No trains for charity cyclists

[JohnB]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote:
>
> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:43:34 +0200, "Mark South"
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> <[email protected]>:
>
> >Those of you who love statistics (you know who you are) should desist from
> >making blanket statements and attempt to discover the true situation. How
> >typical is Richard's inconvenience?
>
> Let me see.
>
> - buy Virgin ticket via web with free bike reservation

Can you reserve bikes on the web now?
Last time I tried to book with virgin i was told I had to go to a
booking office (8 or15 miles away from home).
When I went there no bookings were being taken for any Virgin trains due
to possible timetable changes :-(
In the end I gave up.

John B

 

[Helen Deborah Vecht]

David Hansen <[email protected]>typed


> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:20:31 +0200 someone who may be "Mark South"
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-

> >ITYM "Travelling by train in the UK is almost always inconvenient,
> >and with a
> >bike it is a dead certainty that it will be inconvenient."

> That's funny. I see people with bikes on many of the train journeys
> that I make. They seldom seem to be inconvenienced.


I've just had a weekend in Edinburgh. Some poor cyclists had to wait
ages until allowed to load their bikes by the jobsworths, then walk
almost the full length of the train to zoo class for their seats. They
then had the reverse palaver at Waverley.

I *really* can't walk fast and I was well into the taxi queue by the
time the cyclists could move off with their bikes. (The GNER trains have
their First Class coaches by the Kings Cross buffers, placing posh
passengers at the front of the taxi queue at Edinburgh)

A 'stag' party boarded the train at Darlington (on the outward jouney),
bearing beer crates; we had two hours of unrlenting noise & sexist
comments. The toilets ran out of water because of excessive use. due to
staff shortage, there was no at-seat trolley service, meaning a long
walk (for my partner) from coach C to the buffet in coach J whenever we
needed anything. The whole journey was simply horrible. If I weren't
somewhat 'green', I'd seriously consider flying next time...

Our return jouney was much better; everyone quiet and well-behaved. At
least one toilet was out of order though. We were running well until we
were just outside Peterborough. We were then held up for 3/4 hour.

I needed the Ladies when I arrived at Kings Cross. I struggled down the
stairs, put my 20p in the turnstile & found half the cubicles cordoned
off. The first lady to vacate an available cubicle apologised for being
unable to flush the loo. There was no seat on this delightful
'convenience' but the door did close and there was loo paper, so it
wasn't *too* bad. I was able to flush, which would suggest to me that
the cisterns do not fill up fast enough to to cope with the station's
heavy demands. I don't think this is acceptable...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
Edgware.

 

[JohnB]

Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> in message <[email protected]>, Richard Bates
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 19:56:38 +0100, JohnB <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>For example tomorrow I wish to use SWT and Wessex, so I will take a
> >>folder because the hassle of booking a bike is too great.
> >>On Friday I am taking SWT and GNER for a return journey which involves
> >>one change. I have been given 14 separate card tickets. Crazy.
> >
> > This morning I wanted to travel with a bicycle from Penzance to
> > Birmingham on a service which was run by Virgin.
> >
> > The conversation at the ticket office approximately 60 minutes before
> > the train was due to depart went something like this:
> >
> > "Good morning. I'd like a single to Birmingham with a bicycle please"
>
> [snip: wholly believable story]
>
> It's madness, isn't it? Come back British Rail, even the sandwiches are
> forgiven!

I'm really starting to dread tomorrow's train journeys.
In the morning its home - Andover and back (take Brommie)
In the afternoon, Home - Salisbury - Romsey - <unknown yet> - Home.
(take Bike Friday).

John B

 

[MartinM]

"Tumbleweed" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Chris Brady" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Despite the introduction of new rolling stock - Southern / South
> > Central / ex-Connex STILL have a number of the older slam door trains.
> > So why they couldn't they have used these is a moot point. I nearly
> > went on the L2B run on Sunday on the spur of the moment but am now
> > glad that I didn't. Indeed without rail transport back to London I
> > will NEVER go on it again. It seesm to me that once again a Railco has
> > decided on an anti-cyclist stance. Travelling by train in the UK is a
> > nightmare anyway - period - but with a bicycle its a total nightmare.
> >
> > Intersting that Southern is so profitable that it can turn away custom
> > to the tune of £20 x 5,000 = £100,000
> >
> > CJB.
> >
> >
> I thought it was funny to hear the commentator at the start, call the train
> companies '****wits' in front of a crowd of about 5,000 people. Got a huge
> cheer.

He is quite a character, the first time I did it he was reading out
memo's ten to the dozen (pre mobile phones then) and without thinking
read out " please could ****** just say that the man with the
microphone is a total ****" !
some more of his quotes;
" it's not a race, we don't want you all making a big peleton- that's
a nice french word; meaning; peleton"
" if you get hungry en route don't worry, it is possible to eat a
Brook's saddle"

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Neil Williams
('[email protected]') wrote:

> My journeys tend not to be planned far enough in advance to specify
> which train I'm getting to a resolution any more detailed than which
> day, and as such I've not bought a discounted advance-purchase,
> non-flexible ticket in something like 3 years, and I've not reserved a
> seat at all for about a year.

Yup, but in that case it's reasonable that people who have planned in
advance and booked in advance and paid a very substantial premium price
should get priority on the seats they have actually booked.

Mind you, in the case of the train where the very harassed young female
guard refused to eject the young man who was occupying my seat, I don't
entirely blame her - tensions were running very high and she thought (I
think reasonably) that she might have had a near riot on her hands.

But I say again, this is *not* a way to run a railroad.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

The Conservative Party now has the support of a smaller proportion of
the electorate in Scotland than Sinn Fein have in Northern Ireland.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, TP
('[email protected]') wrote:

> [email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
>>
>>Intersting that Southern is so profitable that it can turn away custom
>>to the tune of £20 x 5,000 = £100,000
>
> If the cost of providing that capacity is > £100,000, as seems likely,
> Southern would be very foolish *not* to turn away these cyclists.

If the cost of not providing that capacity is to alienate 5,000
potential repeat customers, then a hundred thousand pounds outlay
begins to look like very small beer. It is, after all, highly probable
that the people who took part in the L2B this year between them spend
ten million pounds or more per year on commuting.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; lovely alternative to rice.

 

[MIG]

Bryan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Dwb wrote:
> > NewsReader wrote:
> > >> Intersting that Southern is so profitable that it can turn away
> > >> custom to the tune of £20 x 5,000 = £100,000
> > >
> > > Of course, the question could also be asked (I really *am* agnostic on
> > > this topic) as to what the economic fare that should be for cyclists
> > > on trains, since simple logic suggests the footprint required for a
> > > passenger and accompanying bicycle is inevitably much greater than
> > > that of of a normal passenger ....
> > I would like to think most cyclists wouldn't mind paying a premium to be
> > able to take their bike with them (that premium to be decided)
> > The issue here was that the rolling stock in place cannot cope with
> > these passengers, even if you were to charge them £10 000 each.
> > This is different to previous years, where it could.
>
>
>
> The problem seems to be that new rolling stock is not being designed
> with anyone in mind but commuters. Anyone travelled ona Virgin Voyager
> over christmas? Poor shop bloke on my train was ordered to close the
> shop and take the trolley up and down the carriages, and managed to get
> 2 rows in when he was confronted by bags in the aisle. The reason, there
> are no luggage spaces at the end of these carraiges and the above head
> space is 9 inches high! Seems we not only have no integrated transport
> prolicy, we have no policy in place to accommodate passengers!
>
> Bryan
>

The funny thing is how on routes where there is always a huge, empty
DVT, purely to comply with safety requirements, they still allow
hardly any bikes per train, when they could probably carry at least
50.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, TP
('[email protected]') wrote:

> [email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
>>
>>Yeah - and when we travelled from Chichester to Victoria the evening
>>before we had to change at Barnham because one of the new trains had
>>broken down. Eventually after 30 minutes delay (sans any form of
>>announcements whatsoever) we travelled in an old ex-Connex yellow slam
>>door train. As we went through Three Bridges we noticed that there was
>>quite a few ex-Connex slam door trains stabled in the station and
>>sidings. Quite why they couldn't have used those for the cycles is a
>>moot point.
>
> It isn't a moot point; it is very simple. Those trains are off lease,
> and to put then back on lease would cost a lot more than any
> additional revenue they would generate.

That is the *stupidest* excuse of all. If the trains are there, standing
idle, and the passengers are there needing the service they can
provide, and the management system is so baroque that they can't be
deployed, then it's time to sack the managers.

Just renationalise the lot and let's get back to a railway system which
actually works, rather than the present crazy beurocratic morass.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

 

[TP]

Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:

>That is the *stupidest* excuse of all. If the trains are there, standing
>idle, and the passengers are there needing the service they can
>provide, and the management system is so baroque that they can't be
>deployed, then it's time to sack the managers.
>
>Just renationalise the lot and let's get back to a railway system which
>actually works, rather than the present crazy beurocratic morass.


I agree. I was merely explaining the status quo, not defending it.

After all, it is indefensible.

;-)

 

[TP]

Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>If the cost of not providing that capacity is to alienate 5,000
>potential repeat customers, then a hundred thousand pounds outlay
>begins to look like very small beer. It is, after all, highly probable
>that the people who took part in the L2B this year between them spend
>ten million pounds or more per year on commuting.


Alienating 5,000 commuters or potential commuters is something the
railways do every day of the week, many times over.

People don't commute by choice, they do it because they have to. No
amount of marketing is going to make any difference.

 

[mark]

"JohnB" wrote

> Can you reserve bikes on the web now?
> Last time I tried to book with virgin i was told I had to go to a
> booking office (8 or15 miles away from home).
> When I went there no bookings were being taken for any Virgin trains due
> to possible timetable changes :-(
> In the end I gave up.

When I booked my Caledonian Sleeper ticket online the National Rail and
ScotRail websites had no options for reserving a space or my bike. I ended
up calling the US toll free number, getting connected to someone in the UK,
and spending about 15 minutes getting a reservation or my bike.I thought
this was pretty good value for a train ticket that cost me GBP19, but I'm
not sure how the accounting types at ScotRail felt about it .

 

[[Not Responding]]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:35:05 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
wrote:

>in message <[email protected]>, Ambrose Nankivell
>('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> In news:[email protected],
>> Chris Brady <[email protected]> typed:
>>> Travelling by train in the UK is a
>>> nightmare anyway - period - but with a bicycle its a total nightmare.
>>
>> ITYM travelling by train in the UK can be inconvenient, and with a
>> bike it may often be inconvenient.
>
>Nightmare. Such A Bloody Experience Never Again...

Hate to disagree but I've been doing trains for a while now and can
only say it beats driving hands down. In the past year I was delayed
by, um, all of twenty minutes once.

Last time I drove long distance I spent 4 hours on the M25.

OK, I've not taken a bike with me but there seem to be plenty of
people who do.

 

[[Not Responding]]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:08:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
wrote:

>in message <[email protected]>, TP
>('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> [email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
>>>
>>>Yeah - and when we travelled from Chichester to Victoria the evening
>>>before we had to change at Barnham because one of the new trains had
>>>broken down. Eventually after 30 minutes delay (sans any form of
>>>announcements whatsoever) we travelled in an old ex-Connex yellow slam
>>>door train. As we went through Three Bridges we noticed that there was
>>>quite a few ex-Connex slam door trains stabled in the station and
>>>sidings. Quite why they couldn't have used those for the cycles is a
>>>moot point.
>>
>> It isn't a moot point; it is very simple. Those trains are off lease,
>> and to put then back on lease would cost a lot more than any
>> additional revenue they would generate.
>
>That is the *stupidest* excuse of all. If the trains are there, standing
>idle, and the passengers are there needing the service they can
>provide, and the management system is so baroque that they can't be
>deployed, then it's time to sack the managers.
>
>Just renationalise the lot and let's get back to a railway system which
>actually works, rather than the present crazy beurocratic morass.

Don't blame the managers. Remember that the level of service is set by
Govt. If the service spec that was competed included "bike trains run
at a loss", you'd have them.

All renationalising would achieve would be *more* decisions like this
made by the same govt. Oh, and no sacking of anyone however
incompetant IME of govt employment. And no incentivisation of good,
successful practices.

While you may have legit complaints about the railway system, a
kneejerk nationalisation would only make things far, far worse.

 

[John Hearns]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:15:26 +0100, M.Whitson wrote:

>
> Re carriage of cycles by train, I recently travelled on a SET rain which had
> two guard's vans (it was one of those allegedly hated slam door trains which
> provide for the carriage of cycles)
Allegedly hated?
And where exactly is the location for wheelchair travellers on these
trains...

 

[vernon levy]

> >>> Travelling by train in the UK is a
> >>> nightmare anyway - period - but with a bicycle its a total nightmare.
> >>
> >> ITYM travelling by train in the UK can be inconvenient, and with a
> >> bike it may often be inconvenient.
> >
> >Nightmare. Such A Bloody Experience Never Again...
>
Could'nt disagree more. I have found the train services in Northern England
to be superb, on time, manned by professional caring staff and tremandous
value for money. Never had a problem getting abike on a train. Well done
the various train operating companies who operate in my neck of the woods.

Vernon in Leeds

 

[A.C.P.Crawshaw]

JohnB wrote:
>
> Can you reserve bikes on the web now?

You could until sometime last year, but only on Virgin's Trainline site.
Then Virgin withdrew the bike reservation option.
Now I have to queue at my local station.

Sigh

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, [Not
Responding] ('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:35:05 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>in message <[email protected]>, Ambrose Nankivell
>>('[email protected]') wrote:
>>
>>> In news:[email protected],
>>> Chris Brady <[email protected]> typed:
>>>> Travelling by train in the UK is a
>>>> nightmare anyway - period - but with a bicycle its a total
>>>> nightmare.
>>>
>>> ITYM travelling by train in the UK can be inconvenient, and with a
>>> bike it may often be inconvenient.
>>
>>Nightmare. Such A Bloody Experience Never Again...
>
> Hate to disagree but I've been doing trains for a while now and can
> only say it beats driving hands down.

Hey, I'm not arguing about that. I wouldn't drive to London, either. But
it will take a lot to persuade me to get on an Inter City (or whatever
it's called now) train again. At least a Virgin one; the only times
I've travelled on GNER in the past five years the service was OK, but I
don't often travel on the east coast. I'm old enough[1] to remember
when trains in this country were both affordable and reasonably
reliable, and when they were largely manned by people who had a service
ethos (although to be fair, a lot of those people are still there).

The sandwiches were awful, of course.

[1] I can *just* remember travelling on a steam-powered Flying Scotsman.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing left for us to do
but pick up the pieces.

 

[Mark South]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:43:34 +0200, "Mark South"
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> <[email protected]>:
>
> >Those of you who love statistics (you know who you are) should desist from
> >making blanket statements and attempt to discover the true situation. How
> >typical is Richard's inconvenience?
>
> Let me see.
>
> - buy Virgin ticket via web with free bike reservation
> - turn up at station
> - put bike on voyager
> - go to Brum, arriving bang on time
>
>
> - buy FGW ticket at station
> - put bike on HST
> - go to London, arriving bang on time
>
>
> - buy ticket at station
> - put bike on first train, which is a voyager
> - go to Oxford, arriving bang on time
>
> All going well so far
>
> Then there's the every day:
> - turn up at station with season ticket
> - put bike on train
> - arrive at Dicot 20 minutes later
> - ride to office
>
> Maximum delay from scheduled time thus far: 3 minutes.

This is the trains equivalent of a single "helmet saved my skull" anecdote. So
they appear to work for you on a small range of routes. Good. But you would
reject such reasoning elsewhere.

My experience of British trains is the opposite of yours entirely. In fact,
after I made a remark about how inconvenient train travel in the UK is, the
various opinions that were expressed were in both strong agreement and strong
disagreement.

Now, what's the average experience like?
--
"Since you must keep improving, a $5 bike offers a lot more opportunities
to improve it, and can be improved cheaper. It's expensive to improve on
a $2000 bike." - Rick Onanian in rec.bicycles.tech

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

Mark South wrote:

> This is the trains equivalent of a single "helmet saved my skull"
> anecdote. So they appear to work for you on a small range of routes.
> Good. But you would reject such reasoning elsewhere.

This proves that "trains are always ****" is false, though.

I have yet to have a bad experience of train travel that I can remember.

> Now, what's the average experience like?

Average, I expect

--
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

 

[Mark South]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark South wrote:
>
> > This is the trains equivalent of a single "helmet saved my skull"
> > anecdote. So they appear to work for you on a small range of routes.
> > Good. But you would reject such reasoning elsewhere.
>
> This proves that "trains are always ****" is false, though.

Would a single ancedote of "helmet saved my skull" convince you that "helmets
are a con" is false?

> I have yet to have a bad experience of train travel that I can remember.

Oh come on now! That's one of too smug to be acceptable, too naive to be
believable, too drug-addled to be capable of remembering, or simply fabrication
for the sake of contrariness.

> > Now, what's the average experience like?
>
> Average, I expect

Oh, logical discussion defeated by the use of biting wit.
--
"You are the most stupid asshole I have yet encountered on this newsgroup.
Congratulations. That is no small achievement as there are many other
stupid assholes on this newsgroup. But they can't hold a candle to you."
- Ed Dolan in alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent