low cadence, big gear training (was share your sprint)

[RapDaddyo]

Many people are willing to go side-by-side with Andy, Ric and all. I ain't got no problem with that.

Just to be clear, I don't go side-by-side with anybody without studying their statements and the underlying facts, data and analysis. In fact, I disagree with Andy on something he has said on more than one occasion -- that experienced TTers ride TT courses at near optimal pacing within the constraint of their sustainable power. I know I don't and I doubt that the majority of others do as well as Andy thinks (including Andy) and I look forward to proving that to him in the near future. But, when I come to the table, I plan to come with a way to test this hypothesis. Until then, it's a waste of time to debate.

 

[Billsworld]

And in fact it isn't even really clear that strength is a critical component to performance even in those events. Specifically, working with elite track cyclists Stone et al. found that intraindividual differences in strength (measured a variety of ways) only explained ~25% of intraindividual differences in performance, i.e., time required to cover 25 m from a standing start. Now I'm not about to argue based on such data that strength doesn't play any role at all (or that strength training isn't useful for such athletes, which is really a different question), but nonetheless I find it striking how low the correlation actually proved to be.

I wish strength was more directly related to cycling and sprinting. Then I would be better at both. I have squated 405x6 deep olympic style squats with no belt, and done high stepups with 275lbs. I still see roadies that can make more peak power than I can on the bike. The force to drive the bike from a standing start and the type of training you are talking about is different than gym strength (Ok you guys know that one). My only question would be ...would this type of work be best done well over FT for shorter durations...1-10 minutes. Throw in different amount of recovery between sets to suit the event the rider is woking at. Roadie shorter active rest, trackie full rest.? How bout some fast spinning between, again, event specific?

 

[acoggan]

If cyclists don't do big gear/low cadence training because they think it will result in an increase in strength, why do they do it?

Probably for the same reason that people obsess about the weight of their bicycle, while ignoring the aerodynamic aspect: they simply don't know any better.

 

[acoggan]

I disagree with Andy on something he has said on more than one occasion -- that experienced TTers ride TT courses at near optimal pacing within the constraint of their sustainable power. I know I don't and I doubt that the majority of others do as well as Andy thinks (including Andy) and I look forward to proving that to him in the near future.

I look forward to this as well, because you're doing the hard part of coding up the modeling as I envisioned it a long time ago. By doing so you could very well prove me to be wrong...but having looked at enough powermeter files from experienced riders TTing on the same hilly courses, I don't think that I am (or if I am, everyone - including yours truly - is doing it wrong).

BTW, an important factor you need to include in your modeling is the fact that anaerobic capacity is reduced by a preceeding submaximal effort, such that all of one's power-duration curve is only available very early in a race. After that it won't be, meaning that a model that doesn't account for this may tell you to do something you can't, e.g., to minimize your time you need to go up a 2 min hill at 95% of your personal best 2 min power part way through the race. Other than bringing up this fact, though, I can't really advise you on how to deal with it...so-called "alactacid power" is reduced in direct proportion to the intensity of the preceeding exercise, but the impact on "lactacid power" are far more complex.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Just to be clear, I don't go side-by-side with anybody without studying their statements and the underlying facts, data and analysis.

I am glad RapDaddyo. My comment was not intended to anyone in particular, certainly not to you.

It is a normal thing to do, to go range on the side of someone that knows his business. I personnaly don't have the required time, to challange all these concepts.

So I am not going to argue on many concepts, provided by top authorities on this forum, I thrust them. In fact, at the risk of sounding cliché, I feel grateful to have access to such high level and high profile ressources here. I did not find that on other forums where I also participate.

I am a swimming lover, and I can't find a forum where I could chat and learn from Ernest Maglischo himself.

 

[SolarEnergy]

I'd be careful about point 2 above. Much of "what athletes have to say," especially about their own performance, is unreliable.

I am with you on everything you wrote. I didn't say I believe in what they say, but I certainly listen to them. And at more than one occasion, especially with technically challanging sports (swimming) I have learned a lot from my most talented subjects.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

...at the risk of sounding cliché, I feel grateful to have access to such high level and high profile ressources here. I did not find that on other forums where I also participate.

Agreed 100%. I quit posting and lurking at bikeforums.net because all of the real brain power is right here. All I got there were a bunch of snub kiddies with anecdotal proof that "X" type training really really works.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Hi Doc,

Even many riders, here, are much smarter (should write knowledgable and open minded) than some coaches I know

 

[fergie]

And in fact it isn't even really clear that strength is a critical component to performance even in those events. Specifically, working with elite track cyclists Stone et al. found that intraindividual differences in strength (measured a variety of ways) only explained ~25% of intraindividual differences in performance, i.e., time required to cover 25 m from a standing start. Now I'm not about to argue based on such data that strength doesn't play any role at all (or that strength training isn't useful for such athletes, which is really a different question), but nonetheless I find it striking how low the correlation actually proved to be.

Ric, if your out there perhaps you are the best person to mention how weak Chris Boardman was when he ventured into the Gym, I heard he could not leg press 40kg.

I still have a wee reservation about weight training and sprinters. They still do it but I think that strength work (max weight lifted) helps in the first 5m of a event and power work (weight lifted fast) helps over the next 20-50m then it's on the bike training. A little bit of research on this but not great research. And is it relevent?

Recent study on track sprinters using SRM data shows that average power over 200m is more important (not significantly though) than peak power. Perhaps this means the emphasis of training is using what speed you have better (tactics and speed endurance).

As for Kilo riders I have some doubts as I did a lot of 50m efforts with my Kilo riders and they could easily belt out the fastest first lap but blew in the final lap. Again perhaps the goal needs to change from developing peak power to average power for these very short events.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[fergie]

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining/

Pretty much answers many of the questions I had about this form of training and offers the types of training I had come up with myself as an alternative.

One note is that Hayden Roulston who supplied the info I gave Andy used SE training on a BT Erg in December as part of 4-6 hours a day training and rode the Tour de Vineyards, won the first three stages (stages 2-3 hours in length) and each day rode extra ks to make up a 5-6 hour day. 5 days after the Tour finished rode 4.33 (this inc sitting up in the final lap as he was 6sec up on his opponent who won World Cup Gold in TP and placed 6th in IP at Manchester World Cup 4 weeks ago) for 4000m to clean up the NZ Pursuit Title on a outdoor board track.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[acoggan]

I still have a wee reservation about weight training and sprinters.

I don't: lifting weights is a very effective means of inducing muscle hypertrophy, and all else being equal, bigger muscles = more power.

 

[SolarEnergy]

For what it's worth, this has been shown (by the South Africans) to be true in swimming (in events that are 50sec long !!), since Sydney 2000 Oly.

In running, it is also very common for sprinters, to do heavy weight training.

 

[fergie]

For what it's worth, this has been shown (by the South Africans) to be true in swimming (in events that are 50sec long !!), since Sydney 2000 Oly.

In running, it is also very common for sprinters, to do heavy weight training.

Some didn't. Carl Lewis did plyometrics instead.

In regards to power and sprinters again I have to say it's a wee bit more complex than that. At our Track Nationals the top qualifier was riding a 108inch gear during the rounds and his tactic was to wind it up and no one could get past. Worked till the semis where the other rider pinned him against the fence and jumped him late.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[WarrenG]

Some didn't. Carl Lewis did plyometrics instead.

In regards to power and sprinters again I have to say it's a wee bit more complex than that. At our Track Nationals the top qualifier was riding a 108inch gear during the rounds and his tactic was to wind it up and no one could get past. Worked till the semis where the other rider pinned him against the fence and jumped him late.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

The rules say the lead rider must leave room on the right for the other rider to pass, so the guy in the big gear screwed up by not ramping up the speed because you can't really be pinned and kept from accelerating.

 

[fergie]

The rules say the lead rider must leave room on the right for the other rider to pass, so the guy in the big gear screwed up by not ramping up the speed because you can't really be pinned and kept from accelerating.

In the final the rider in question was DQed for that same thing. The key is to do it enough to stall but not impede the opponent.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[whoawhoa]

I'm a successful expert class mountain biker who dabbles in road racing. I can comfortably spin to about 150 rpm, and I feel pretty good pushing 50 to 60 rpm when necessary. Any given mountain bike race might require both types of efforts, and I train to make sure that I can do both.

In my mountain bike racing experience, efforts at cadences that low are limited to fairly short sections, and are probably better trained by short efforts to improve neuromuscular power rather than extended intervals at low cadence. But I agree, if you don't train for those situations, you won't be prepared for them. I proved that to myself with my underperformance in mountain bike races this year, at least relative to my road race results.

 

[fergie]

I don't: lifting weights is a very effective means of inducing muscle hypertrophy, and all else being equal, bigger muscles = more power.

But athletes hardly ever train for bigger muscles. They always stick below 5 reps. It's the ones trained by personal trainers who do the three sets of ten, put on muscle and wonder why their jump or climbing goes to custard.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[Roadie_scum]

But athletes hardly ever train for bigger muscles. They always stick below 5 reps. It's the ones trained by personal trainers who do the three sets of ten, put on muscle and wonder why their jump or climbing goes to custard.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

In the context of sprinters, especially sprint cyclists, athletes do train for bigger muscle. Those that don't (if there are any) should. As Andy pointed out, weight training leads to hypertrophy which in turn leads to more power. Purely training neuromuscular power (as opposed to hypertrophy) with weights is fruitless for cyclists as it is very difficult to replicate joint angles and velocities appropriate for cycling with weights and neuromuscular adaptions are highly specific to joint angle and velocity. That said, I know strength coaches at the AIS still make the effort to go as close as possible to the same joint angle and velocity when using free or fixed weights. There is a great post which talks about this on one of the track cycling forums. Andy linked to it on another thread on cyclingforums, so maybe go looking for it here.

 

[Billsworld]

In the context of sprinters, especially sprint cyclists, athletes do train for bigger muscle. Those that don't (if there are any) should. As Andy pointed out, weight training leads to hypertrophy which in turn leads to more power. Purely training neuromuscular power (as opposed to hypertrophy) with weights is fruitless for cyclists as it is very difficult to replicate joint angles and velocities appropriate for cycling with weights and neuromuscular adaptions are highly specific to joint angle and velocity. That said, I know strength coaches at the AIS still make the effort to go as close as possible to the same joint angle and velocity when using free or fixed weights. There is a great post which talks about this on one of the track cycling forums. Andy linked to it on another thread on cyclingforums, so maybe go looking for it here.

That artivle by the AIS coach also mentioned the use of high speed film to assist in duplicating joint angles and velocity . Most likely done for each cyclist(fergie). I have also read alot of guys developing problems/injuries with the one leg work that AIS is suggesting. The average joe is going to .....go by feel on velocity and joint angles? I also would not poo poo neuro muscular adaption vs hypertrophy as one being useless. I would bet that most of the lifting they do is fast low rep/heavy lifting. Is that neuro development or hypertrophy? I am not sure how hypertrophy development or neuromuscular development gained in the gym will help a roadie two months into a season though. Just my one and half cents BW

 

[acoggan]

But athletes hardly ever train for bigger muscles. They always stick below 5 reps.

Not the ones whose training programs have been developed by those who truly understand the physiology of exercise.