any anyway. But there are an increasing
number of outsize solos which the current rules allow, even if they
should be discouraged for the sdame reasons as the tandems.

> Why on earth should a railway company waste time and money worrying about a
> level of inconvenience that you yourself have just stated is "oooh, nothing".


If the inconvenience is "oooh, nothing", then that includes the
effect on the TOC. So it hardly affects them in day to day
operations but gives them a few happier passengers and lots of
opportunity to say what nice, cycle friendly people they are, which
is currently perceived as a Good Thing.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Steven wrote:

> One of the most awkward facets about your prosecution of this argument is you
> leaping about from one company to another, from the general to the specific,
> from tandems to the LBR, and then, in an attempt to disguise your lack of a
> case, getting all indignat and making out you were talking about something else
> all along.


I have clearly said what I'm talking about whenerver I'm talking
about it. I have jumped about so as to provide a better range of
examples. Do keep up at the back!

> You claimed you could come up with a workable rule for tandems. True you quoted
> Scotrail's rule, but you never said that *your* rule was limited to Scotrail.


But each TOC has different rules that reflect their different
operating conditions, as you pointed out. So clearly my rule is
not intended to cover *all* possible conditions, but only those of
the company whose rule I sought to revise.

> Now that you have been comprehensively shown to be wrong, you're trying to
> change the rules.


Says the man changing the rules. Like I said, if my idea is so
stupid it should be easy for you to shoot it down from the point of
view of Scotrail's stock and their operating conditions. If you
cannot do that then I have improved a TOC rule *without* decades of
experience running a TOC, but rather than argue the points you just
move the goalposts. Or rather, you changed the rules.

Here are the rules: you shoot it down from Scotrail's POV of stock
and conditions. If it's as dumb as you say, that should be easy.

>>But since I'm only working from Scotrail's stock,


> Weasel, weasel, weasel.


No, I'm doing what I said I would do. You haven't done what you
said you'd do, which was demonstrate all the problems why it would
never work. You should be able to do that from a Scotrail
perspective if it's as dumb as you say.

> Well, trying to fit it in the space *is* measuring it!


And is it hard? Does it leave all sorts of possibilities for
misinterpretation? Can I do try it myself, or do I need a TOC
guard to see if it goes in?

> I can imagine Scotrails response would be something along the lines of:
>
> Dear Mr Clinch
>
> We cannot allow conductors to spend valuable time at station stops attempting to
> fit cycles that may be too large into the available accomodation. They would
> need to be measured first. We gather the impracticality of that solution has
> been explained carefully to you by our colleagues at DueSouth.


Deary, deary me. As I have pointed out, this is the situation that
*currently exists* with unconventional solo cycles, so it isn't
actually anything new. Yet they are allowed, even though they
might take up more space than a tandem, especially a compact tandem

> We need to be able to know whether or not a cycle will fit on the train before
> the conductor accepts it for entraining.


That's odd, because they don't know that about outsize solo bikes,
yet they're still allowed to go on. Even ones which are
*obviously* bigger than a compact tandem!

> Thank you for your interest and please contact us if you have any further
> suggestions.


I suggest you start using staff with an IQ that might possibly be
in 3 figures who didn't sepnd their time thinking up reasons why
things can't be done *that already are done*. That way, you might
make life better for both yourselves and your passengers.

yours, etc.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:09:09 GMT, Steven wrote:

> Dear Mr Clinch
>
> Thank you for your letter. We always appreciate it when our customers write to
> us, and we are always looking for ways we can improve our service.
>


I find it very admirable that the company has given your idea such thorough
consideration and entered into such detailed correspondence with you.

--
***My real address is m/ike at u/nmusic d/ot co dot u/k (removing /s)
np:
http://www.unmusic.co.uk
http://www.unmusic.co.uk/amh-s-faq.html - alt.music.home-studio FAQ
http://www.unmusic.co.uk/wrap.php?file=vhs.html - vhs purchase log.
 
Steven wrote:
>
> The railway company will look at potential problems and it may (or may not)
> decide that encouraging a type of passenger that is likely to board the train
> with greasy bike components and greasy hands is not something that is in the
> best interests of providing a pleasant service to their core customers.


Once again your "can't do" attitude gets in the way of solving problems.
My basic idea is that cycles should go on according to size, not
things only indirectly connected such as number of seats or wheels. The
thing about removing wheels etc. was in the fine print and we can change
the fine print without changing the basic, fundamental idea or the
reasoning behind it. So rather than say, "we can't have people removing
things, throw the whole idea out as unworkable", we say "we can't have
people removing things, change the fine print to say that". And that
way we still get to carry compact tandems, which don't obstruct people,
or semi-folding trikes a GT3, which wouldn't obstruct people, and we
don't carry outsize solos like an 8 Freight or Hase Tagun that may well
obstruct people. And no greasy parts more than we have at present. So
we end up with a system that is fairer for all

Your other hang up about my idea was some nonsense that every cycle has
to be measured. I'm still not at all sure why, but let's look at a
similar case. Airline carry-on has to fit under the seat in front or in
the overhead lockers. People take all sorts of things on and some,
inevitably, don't fit, resulting in delays as it is sent to the hold.
To solve this, do the airline companies throw up their hands and say "no
carry on baggage, it can cause delays!"? Do they specify a restrictive
range of luggage based on overall type? Do they publish a list of bags
they have individually measured (or read the measurements from a spec
sheet) that are approved? Or perhaps they put a box by the checkout
line with a notice that says "if your bag fits in here and weighs less
than x Kg it is acceptable as hand luggage". The latter, IME, so how
about transferring that scheme to what we're working on? If we paint a
box on the platform of the same size as our loadspace dimensions and put
up a notice saying "if your cycle fits in this box it is eligible be
carried" then people can check it in seconds if they haven't already
done it at home, working from the published figures. Put a hard stand
at each end and it's even more black and white what will fit.

These things only took a few seconds thought on top of the few seconds
the original took, but you are so determined to throw out *anything* I
say and your mind is so heavily set on saying "No!" that such simple
refinements are beyond you.

Ultimately a scheme along these lines could give a consistent and
workable approach to *any* item, not just cycles, which could only be a
good thing for the TOCs. But it doesn't have to do that, it's just it's
a flexible, simple and open scheme that adapts easily that *can* help
give a consistent approach to anything carried on. At present on
Scotrail there's guaranteed space for 2 bikes, but why should bikes have
precedence over, say, large flatpack wardrobes? Or stuffed hippopotami?
My scheme enables you to get rid of that bias, if you want, by
treating things purely according to size rather than by function, which
is irrelevant to other passengers. Or if cycles are considered worth
prioritising (as they are at present, with that guaranteed 2 spaces),
that's no problem either.

You clearly have a working imagination, or you wouldn't be able to come
up with such amazing reasons how anything that the TOCs don't already do
won't work. Try thinking in terms of how things might be better instead
could be quite a revelation.

So why don't I take this to Scotrail? Because it's better for
individuals such as me and my tandeming friend to have bendable rules
that we can work around with a bit of initiative, though a rule based on
what would actually *fit* would almost certainly make more sense to the
TOC. And yesterday you were suggesting I maybe made up the story about
the tandem, but a quick Google reveals I've been telling the *same*
story since 1996! And you thought it was just for you? Get over
yourself! (and see http://tinyurl.com/7s5ue if you don't believe that).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:29:54 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email protected]>
wrote:


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada



Stop whining about it on here and tell it to the railway companies.
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:15:18 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email protected]>
wrote:


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada



Stop whining about it on here and tell it to the railway companies.
 
Steven wrote:

>>yada yada yada


"La La La I can't hear you". Again!

> Stop whining about it on here and tell it to the railway companies.


I've already told you exactly why I won't do that. But since you
haven't managed to take it on board so far, here it is again. It is not
in my personal interest to introduce a sensible rule when I can bodge my
way around the existing stupid ones.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:11:30 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email protected]>
wrote:

>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada


>yada yada yada



Tell it to the railway companies and stop whining on here.
 
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 10:04:02 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I've already told you exactly why I won't do that. But since you
>haven't managed to take it on board so far, here it is again. It is not
>in my personal interest to introduce a sensible rule when I can bodge my
>way around the existing stupid ones.


So, basically, you're happy to whine and rant on here 'till the cows come home,
but you won't spend a fraction of the time you've spent on that to contact the
railway company with your brilliant idea.

What a bizarrely selfish attitude.

Spend hours and hours banging away where it can do no good, but don't spend ten
minutes actually trying to do something useful for your fellow cyclists.

How charming.
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:09:09 GMT, [email protected] (Steven)
wrote:

>Station Management
>
>An interesting idea, but if we let them do that, it will mean that, to be fair,
>*all* bikes have to be measured. This will in any case be impossible at unmanned
>or singly manned (i.e. most) stations, but if the guards are happy to it, fair
>enough.
>
>Our only objection would be that once you allow bikes to be carried according to
>measurement, and also allow parts to be removed, then you would obviously have
>cyclists bringing cycles and partially dismantling them to get them carried.
>
>We don't really want dirty greasy cycle parts being carried through the
>stations, and we would not really want people disassembling them on the
>platforms (except where somewhere could be set aside for the task).
>
>Also, if cyclists *are* removing parts to get their bikes to fit, they will
>likely end up having dirty, greasy hands which will make the stations unpleasant
>for other passengers.


My new tandem can be reduced to the length of a normal bike by the
release of two QRs and a couple of cable joiners. No dirty greasy
parts involved.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:47:24 GMT, [email protected] (Steven)
wrote:

>The problem with Peter's ill though out scheme is that it would just about
>*guarantee* that you would get a sucession of people bringing tandems and
>removing the wheels so that they would fit the specified maximum length.


Undo two clips, release three cable joiners, move stem to one side,
swing rear triangle under, swing front fork under. Job done. Takes
about two minutes, no tools, wheels remain on the bike, mechanical
bits don't touch the ground, fingers remain clean.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
Steven wrote:

> So, basically, you're happy to whine and rant on here 'till the cows come home,


My point is to illustrate that TOCs are not in possession of Divine
Wisdom by practical example, so those that think otherwise can see it is
not so and revise their opinions.

> but you won't spend a fraction of the time you've spent on that to contact the
> railway company with your brilliant idea.


Because it is not in my interest. Why should I?

> Spend hours and hours banging away where it can do no good


What, like you are?

> but don't spend ten
> minutes actually trying to do something useful for your fellow cyclists.
>
> How charming.


And how you seem to be ignoring the points I made in favour of insults
and name calling. The obvious conclusion is that you and your points
lack the intellectual rigour to stand up when challenged, or you'd
actually do them the benefit of seeing them through rather than putting
your hands over ears and whine on and on about me whining inna
pot-meet-kettle stylee.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> My new tandem can be reduced to the length of a normal bike by the
> release of two QRs and a couple of cable joiners. No dirty greasy
> parts involved.


You're just the sort of argumentative idiot that gives cyclists a bad
name, presenting mere facts that bruise our established assumptions. Of
course you should be banned from trains! And that Brompton isn't
luggage, it's primary transport, so even though it folds up we've got
our eye on that too! ;-/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/