M5 Carbon Lowracer - Buyer Beware!



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Bluphoton

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Is anyone else experiencing problems with their m5? There are three M5 owners here in New Orleans -
we ride on an awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee. Each of the M5 bikes were purchased from
Bram over a two year period. The concept of the M5, as explained by Bram, is wonderful to hear.
However the reality of the M5, from an engineer/owner is it's simply a prototype with MANY bugs.

I'm posting this message to inform potential M5 buyers to BEWARE. Hopefully no one will get injured.
The M5s we've seen all have epoxy problems - either the epoxy is unable to bond to the carbon, or
the epoxy was incorrectly applied. During rides, the epoxied bottom brackets on all three M5s here
simply came unglued from the carbon nose piece. Also, every epoxied t-nut is experiencing bonding
problems. Additionally, stress cracks are appearing on the boom, near the headset.

Last week, in response to these problems, Bram sent a letter notifying us the M5s must be shipped to
the factory for inspection and modificaion. However the letter states Bram's offer to 'stand behind
his product' is only good until July 30, 2003. Furthermore, Bram or his flunky state in the recall
letter the modifications will require three weeks. My bike isn't a year old and its falling apart.

As Bram is located out of the US, US buyers have no legal recourse. I like the "M5 dream
according to Bram". However the reality of the situation is we are dissatisfied with Bram's Bull.
Hopefully Bram will remedy the design issues with the M5. Thusfar, Bram is big on promises and
small on ethics.

If anyone else is experiencing M5 problems, please email. I'm glad to discuss the problems we have
experienced with Bram and the M5. I am willing to have my programmers setup a website so we may pool
our information. Bram should either fix his product or we will inform potential buyers of the
reality of the M5 and Bram. I feel this is the only recourse available. Hopefully no injuries will
result from riding the defective M5.
 
Thanks for the warning. I don't own an M5 but I have had many problems with most of the high
performance bents I have owned. Yes, they are mostly "prototype" as the production numbers are too
low. I have also felt hesitant about making the problems public because, in the end, I depend on
the maker to help me fix the problem and don't want to **** them off. Legal recourse? Forget about
it, it is never worth the money and effort - it all comes down to the goodwill and integrity of
the maker.

Regards Chris
 
On 25 Jul 2003 15:13:26 -0700, [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote:

>Is anyone else experiencing problems with their m5? There are three M5 owners here in New Orleans -
>we ride on an awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee.

Sorry to hear about the problems with the bike - but I can't get past your teaser "we ride on an
awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee."

Let's hear the details!
 
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:04:23 -0400, Dave Miller <> wrote:

>On 25 Jul 2003 15:13:26 -0700, [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote:
>
>>Is anyone else experiencing problems with their m5? There are three M5 owners here in New Orleans
>>- we ride on an awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee.
>
>
>Sorry to hear about the problems with the bike - but I can't get past your teaser "we ride on an
>awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee."
>
>Let's hear the details!

I think he left out a word--should be "Mississippi River levee." :)

BTW...is this the same bike that Brummer sells rebadged as a Lightning?

Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx (but a Nawlins native) EZ-1SC Pilot (Texas P-38 Squadron Retired)
Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org
 
"Dave Clary" skrev

> BTW...is this the same bike that Brummer sells rebadged as a Lightning?

This is the carbon version. The steel version that Lightning sells modified versions of has a
traditional steel boom AFAIK. Not a glued boom that seems to be coming apart like on the carbon.

Mikael
 
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 21:29:03 +0200, "Mikael Seierup" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Dave Clary" skrev
>
>> BTW...is this the same bike that Brummer sells rebadged as a Lightning?
>
>This is the carbon version. The steel version that Lightning sells modified versions of has a
>traditional steel boom AFAIK. Not a glued boom that seems to be coming apart like on the carbon.

Thanks!

dc
 
<Dave Miller> wrote in message > Sorry to hear about the problems with the bike - but I
can't get past
> your teaser "we ride on an awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee."
>
> Let's hear the details!
>

Runs along the levee for 13 miles unless they have extended it. You can pick it up at the Zoo at
Audubon Park. Interesting ride but can't see much of the river, if memory serves.
 
Approximately 2 months ago, an carbon M5 boom broke off during an HPV race. There is a picture of
this - (somewhat old) - along with the story at bentrideronline.com (Message board - HPV racing).

I love lowracers and, in particular, my Jester. It would be great to go carbon, but I suspect
there is a manufacturer's learning curve with regards to strength before these carbon bikes will
be reliable.

Chris Crawford <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Thanks for the warning. I don't own an M5 but I have had many problems with most of the high
> performance bents I have owned. Yes, they are mostly "prototype" as the production numbers are too
> low. I have also felt hesitant about making the problems public because, in the end, I depend on
> the maker to help me fix the problem and don't want to **** them off. Legal recourse? Forget about
> it, it is never worth the money and effort - it all comes down to the goodwill and integrity of
> the maker.
>
> Regards Chris
 
Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came with a
one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems like he is offering an extended warranty on the two year
old bikes. You could probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is unreasonable. Your
caution about buyer beware is good advice on any new product, but especially on anything made of
plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn

"bluphoton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is anyone else experiencing problems with their m5? There are three M5 owners here in New
> Orleans - we ride on an awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee. Each of the M5 bikes were
> purchased from Bram over a two year period. The concept of the M5, as explained by Bram, is
> wonderful to hear. However the reality of the M5, from an engineer/owner is it's simply a
> prototype with MANY bugs.
>
> I'm posting this message to inform potential M5 buyers to BEWARE. Hopefully no one will get
> injured. The M5s we've seen all have epoxy problems - either the epoxy is unable to bond to the
> carbon, or the epoxy was incorrectly applied. During rides, the epoxied bottom brackets on all
> three M5s here simply came unglued from the carbon nose piece. Also, every epoxied t-nut is
> experiencing bonding problems. Additionally, stress cracks are appearing on the boom, near the
> headset.
>
> Last week, in response to these problems, Bram sent a letter notifying us the M5s must be shipped
> to the factory for inspection and modificaion. However the letter states Bram's offer to 'stand
> behind his product' is only good until July 30, 2003. Furthermore, Bram or his flunky state in
> the recall letter the modifications will require three weeks. My bike isn't a year old and its
> falling apart.
>
> As Bram is located out of the US, US buyers have no legal recourse. I like the "M5 dream
> according to Bram". However the reality of the situation is we are dissatisfied with Bram's Bull.
> Hopefully Bram will remedy the design issues with the M5. Thusfar, Bram is big on promises and
> small on ethics.
>
> If anyone else is experiencing M5 problems, please email. I'm glad to discuss the problems we have
> experienced with Bram and the M5. I am willing to have my programmers setup a website so we may
> pool our information. Bram should either fix his product or we will inform potential buyers of the
> reality of the M5 and Bram. I feel this is the only recourse available. Hopefully no injuries will
> result from riding the defective M5.
 
I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According to
Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill that is
delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs associated with
repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I have yet to receive
any compensation for mechanic's expenses.

When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.

As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six months,
and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises to deliver a
product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from the crate. This frame
is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs to me.

"Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came with
> a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems like he is offering an extended warranty on the two
> year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is unreasonable.
> Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on any new product, but especially on anything made
> of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
 
Yo bluephoton ( as in blue light special, Kmart shoppers?), you sound like the kinda guy or gal who
can't eat in a restaraunt more than once without having the kitchen spit in your order. Bon Apetitie
and happy trails.

"bluphoton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According to
> Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill that
> is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs associated
> with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I have yet to
> receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
>
> When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
> thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
> handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
> assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.
>
> As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six months,
> and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises to deliver a
> product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from the crate. This
> frame is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs to me.
>
>
>
> "Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came
> > with a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems
like
> > he is offering an extended warranty on the two year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the
> > July 30 cut off date if that is unreasonable. Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on
> > any new product, but especially on anything made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
 
Pehaps you would identify yourself since you make such strong comments directed toward an
individual. It is pretty hard to belive just an email address. thanks, Dave [email protected]
(bluphoton) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According to
> Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill that
> is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs associated
> with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I have yet to
> receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
>
> When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
> thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
> handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
> assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.
>
> As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six months,
> and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises to deliver a
> product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from the crate. This
> frame is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs to me.
>
>
>
> "Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came
> > with a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems like he is offering an extended warranty on
> > the two year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is
> > unreasonable. Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on any new product, but especially
> > on anything made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
 
[email protected] (bluphoton) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According to
> Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill that
> is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs associated
> with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I have yet to
> receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
>
> When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
> thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
> handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
> assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.
>
Against my better judgement, I would like to add my comments to this thread. None of my comments are
intended in any way to dismiss or diminish the allegations made by bluephoton. I am fully
sympathetic to his situation. I have owned a M5 Shock Proof for the last six last months. In all
fairness, so far, the Shock Proof is the finest bike I have ever ridden. It is an extremely well
designed and artfully crafted bike. It is also very, very fast. In my experience, it is almost
always preferable to purchase a bike through an authorized dealer. This would be particularly true
when purchasing an newly developed bike from overseas. A number of US dealers are listed on the M5
website. When I contacted some of these dealers to arrange a test ride, they informed me that they
were no longer M5 dealers. Several other dealers "skirted" the subject of their dealership status
and immediately tried to interest me in other Euro-bents. I found this state of affairs to be
unsettling. Eventually, I found a M5 dealer in Florida who was willing to personaly stand behind the
product. Based on my confidence in the dealer, and the highly desirable qualities of the Shock
Proof, I purchased the bike. However, I found that the handlebar stem was too short and that my
thighs were hitting the handlebars. Am e-mail from me to M5 brought a rapid response, personally
from Bram. I don't know what Bram would have done to rectify the situation, because the DEALER came
up with a replacement stem before the situation progressed any further. The dealer saved the day.
Here in the US, you can buy a sweatshirt at Walmart, wear it every day for year, use it to wash the
dog, and then take it back to Walmart for a full refund. It isn't that way in Europe and most of the
world. To get RANS-type customer service, it helps to buy a RANS. I would suggest that the lesson to
be drawn from this regretable situation is to try to buy expensive, newly developed products through
established and reputable US dealers. If you can't find a reputable US dealer willing to fully
support the product, that MAY tell you something right there.
 
I can understand your anger, but TREK wouldn't just REPLACE a carbon frame. They always tried to fix
them first. Trust me... I broke four while I worked at a dealer AND was semi-sponsored b them. They
still had to see the frame. The big T has a bit more cash to throw about than M5 does. Unfortunately
for Trek, I did total all four of my OCLV's. Carbon is expensive to produce a whole frame but quite
often, repairs can be much more economical. I think if you ask any major carbon fiber bicycle
manifacturer you'll find that their policy is to return the frame for inspection/repair before
replacing.

On 30 Jul 2003 07:17:04 -0700, [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote:

>I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According to
>Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill that
>is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs associated
>with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I have yet to
>receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
>
>When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
>thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
>handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
>assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.
>
>As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six months,
>and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises to deliver a
>product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from the crate. This
>frame is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs to me.
>
>
>
>"Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came with
>> a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems like he is offering an extended warranty on the two
>> year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is unreasonable.
>> Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on any new product, but especially on anything
>> made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
>>

Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com
 
"Jim C" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> <Dave Miller> wrote in message > Sorry to hear about the problems with the bike - but I can't
> get past
> > your teaser "we ride on an awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee."
> >
> > Let's hear the details!
> >
>
> Runs along the levee for 13 miles unless they have extended it. You can pick it up at the Zoo at
> Audubon Park. Interesting ride but can't see much of the river, if memory serves.

The bike path atop the levee now runs from Audubon to the Luling/Destrehan Bridge. I believe the
distance is approximately 18 miles. I don't care to view the scenic river while averaging 24+ miles
per hour. However, for the dilatants, there are several vantage points from which one may view the
Mississippi.

A word of caution for safety's sake: While viewing the scenery please move yourself and your
bike from atop the bike path. The roadie packs tend to move at a brisk pace and the path is
rather narrow.
 
Dan, Maybe I did not make myself clear. I purchased my M5 in January, 2003. I've ridden the bike
~100 miles due to waiting for parts and the required repairs due to the defective epoxy. The ~$7000
bike is new. Shouldn't there be a minimun ONE YEAR warranty? If this were your bike, would you want
your new, ~$7000 defective bike repaired?

I don't want an extended warranty. I simply want a new frame without known defects. Thusfar I've
paid a local mechanic to rebuild this defective garbage. I don't care to ride a NEW, ~$7000,
defective M5. Would you?

Since the first time I rode the M5, Bram and his flunkies are well aware of my dissatisfaction
with my M5.

Extended warranty... another Bram lie. He hasn't honored the original warranty, if any, for this
new frame.

Regards, Eli

PS: As a roadie, when I purchased an original Kestrel in 1987 and experienced frame problems,
Kestrel replaced the frame in three days. Additonally, Kestrel paid all shipping and mechanic
costs. This is the type of warranty I expect. What type of warranty do you expect?

"Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came with
> a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems like he is offering an extended warranty on the two
> year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is unreasonable.
> Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on any new product, but especially on anything made
> of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
>
> "bluphoton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Is anyone else experiencing problems with their m5? There are three M5 owners here in New
> > Orleans - we ride on an awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee. Each of the M5 bikes were
> > purchased from Bram over a two year period. The concept of the M5, as explained by Bram, is
> > wonderful to hear. However the reality of the M5, from an engineer/owner is it's simply a
> > prototype with MANY bugs.
> >
> > I'm posting this message to inform potential M5 buyers to BEWARE. Hopefully no one will get
> > injured. The M5s we've seen all have epoxy problems - either the epoxy is unable to bond to the
> > carbon, or the epoxy was incorrectly applied. During rides, the epoxied bottom brackets on all
> > three M5s here simply came unglued from the carbon nose piece. Also, every epoxied t-nut is
> > experiencing bonding problems. Additionally, stress cracks are appearing on the boom, near the
> > headset.
> >
> > Last week, in response to these problems, Bram sent a letter notifying us the M5s must be
> > shipped to the factory for inspection and modificaion. However the letter states Bram's offer to
> > 'stand behind his product' is only good until July 30, 2003. Furthermore, Bram or his flunky
> > state in the recall letter the modifications will require three weeks. My bike isn't a year old
> > and its falling apart.
> >
> > As Bram is located out of the US, US buyers have no legal recourse. I like the "M5 dream
> > according to Bram". However the reality of the situation is we are dissatisfied with Bram's
> > Bull. Hopefully Bram will remedy the design issues with the M5. Thusfar, Bram is big on promises
> > and small on ethics.
> >
> > If anyone else is experiencing M5 problems, please email. I'm glad to discuss the problems we
> > have experienced with Bram and the M5. I am willing to have my programmers setup a website so we
> > may pool our information. Bram should either fix his product or we will inform potential buyers
> > of the reality of the M5 and Bram. I feel this is the only recourse available. Hopefully no
> > injuries will result from riding the defective M5.
 
Dave, I'll gladly identify myself. The posted email address is for the spammers. My name is
Eli Lucas. I reside in Jefferson, La. The M5, along with two others, are available for
inspection any time.

Any other questions?

Eli

[email protected] (dave is here) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Pehaps you would identify yourself since you make such strong comments directed toward an
> individual. It is pretty hard to belive just an email address. thanks, Dave [email protected]
> (bluphoton) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According
> > to Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill
> > that is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs
> > associated with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I
> > have yet to receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
> >
> > When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
> > thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
> > handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
> > assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.
> >
> > As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six
> > months, and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises to
> > deliver a product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from the
> > crate. This frame is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came
> > > with a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems like he is offering an extended warranty on
> > > the two year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is
> > > unreasonable. Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on any new product, but
> > > especially on anything made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
>
 
Dickwad, How would you feel if some asshole took your $7000 and delivered a product that is
defective?

Maybe you've never had the $7000 to spend on a bike!

"harv" <harv*no_spam*@spininternet.com> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Yo bluephoton ( as in blue light special, Kmart shoppers?), you sound like the kinda guy or gal
> who can't eat in a restaraunt more than once without having the kitchen spit in your order. Bon
> Apetitie and happy trails.
>
>
> "bluphoton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According
> > to Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill
> > that is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs
> > associated with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I
> > have yet to receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
> >
> > When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
> > thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
> > handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
> > assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.
> >
> > As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six
> > months, and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises to
> > deliver a product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from the
> > crate. This frame is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came
> > > with a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems
> like
> > > he is offering an extended warranty on the two year old bikes. You could probably negotiate
> > > the July 30 cut off date if that is unreasonable. Your caution about buyer beware is good
> > > advice on any new product, but especially on anything made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan
> > > Kluckhuhn
>
 
Bryan, Thanks for your comment. Would you purchase a Trek today? Kestrel replaced my carbon frame in
three days in 1987.

Eli

[email protected] ('BentRider) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I can understand your anger, but TREK wouldn't just REPLACE a carbon frame. They always tried to
> fix them first. Trust me... I broke four while I worked at a dealer AND was semi-sponsored b them.
> They still had to see the frame. The big T has a bit more cash to throw about than M5 does.
> Unfortunately for Trek, I did total all four of my OCLV's. Carbon is expensive to produce a whole
> frame but quite often, repairs can be much more economical. I think if you ask any major carbon
> fiber bicycle manifacturer you'll find that their policy is to return the frame for
> inspection/repair before replacing.
>
> On 30 Jul 2003 07:17:04 -0700, [email protected] (bluphoton) wrote:
>
> >I've had to deal with 'Bram the thief' on several occasions since I received the M5. According to
> >Bram all repairs are supposed to be 'free of charge'. However there is always the FedEx bill that
> >is delivered in a week or so. Additionally, Bram has stated he would refund any costs associated
> >with repairs by local bike mechanics. So far, this is simply another Bram lie as I have yet to
> >receive any compensation for mechanic's expenses.
> >
> >When I attempt to talk with the pompous asshole at M5 who is assigned my case (Bram, that lying
> >thief, certainly does not care to talk with me!), his position is the M5 problems are mine to
> >handle. OK! I'll inform everyone I encounter about the M5/Bram Moens ripoff! Additionally, I've
> >assigned two software engineers to setup a web site to inform the world of Bram's deception.
> >
> >As you can tell my attitude toward Bram is rather negative. This negativity has taken six months,
> >and several interactions with Bram and M5, to develop. I'm tired of their promises to deliver a
> >product as they promised. My M5 has had problems since I removed the bike from the crate. This
> >frame is defective and I feel M5 should replace the frame, free of all costs to me.
> >
> >
> >
> >"Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:<[email protected]>...
> >> Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came
> >> with a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems like he is offering an extended warranty on
> >> the two year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the July 30 cut off date if that is
> >> unreasonable. Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on any new product, but especially
> >> on anything made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
> >>
>
> Bryan J. Ball Editor/Publisher www.bentrideronline.com
 
This sounds eerily familiar. A year or so back there were some angry newsgroup posts from owners who
were very unhappy with their reportedly crumbling carbon Lightning R-84s and Lighting owner Tim
Brummer's reportedly stonewalling their complaints. I have zero personal knowledge about this ...
but I sure cancelled my plan to order a carbon R-84. Ended up with a Ti Rush. I spent the same
$6,000 for a recumbent ... but I'm a happy owner.
--
Gator Bob Siegel "bluphoton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan, Maybe I did not make myself clear. I purchased my M5 in January, 2003. I've ridden the bike
> ~100 miles due to waiting for parts and the required repairs due to the defective epoxy. The
> ~$7000 bike is new. Shouldn't there be a minimun ONE YEAR warranty? If this were your bike, would
> you want your new, ~$7000 defective bike repaired?
>
> I don't want an extended warranty. I simply want a new frame without known defects. Thusfar I've
> paid a local mechanic to rebuild this defective garbage. I don't care to ride a NEW, ~$7000,
> defective M5. Would you?
>
> Since the first time I rode the M5, Bram and his flunkies are well aware of my dissatisfaction
> with my M5.
>
> Extended warranty... another Bram lie. He hasn't honored the original warranty, if any, for this
> new frame.
>
> Regards, Eli
>
> PS: As a roadie, when I purchased an original Kestrel in 1987 and experienced frame problems,
> Kestrel replaced the frame in three days. Additonally, Kestrel paid all shipping and mechanic
> costs. This is the type of warranty I expect. What type of warranty do you expect?
>
>
> "Dan Kluckhuhn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Why don't you send the frames to Holland for M5 to inspect and repair? I assume your M5 came
> > with a one year warranty as my steel LR did. Seems
like
> > he is offering an extended warranty on the two year old bikes. You could probably negotiate the
> > July 30 cut off date if that is unreasonable. Your caution about buyer beware is good advice on
> > any new product, but especially on anything made of plastic or carbon fiber. Dan Kluckhuhn
> >
> > "bluphoton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Is anyone else experiencing problems with their m5? There are three M5 owners here in New
> > > Orleans - we ride on an awesome bikepath atop the Mississippi levee. Each of the M5 bikes were
> > > purchased from Bram over a two year period. The concept of the M5, as explained by Bram, is
> > > wonderful to hear. However the reality of the M5, from an engineer/owner is it's simply a
> > > prototype with MANY bugs.
> > >
> > > I'm posting this message to inform potential M5 buyers to BEWARE. Hopefully no one will get
> > > injured. The M5s we've seen all have epoxy problems - either the epoxy is unable to bond to
> > > the carbon, or the epoxy was incorrectly applied. During rides, the epoxied bottom brackets on
> > > all three M5s here simply came unglued from the carbon nose piece. Also, every epoxied t-nut
> > > is experiencing bonding problems. Additionally, stress cracks are appearing on the boom, near
> > > the headset.
> > >
> > > Last week, in response to these problems, Bram sent a letter notifying us the M5s must be
> > > shipped to the factory for inspection and modificaion. However the letter states Bram's offer
> > > to 'stand behind his product' is only good until July 30, 2003. Furthermore, Bram or his
> > > flunky state in the recall letter the modifications will require three weeks. My bike isn't a
> > > year old and its falling apart.
> > >
> > > As Bram is located out of the US, US buyers have no legal recourse. I like the "M5 dream
> > > according to Bram". However the reality of the situation is we are dissatisfied with Bram's
> > > Bull. Hopefully Bram will remedy the design issues with the M5. Thusfar, Bram is big on
> > > promises and small on ethics.
> > >
> > > If anyone else is experiencing M5 problems, please email. I'm glad to discuss the problems we
> > > have experienced with Bram and the M5. I am willing to have my programmers setup a website so
> > > we may pool our information. Bram should either fix his product or we will inform potential
> > > buyers of the reality of the M5 and Bram. I feel this is the only recourse available.
> > > Hopefully no injuries will result from riding the defective M5.
 
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