low cadence, big gear training (was share your sprint)

[acoggan]

I am not sure how hypertrophy development or neuromuscular development gained in the gym will help a roadie two months into a season though.

You learn fast, Bill!

 

[Billsworld]

Not the ones whose training programs have been developed by those who truly understand the physiology of exercise.[/QUOTE I am wondering what every one is talking about when they are talking about gym work to induce hypertophy vs neur adaptation. Fergie mentioned 5s as a rep range. Thats the range we would work in to develop power. The reps are done fast, and nowhere near "failure". I am sure there was both hypertrophy and neuro adaptation being developed. I then case of sprint training couldnt the hypertropthy be developed on the ergo just as easily without the wear and tear/recovery problems associated with gym work?

 

[WarrenG]

Not the ones whose training programs have been developed by those who truly understand the physiology of exercise.[/QUOTE I am wondering what every one is talking about when they are talking about gym work to induce hypertophy vs neur adaptation. Fergie mentioned 5s as a rep range. Thats the range we would work in to develop power. The reps are done fast, and nowhere near "failure". I am sure there was both hypertrophy and neuro adaptation being developed. I then case of sprint training couldnt the hypertropthy be developed on the ergo just as easily without the wear and tear/recovery problems associated with gym work?

And/ or outside, with standing starts on a hill.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

But athletes hardly ever train for bigger muscles. They always stick below 5 reps. It's the ones trained by personal trainers who do the three sets of ten, put on muscle and wonder why their jump or climbing goes to custard.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

This is my understanding as well. If hypertrophy training were the best method of producing strength gains, then bodybuilders would be able to crush powerlifters or olympic lifters at meets, yet most bodybuilders (even in the off season when their diet is not so strict) are seldom as strong as their powerlifting brethren. Some of them are as weak as kittens by comparison, yet they have a larger cross-section of muscle mass.

Many powerlifters may train their main lifts with 6 to 8 reps in the off season and will do around 6 to 8 reps on their assistance work. However, as a meet approaches they will drop their rep ranges down to 1 to 5 reps for the main lifts and keep the reps for assistance work a little higher. Reps of 2 to 3 are common just prior to competition. And they, as mentioned, never take a set to failure. Doing so is bad mojo and if anyone (powerlifter, bodybuilder or athlete) still trains that way the need to stop immediately!

6 to 8 reps is a good rep range for functional hypertrophy (a balance of size and strength). But bodybuilders will go higer than this up to 12 and 15 reps which is for hypertrophy only and isn't an optimum way to build strength. Also, reps this high are almost useless for fast twitch muscle groups like hamstrings. Reps in the 12 to 15 range will only produce strength gains in untrained or deconditioned athletes. That doesn't mean an athlete needs to be out of shape for their particular sport, but rather deconditioned for resistance training. Big difference.


Note: By the way, the term powerlifting is a bit of a misnomer. It should be renamed forcelifting. Olympic lifting generates considerably more "power" than powerlifting due to the instantaneous speeds produced to overcome inertia as in the ******. Olympic lifters are explosive!

 

[Doctor Morbius]

...It's the ones trained by personal trainers who do the three sets of ten, put on muscle and wonder why their jump or climbing goes to custard...

Personal trainers is another thread altogether. Most of them today simply regurgitate what they've been taught in school or by studying for a certification. Many don't really have real world knowledge of athetics. For example, I have a cousin who is the head personal trainer at some chichi club here in Indianapolis. He's convinced (all 170 lbs of him ) that no one ever need do more than 4 sets per bodypart in order to see improvements in strength and/or size. Bah! That's the kind of tripe they teach some of these *ahem* gurus today. I doubt Fred Hatfield, Charles Poliquin, Bill Kazmier, Ed Coan or Felt_Rider would agree with that. I know I don't.

 

[Billsworld]

Personal trainers is another thread altogether. Most of them today simply regurgitate what they've been taught in school or by studying for a certification. Many don't really have real world knowledge of athetics. For example, I have a cousin who is the head personal trainer at some chichi club here in Indianapolis. He's convinced (all 170 lbs of him ) that no one ever need do more than 4 sets per bodypart in order to see improvements in strength and/or size. Bah! That's the kind of tripe they teach some of these *ahem* gurus today. I doubt Fred Hatfield, Charles Poliquin, Bill Kazmier, Ed Coan or Felt_Rider would agree with that. I know I don't.

First post is 100%....... 2nd, I think that you can get away with the 4 sets for hypertrophy or power. I think each to his own. I have a pal that did 800 at 181 claen . leg work was 4 sets squat + 4 leg curl and dl same day. Just varied rep range throughout the year. (was a freak though) Coan, Kaz and DR Squat used lots of drugs. Might be an unpopular viewpoint, but thier scence doesnt apply to clean guys. I think what will work for hypertrophy and or neuro development depends on genetics ie ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch fiber of the individual..In the gym I also believe that it is difficult to mutually train one vs. the other based on my assumption #1. Hey but we are talking cycling here, and I think Warren G has a huge point regarding satanding starts. A 30 sec effort standing start feels alot like weight training.....(to me) Never mind ......UPS just came by with my new weels. Track wheels ( tubulars).....with a powertap Wheelbuilder.com

 

[fergie]

Not the ones whose training programs have been developed by those who truly understand the physiology of exercise.

Yup didn't say if it was right or wrong only that all the elite athletes I have trained in the gym, seen train in the gym or been told how they train in the gym are based around strength and power. Very few do any hypertrophy training let alone short blocks of hypertrophy training.

Brings up a new argument of whether once you have built all this new muscle whether you can convert it to power on the bike.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[WarrenG]

Yup didn't say if it was right or wrong only that all the elite athletes I have trained in the gym, seen train in the gym or been told how they train in the gym are based around strength and power. Very few do any hypertrophy training let alone short blocks of hypertrophy training.

Brings up a new argument of whether once you have built all this new muscle whether you can convert it to power on the bike.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

We've all seen sprinters with huge muscles who couldn't go fast, huge muscles that could go fast, and smaller muscles that could go fast too.

Since you seem to be bringing this up, for track sprint athletes, can you explain to me how training the legs in the gym would be better in some way than training the legs on the bike, outside? IOW, what could the gym provide that can't be obtained while on the bike?

 

[Billsworld]

We've all seen sprinters with huge muscles who couldn't go fast, huge muscles that could go fast, and smaller muscles that could go fast too.

Since you seem to be bringing this up, for track sprint athletes, can you explain to me how training the legs in the gym would be better in some way than training the legs on the bike, outside? IOW, what could the gym provide that can't be obtained while on the bike?

Great question!!. What jumped out at me in the piece that ACOGGAN wrote was that even the spinters were only using half thier strength in a sprint. If thats true, then the sprinter is basicly born and then developed on the bike. I am not trying to pour gas on the Fergie vs Andy thing, but it seems that that piece written by Andy sort of made a point that fergie has been stating all along. It may be why AIS spends so much time on joint angles and velocity specific training in the gym ; without it, the weightroom may be of only a small benifit??? .

 

[whoawhoa]

Since you seem to be bringing this up, for track sprint athletes, can you explain to me how training the legs in the gym would be better in some way than training the legs on the bike, outside? IOW, what could the gym provide that can't be obtained while on the bike?

I know next to nothing about strength or sprint training, but I'm thinking it is for pure force development? I think cadence would have to be unrealistically low to simulate the velocities used in the weight room.

 

[WarrenG]

I know next to nothing about strength or sprint training, but I'm thinking it is for pure force development? I think cadence would have to be unrealistically low to simulate the velocities used in the weight room.

It would depend somewhat on the gearing and current speed but I think there is a lot of force involved in the first few pedal strokes of a very hard acceleration even if it's going from 22-38+ mph in a very short time.

However, we know that type 2b fibers are used throughout a sprint of say, 15-20" so there can be various ways to improve their ability, yes? For example, a sprint in a 39x14 that ends in 15" at 135+ rpms would be using lots of 2b but the forces would be fairly low. So, do the forces have to be high to engage the 2b's we're trying to improve?

Elite track sprinting has evolved in the last 3-5 years and I think we see far fewer races won because of a great jump (mainly because the front rider can no longer pin his opponent to the rail)-speeds are generally ramped up and the guy who can still apply high power in the last 5-8" of a sprint is either coming around or holding off the guy who is slingshotting out of his draft. So, the training has evolved in response to this.

So why are the elite sprinters still spending time in the gym instead of more training on the bike?

 

[Billsworld]

It would depend somewhat on the gearing and current speed but I think there is a lot of force involved in the first few pedal strokes of a very hard acceleration even if it's going from 22-38+ mph in a very short time.

However, we know that type 2b fibers are used throughout a sprint of say, 15-20" so there can be various ways to improve their ability, yes? For example, a sprint in a 39x14 that ends in 15" at 135+ rpms would be using lots of 2b but the forces would be fairly low. So, do the forces have to be high to engage the 2b's we're trying to improve?

Elite track sprinting has evolved in the last 3-5 years and I think we see far fewer races won because of a great jump (mainly because the front rider can no longer pin his opponent to the rail)-speeds are generally ramped up and the guy who can still apply high power in the last 5-8" of a sprint is either coming around or holding off the guy who is slingshotting out of his draft. So, the training has evolved in response to this.

So why are the elite sprinters still spending time in the gym instead of more training on the bike?

To add to that, velocities in the gym can be quite fast. In the case of the olympic lifts, and even the squat can be done quite fast . If I am understanding WG right, the elites are working more at holding power longer than making big numbers on the jump? Does this mean those huge watt numbers they are making are not as important as being able to hold say 1000 watts at high rpm for longer ?

 

[bikeguy]

So why are the elite sprinters still spending time in the gym instead of more training on the bike?

Because weight training, and particularly explosive weight training (better)
will improve peak power and and muscle mass, producing a greater pool of available ATP and CP available for a sprint. Since frontal area increases at a (scales as BM power of 2/3)lesser rate in proportion to body mass, this will increase maximum velocity attainable. In addition weight training increases testosterone production which tends to decrease body fat, so you could even have a decrease in absolute weight with an increase in peak power output. I've noticed myself my bodyfat levels have gone up a slight amount since I stopped weight training, but I'm training for RR's and TT's not 200 m sprints.

-Bikeguy

 

[acoggan]

However, we know that type 2b fibers are used throughout a sprint of say, 15-20"

Even sprint athletes have very few, if any, type IIx (IIb) fibers remaining.

Elite track sprinting has evolved in the last 3-5 years and I think we see far fewer races won because of a great jump (mainly because the front rider can no longer pin his opponent to the rail)-speeds are generally ramped up and the guy who can still apply high power in the last 5-8" of a sprint is either coming around or holding off the guy who is slingshotting out of his draft. So, the training has evolved in response to this.

Go read how the Aussie sprinters train and then tell me that training has evolved to focus on maintaining power for a longer period of time. If anything, the opposite is true: track sprinters (the Australians, anyway) train more like 100 m runners than ever before.

 

[WarrenG]

Because weight training, and particularly explosive weight training (better)
will improve peak power and and muscle mass, producing a greater pool of available ATP and CP available for a sprint. Since frontal area increases at a (scales as BM power of 2/3)lesser rate in proportion to body mass, this will increase maximum velocity attainable. In addition weight training increases testosterone production which tends to decrease body fat, so you could even have a decrease in absolute weight with an increase in peak power output. I've noticed myself my bodyfat levels have gone up a slight amount since I stopped weight training, but I'm training for RR's and TT's not 200 m sprints.

-Bikeguy

Can't a person do all these things while on the bike?

 

[WarrenG]

Even sprint athletes have very few, if any, type IIx (IIb) fibers remaining.

Whatever. Then they train to get more of their other type 2's to behave like 2b, that is.

Go read how the Aussie sprinters train and then tell me that training has evolved to focus on maintaining power for a longer period of time. If anything, the opposite is true: track sprinters (the Australians, anyway) train more like 100 m runners than ever before.

Go watch a bunch of elite sprints (not just Australians) and compare the number of winners using one big jump now, as opposed to 3-5+ years ago. You can pretty much start with the year Marty Nothstein won at Worlds and how he did it, and what has happened since. This is very basic stuff.

 

[fergie]

Go read how the Aussie sprinters train and then tell me that training has evolved to focus on maintaining power for a longer period of time. If anything, the opposite is true: track sprinters (the Australians, anyway) train more like 100 m runners than ever before.

How they say they train.

What of the study that showed that results in World level Semi Final and Final rides were decided by ave power more than peak power (not significantly).

The Aussie post does say that they try and build to a peak power then try and add speed endurance. Sprinting has changed with shorter tracks and leading out being a more favourable position. Sprinters also have more events to consider with the Team Sprint, Keirin and Kilo with many countries using the same rider in all these events.

It's a wee way back in this thread now so I ask again where do people stand on converting muscle into cycling power on the bike? Would a track sprinter not benefit more in terms of cycling specific hypertrophy from doing 10 X 50m efforts on the track than 3-10 sets of 8-15 reps in the gym?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[whoawhoa]

It's a wee way back in this thread now so I ask again where do people stand on converting muscle into cycling power on the bike? Would a track sprinter not benefit more in terms of cycling specific hypertrophy from doing 10 X 50m efforts on the track than 3-10 sets of 8-15 reps in the gym?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

What would cadence be in a 50 meter effort on the track? More velocity=less force, which I guess would result in less hypertrophy.

 

[bikeguy]

Can't a person do all these things while on the bike?

No. I'm sure Coggan has already addressed why. Forces aren't high enough.


-Bikeguy

 

[acoggan]

Whatever. Then they train to get more of their other type 2's to behave like 2b, that is.

I think you mean the opposite, i.e., getting the type IIx (IIb) fibers to "behave like" type IIa (including expressing type IIa, not IIx, myosin).

Go watch a bunch of elite sprints (not just Australians) and compare the number of winners using one big jump now, as opposed to 3-5+ years ago. You can pretty much start with the year Marty Nothstein won at Worlds and how he did it, and what has happened since. This is very basic stuff.

I'm not talking about how people race, but how they (the highly successful Australians, anyway) train. As I said, the move has been away from focussing so much on "speed endurance" or whatever you want to call it and towards focussing on more pure speed (power).