No trains for charity cyclists

[JohnB]

David Hansen wrote:
>
> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:20:31 +0200 someone who may be "Mark South"
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >ITYM "Travelling by train in the UK is almost always inconvenient, and with a
> >bike it is a dead certainty that it will be inconvenient."
>
> That's funny. I see people with bikes on many of the train journeys
> that I make. They seldom seem to be inconvenienced.

You don't live where I do though.
Try travelling regularly on many of the SWT/Wessex routes and you have
to book in advance and their are only two bike spaces.
Then, if you are lucky, the space isn't full of luggage, train rubbish
or at peak times sardines in suits.

John B

 

[MartinM]

Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> in message <[email protected]>, dwb
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
> > NewsReader wrote:
> >>> Intersting that Southern is so profitable that it can turn away
> >>> custom to the tune of £20 x 5,000 = £100,000
> >>
> >> Of course, the question could also be asked (I really *am* agnostic
> >> on this topic) as to what the economic fare that should be for
> >> cyclists on trains, since simple logic suggests the footprint
> >> required for a passenger and accompanying bicycle is inevitably much
> >> greater than that of of a normal passenger ....
> >
> > I would like to think most cyclists wouldn't mind paying a premium to
> > be able to take
> > their bike with them (that premium to be decided)
> >
> > The issue here was that the rolling stock in place cannot cope with
> > these passengers,
> > even if you were to charge them £10 000 each.
>
> The issue is that to get an old flatbed freight wagon, bolt bike racks
> on it and couple it to the end of the train would cost all of, ooooooh,
> maybe a couple of thousand nicker. But that would be an innovative
> response to customer demand, and we can't have that.

It's not quite that simple, The only thing that would work is a 325
parcels unit. And who is going to hire it?

 

[MartinM]

"Peter Masson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "dwb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > The issue here was that the rolling stock in place cannot cope with these
> > passengers,
> > even if you were to charge them £10 000 each.
> >
> > This is different to previous years, where it could.
> >
> There's a whole fleet of trains lying idle which would appear to be very
> suitable for conveying a large number of bikes from Brighton to London. I
> refer to the Class 325 postals. Unfortunately AIUI they can't couple to
> Southern Class 375/377 or to Southern/Thameslink Class 319, so the bikes
> would have had to go in separate trains. But it does seem ridiculous that so
> much potential revenue was rejected for lack of what should have been a very
> straightforward solution.
> Peter

Road transport worked perfectly well in the 1997 rail strike
apparently (I rode home)

 

[Chris Brady]

Yeah - and when we travelled from Chichester to Victoria the evening
before we had to change at Barnham because one of the new trains had
broken down. Eventually after 30 minutes delay (sans any form of
announcements whatsoever) we travelled in an old ex-Connex yellow slam
door train. As we went through Three Bridges we noticed that there was
quite a few ex-Connex slam door trains stabled in the station and
sidings. Quite why they couldn't have used those for the cycles is a
moot point. As it is I've emailed the Heart Foundation and Southern
with a strongly worded protest. I'm glad I didn't go on the ride
yesterday - I nearly did. But I'd have still been in Brighton by the
Monday with no way of getting home in time for work. Poor show all
round. CJB.

"Peter Masson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "dwb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > The issue here was that the rolling stock in place cannot cope with these
> > passengers,
> > even if you were to charge them £10 000 each.
> >
> > This is different to previous years, where it could.
> >
> There's a whole fleet of trains lying idle which would appear to be very
> suitable for conveying a large number of bikes from Brighton to London. I
> refer to the Class 325 postals. Unfortunately AIUI they can't couple to
> Southern Class 375/377 or to Southern/Thameslink Class 319, so the bikes
> would have had to go in separate trains. But it does seem ridiculous that so
> much potential revenue was rejected for lack of what should have been a very
> straightforward solution.
> Peter

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

JohnB wrote:

>>> ITYM "Travelling by train in the UK is almost always inconvenient,
>>> and with a bike it is a dead certainty that it will be
>>> inconvenient."

>> That's funny. I see people with bikes on many of the train journeys
>> that I make. They seldom seem to be inconvenienced.

> You don't live where I do though.
> Try travelling regularly on many of the SWT/Wessex routes and you have
> to book in advance and their are only two bike spaces.
> Then, if you are lucky, the space isn't full of luggage, train rubbish
> or at peak times sardines in suits.

Sure, but not every operator is as shitty as SWT. Your Operator May Vary,
as it were. I live on a FGW franchised route - they've also taken over the
(formerly perfectly adequate) Thames Trains franchise. The Western always
did run better than the rest ;-)

--
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

 

[Tumbleweed]

"Chris Brady" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Despite the introduction of new rolling stock - Southern / South
> Central / ex-Connex STILL have a number of the older slam door trains.
> So why they couldn't they have used these is a moot point. I nearly
> went on the L2B run on Sunday on the spur of the moment but am now
> glad that I didn't. Indeed without rail transport back to London I
> will NEVER go on it again. It seesm to me that once again a Railco has
> decided on an anti-cyclist stance. Travelling by train in the UK is a
> nightmare anyway - period - but with a bicycle its a total nightmare.
>
> Intersting that Southern is so profitable that it can turn away custom
> to the tune of £20 x 5,000 = £100,000
>
> CJB.
>
>
I thought it was funny to hear the commentator at the start, call the train
companies '****wits' in front of a crowd of about 5,000 people. Got a huge
cheer.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

 

[JohnB]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote:
>
> JohnB wrote:
>
> >>> ITYM "Travelling by train in the UK is almost always inconvenient,
> >>> and with a bike it is a dead certainty that it will be
> >>> inconvenient."
>
> >> That's funny. I see people with bikes on many of the train journeys
> >> that I make. They seldom seem to be inconvenienced.
>
> > You don't live where I do though.
> > Try travelling regularly on many of the SWT/Wessex routes and you have
> > to book in advance and their are only two bike spaces.
> > Then, if you are lucky, the space isn't full of luggage, train rubbish
> > or at peak times sardines in suits.
>
> Sure, but not every operator is as shitty as SWT.

Agreed, and some are worse.

> Your Operator May Vary,
> as it were. I live on a FGW franchised route - they've also taken over the
> (formerly perfectly adequate) Thames Trains franchise. The Western always
> did run better than the rest ;-)

I don't have An Operator.
Which emphasises one of the main problems of taking bikes on trains.
I often wish to make journeys that involve places served by companies
other than the one that serves my local station.

For example tomorrow I wish to use SWT and Wessex, so I will take a
folder because the hassle of booking a bike is too great.
On Friday I am taking SWT and GNER for a return journey which involves
one change. I have been given 14 separate card tickets. Crazy.

Standards vary so much across the country (and also within the companies
themselves) that almost any journey that involves more than one operator
becomes both difficult to book, and fraught with uncertainties over the service.
And that is before reliability is brought into the equation.

John B

 

[M.Whitson]

As this charity event was planned well in advance the organisers should
surely have negotiated with the train operators. They would then have
discovered that Southern would not be able to provide accommodation for the
returning cyclists. Could they not have turned to EWS and perhaps have hired
a special comprising 1, 2 or 3 325 units no longer used for postal traffic
or a loco hauled train of ex P.O. stock assuming it has not already gone for
scrap? (The cyclists would, of course, travel back by ordinary train and
collect their cycles at Victoria) Perhaps the organisers should consider
such an arrangement in future years. However, I think we can be sure that
such a solution would receive little support from the operators or NR.
Re carriage of cycles by train, I recently travelled on a SET rain which had
two guard's vans (it was one of those allegedly hated slam door trains which
provide for the carriage of cycles) I boarded the front unit, a CEP, only to
find that some useless ignorant fool had managed to get a full size bike in
the passenger saloon and had draped it over three seats of a four seat bay
thus leaving one seat for his own use. No wonder operators show a tendency
to want to ban the carriage of cycles altogether. Oh yes, I did advise the
guard of the idiots behaviour but whether he took any action I am unable to
say.
MJW

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:56:38 +0100, JohnB <[email protected]> wrote in
message <[email protected]>:

>Standards vary so much across the country (and also within the companies
>themselves) that almost any journey that involves more than one operator
>becomes both difficult to book, and fraught with uncertainties over the service.
>And that is before reliability is brought into the equation.

If you say so. I very rarely even have to change trains. Birmingham,
Cardiff, Oxford, Didcot and London are all direct services for me, and
they are the places I go.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

 

[Richard Bates]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:56:38 +0100, JohnB <[email protected]> wrote:

>For example tomorrow I wish to use SWT and Wessex, so I will take a
>folder because the hassle of booking a bike is too great.
>On Friday I am taking SWT and GNER for a return journey which involves
>one change. I have been given 14 separate card tickets. Crazy.

This morning I wanted to travel with a bicycle from Penzance to
Birmingham on a service which was run by Virgin.

The conversation at the ticket office approximately 60 minutes before
the train was due to depart went something like this:

"Good morning. I'd like a single to Birmingham with a bicycle please"

"You need to reserve your bike on the train or you won't be let on"

"Yes, I know, that's why I'm here"

"Oh. OK, let me have a look" ... <taps away at keyboard> ... "Oh I'm
sorry, reservations for this service have already closed"

"But is there room on the train?"

"Yes, there are three places still available"

"Then could I have one of them please?"

"No, I'm sorry, reservations for this service have been closed. They
close early so they can label the train"

"But cycle places don't get labelled"

"What I suggest you do is ask the train conductor if there is room"

"There *is* room - You've just told me there is.

"Yes, but I can't reserve one for you now. If you ask the conductor he
might still let you on without a reservation. What I suggest you do is
buy your ticket on the train"

"Can I buy a ticket anyway please"

"If you can't get on this train then the next train will be with first
great western and will be a different price. I suggest you ask the
conductor if he will let you on and then buy your ticket on the train"

***

30 minutes later, I had the following conversation with the bloke at
the ticket barrier

"Ticket please"

" I don't yet have one"

"You need to buy your ticket before you board the train"

"Yes, I know, but ...(insert story as above) ..."

"Well you don't get past me without a ticket"

***

I was infact allowed on the train, and nobody ever checked to see if I
held a cycle reservation (which in the end I didn't).
--
Young Musician of the Year 2004 was a fiddle

 

[Peter Masson]

"M.Whitson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Re carriage of cycles by train, I recently travelled on a SET rain which
had
> two guard's vans (it was one of those allegedly hated slam door trains
which
> provide for the carriage of cycles) I boarded the front unit, a CEP, only
to
> find that some useless ignorant fool had managed to get a full size bike
in
> the passenger saloon and had draped it over three seats of a four seat bay
> thus leaving one seat for his own use.

I recently saw a bike and rider emerge from a first class compartment of a
VEP. On the NLL cyclists ignore the injunction against cycling on the
platform - they cycle out of the train.
Peter
Peter

 

[Jack Taylor]

"M.Whitson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Could they not have turned to EWS and perhaps have hired
> a special comprising 1, 2 or 3 325 units no longer used for postal
traffic

No - because, as I pointed out in an earlier reply, the 325s are nothing to
do with EWS any more. They are *owned* by Royal Mail and EWS were only the
operator of them, until they chose to give up the business. Royal Mail
currently have them all in store, awaiting an agreement to be finalised with
another operator.

 

[Neil Williams]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:35:05 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[1] On one journey, they'd hugely oversold second class tickets.

To be fair, the railway does not "oversell" tickets in the same way as
an airline does. A fully-flexible ticket without reservation is valid
by any train as long as there is physically room to fit in, seated or
otherwise. You don't have to ask first; you just get on.

An end to this would mean a loss of the "guaranteed travel" aspect of
trains - that is, you wouldn't be able to turn up, buy a ticket and
more or less be guaranteed to get to your destination[1]. If that
happened, I'd not take my chances; I'd go by car. I suspect a lot of
people would be the same.

My journeys tend not to be planned far enough in advance to specify
which train I'm getting to a resolution any more detailed than which
day, and as such I've not bought a discounted advance-purchase,
non-flexible ticket in something like 3 years, and I've not reserved a
seat at all for about a year.

[1] Perhaps not at any specified time, but assuming no severe weather
conditions or strikes you will get there at some point...

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

In news:[email protected],
Peter Masson <[email protected]> typed:
> "M.Whitson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Re carriage of cycles by train, I recently travelled on a SET rain
>> which had two guard's vans (it was one of those allegedly hated slam
>> door trains which provide for the carriage of cycles) I boarded the
>> front unit, a CEP, only to find that some useless ignorant fool had
>> managed to get a full size bike in the passenger saloon and had
>> draped it over three seats of a four seat bay thus leaving one seat
>> for his own use.
>
> I recently saw a bike and rider emerge from a first class compartment
> of a VEP. On the NLL cyclists ignore the injunction against cycling
> on the platform - they cycle out of the train.

Any chance of explaining the acronyms for those of us from uk.rec.cycling?

A

 

[Mark South]

"Richard Bates" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

(agonising but familiar story)

> I was in fact allowed on the train, and nobody ever checked to see if I
> held a cycle reservation (which in the end I didn't).

Those of you who love statistics (you know who you are) should desist from
making blanket statements and attempt to discover the true situation. How
typical is Richard's inconvenience?
--
"The threads in your trousers are probably quite stable
dimensionally but you can deform the trousers quite happily."
- David Martin in uk.rec.cycling

 

[TP]

[email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
>
>Intersting that Southern is so profitable that it can turn away custom
>to the tune of £20 x 5,000 = £100,000


If the cost of providing that capacity is > £100,000, as seems likely,
Southern would be very foolish *not* to turn away these cyclists.

 

[TP]

[email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
>
>Yeah - and when we travelled from Chichester to Victoria the evening
>before we had to change at Barnham because one of the new trains had
>broken down. Eventually after 30 minutes delay (sans any form of
>announcements whatsoever) we travelled in an old ex-Connex yellow slam
>door train. As we went through Three Bridges we noticed that there was
>quite a few ex-Connex slam door trains stabled in the station and
>sidings. Quite why they couldn't have used those for the cycles is a
>moot point.


It isn't a moot point; it is very simple. Those trains are off lease,
and to put then back on lease would cost a lot more than any
additional revenue they would generate.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Richard Bates
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:56:38 +0100, JohnB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>For example tomorrow I wish to use SWT and Wessex, so I will take a
>>folder because the hassle of booking a bike is too great.
>>On Friday I am taking SWT and GNER for a return journey which involves
>>one change. I have been given 14 separate card tickets. Crazy.
>
> This morning I wanted to travel with a bicycle from Penzance to
> Birmingham on a service which was run by Virgin.
>
> The conversation at the ticket office approximately 60 minutes before
> the train was due to depart went something like this:
>
> "Good morning. I'd like a single to Birmingham with a bicycle please"

[snip: wholly believable story]

It's madness, isn't it? Come back British Rail, even the sandwiches are
forgiven!

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; when in the ****, the wise man plants courgettes

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Peter Clinch
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> The issue is that to get an old flatbed freight wagon, bolt bike
>> racks on it and couple it to the end of the train would cost all of,
>> ooooooh, maybe a couple of thousand nicker. But that would be an
>> innovative response to customer demand, and we can't have that.
>
> "In Business" on R4 last week was all about the change in business
> language, including how it's all changing from daring to do innovative
> things to making sure you never do anything much at all. The change
> from "passengers" to "customers" was singled out as removing the basic
> imperative of getting people where they want to go from the operating
> vernacular of transport companies.

Yes, I heard that, and it rang bells with me. I've always been intensely
irritated with the railway's use of the word 'customer'. I'm not buying
a product, I'm buying a journey.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Do not sail on uphill water.
- Bill Lee

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:43:34 +0200, "Mark South"
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>Those of you who love statistics (you know who you are) should desist from
>making blanket statements and attempt to discover the true situation. How
>typical is Richard's inconvenience?

Let me see.

- buy Virgin ticket via web with free bike reservation
- turn up at station
- put bike on voyager
- go to Brum, arriving bang on time


- buy FGW ticket at station
- put bike on HST
- go to London, arriving bang on time


- buy ticket at station
- put bike on first train, which is a voyager
- go to Oxford, arriving bang on time


All going well so far

Then there's the every day:
- turn up at station with season ticket
- put bike on train
- arrive at Dicot 20 minutes later
- ride to office

Maximum delay from scheduled time thus far: 3 minutes.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University