No trains for charity cyclists



In article <[email protected]>,
David Hansen <> wrote:
> Historically one would get a ticket to London Paddington from
> Birmingham Snow Hill, but there should be no problem in getting one
> from the rival Birmingham New Street station these days.


Are there actually any direct trains between them, though? I don't
think there are. Voyagers or no. I'm curious to know _how_ someone
travelled from Birmingham to London on a Voyager.

ian
 
In article <[email protected]>, JohnB <[email protected]> wrote:
> 1 Adult Out Home - Destination, marked as "Two-Part Return"
> 1 Seat Out Home - Waterloo, marked as a "Seat"
> 1 Cycle Out Home - Waterloo, marked as a "Seat" AND also marked "Attach
> to Cycle"
> 1 Cycle Out Home - Waterloo, marked as a "Seat" and also marked
> "Passenger Copy"
> 1 Seat Out KingsX - Destination, marked as "Mandatory Reservation Coupon
> 1 of 3"
> 1 Cycle Out KingsX - Destination, marked as a "Seat" AND also marked
> "Attach to Cycle"
> 1 Cycle Out KingsX - Destination, marked as a "Seat" and also marked
> "Passenger Copy"
>
> Then double the above for the return = 14 tickets.
> Then one child the same = 28 tickets.


Which is absolutely, utterly ludicrous. No one can defend that sort of
stupidity.

ian
 
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:49:02 +0100, TP <[email protected]> wrote (more or
less):

>Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>If the cost of not providing that capacity is to alienate 5,000
>>potential repeat customers, then a hundred thousand pounds outlay
>>begins to look like very small beer. It is, after all, highly probable
>>that the people who took part in the L2B this year between them spend
>>ten million pounds or more per year on commuting.

>
>
>Alienating 5,000 commuters or potential commuters is something the
>railways do every day of the week, many times over.
>
>People don't commute by choice, they do it because they have to. No
>amount of marketing is going to make any difference.


People choose to commute.

When my wife and I worked in the SouthEast, we could have lived in
Richmond, and we'd both have had a easy commute.

My wife instead chose that we'd live just by her work, and that I
would commute.

When we moved, we chose to live somewhere that was walkable/cyclable
from loads of employers.

We could have, instead, chosen a cheaper town to live in, and spent
money each year on extra cars, train trips etc.


--
Cheers,
Euan
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On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Peter Clinch wrote:

> Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>
> > Folding bikes, suitably folded, are "luggage" - they don't need a
> > policy.

>
> I know that, and you know that, but if the guard responsible for the
> train that's meant to leave in 2 minutes with a few hundred people
> already compressed into it doesn't know that the knowledge may prove of
> little use.


I bought the cover and saddle bag for my Brompton to deal with this sort
of problem. Put the cover on and it really does look like luggage. The
bag is a also a good place to keep a spanner and puncture repair kit.

--
Jose Marques
 
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:35:18 +0000 (UTC), Ian G Batten
<[email protected]> wrote:
>think there are. Voyagers or no. I'm curious to know _how_ someone
>travelled from Birmingham to London on a Voyager.


Maybe it was actually a similar looking pendolino?

--
Young Musician of the Year 2004 was a fiddle
 
Ian G Batten wrote:

> Which is absolutely, utterly ludicrous. No one can defend that sort of
> stupidity.


The folk supplying card stock and printing ink to the train companies
probably /love/ it! ;-/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Peter Clinch wrote:

> Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>
> > Folding bikes, suitably folded, are "luggage" - they don't need a
> > policy.

>
> I know that, and you know that, but if the guard responsible for the
> train that's meant to leave in 2 minutes with a few hundred people
> already compressed into it doesn't know that the knowledge may prove of
> little use.


I see your point. Maybe there needs to be a policy for luggage, then :-}
Including folded bikes in the definition of what's included.

"Cats is dogs, and rabbits is dogs, and so's parrots. But this 'ere
tortoise is an insect, so there ain't no charge,"

SCNR.
 
Ian G Batten wrote:

>> Historically one would get a ticket to London Paddington from
>> Birmingham Snow Hill, but there should be no problem in getting one
>> from the rival Birmingham New Street station these days.


> Are there actually any direct trains between them, though? I don't
> think there are. Voyagers or no. I'm curious to know _how_ someone
> travelled from Birmingham to London on a Voyager.


Dunno. Most of the ones I've travelled on go into a dead-end platform
thingy at Reading, and back out onto the Southampton line. But there is no
technical reason why a train which arrives at Reading should not go on to
Paddington, I suppose, unless it's a franchise thing?

--
Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk
 
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:35:18 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ian G
Batten <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I'm curious to know _how_ someone
>travelled from Birmingham to London on a Voyager.


Before Operation Princess there was a train from Waverley to
Paddington. I assume this went via New Street and it might be that
the other person travelled on it when Voyagers were being settled
in. However, that is a long shot.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:17:15 +0100 someone who may be "Tony Raven"
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>> Except that the trains were no faster (and often slower) and no more
>> reliable than under BR.

>
>That wasn't my experience prior to Hatfield though it absolutely is
>post-Hatfield


Which train services are you thinking of?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
 
David Hansen wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:17:15 +0100 someone who may be "Tony Raven"
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>> Except that the trains were no faster (and often slower) and no more
>>> reliable than under BR.

>>
>> That wasn't my experience prior to Hatfield though it absolutely is
>> post-Hatfield

>
> Which train services are you thinking of?


Two in the main, WAGN services into London (badly hit by Hatfield and Potter's
Bar I know) and Virgin services on the West Coast from Southampton, Euston,
Milton Keynes to Manchester, Oxenholme or Preston.

Tony
 
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
wrote:

>But surely part of the reason for being deliberately obstructive to
>people who want to travel with bikes is so that in a few years they can
>say 'but there's no demand for it' and withdraw the service altogether?


While it's been discouraged before, I doubt that would be politically
very sensible these days.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain
 
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:36:30 +0000 (UTC), Ian G Batten
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Which is absolutely, utterly ludicrous. No one can defend that sort of
>stupidity.


Deutsche Bahn used to be worse. A simple IC return journey would
result in 5 tickets as follows:-

1xsingle piece return ticket
2xreservations
2xInterCity-Zuschlaege (supplement tickets).

The thing that made *this* worse was the fact that these were
large-format tickets, on which the full information could *definitely*
have been included.

All that said, I'd rather have a small stack of credit-card sized
tickets than one or two large-format ones, because at least they fit
my wallet.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain
 
Neil Williams wrote:
>
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >But surely part of the reason for being deliberately obstructive to
> >people who want to travel with bikes is so that in a few years they can
> >say 'but there's no demand for it' and withdraw the service altogether?

>
> While it's been discouraged before, I doubt that would be politically
> very sensible these days.


If you look at the SRA Draft Policy presently out for consultation
you'll quickly see they are trying to withdraw on-train service by the
back door - by promoting the installation of cycle parking at stations
then claiming they are catering for cyclists.
There is no commitment to increase combined cycle/rail journeys.

I urge everyone to get writing NOW requesting that on-train cycle
carriage be improved and extended to:

Richard Bowker
Chairman & Chief Executive
Strategic Rail Authority
55 Victoria Street
London SW1H 0EU

John B
 
In article <[email protected]>, JohnB <[email protected]> writes
>> >On Friday I am taking SWT and GNER for a return journey which involves
>> >one change.

>> Since there is no station served by both SWT and GNER, it must involve
>> at least two changes.

>The change is from Waterloo to Kings Cross which I would cycle.


I'd still view that as two changes, but never mind.

>> You've said this before. Would you care to list these 14 cards?


>For one person:
>
>1 Adult Out Home - Destination, marked as "Two-Part Return"
>1 Seat Out Home - Waterloo, marked as a "Seat"
>1 Cycle Out Home - Waterloo, marked as a "Seat" AND also marked "Attach
>to Cycle"
>1 Cycle Out Home - Waterloo, marked as a "Seat" and also marked
>"Passenger Copy"
>1 Seat Out KingsX - Destination, marked as "Mandatory Reservation Coupon
>1 of 3"
>1 Cycle Out KingsX - Destination, marked as a "Seat" AND also marked
>"Attach to Cycle"
>1 Cycle Out KingsX - Destination, marked as a "Seat" and also marked
>"Passenger Copy"
>
>Then double the above for the return = 14 tickets.


Hmm.

So one ticket, two reservations, two cycle tags and two duplicates
thereof.

>It was amusing watching all of these chuntering off the ticket machine
>when all the information could have been incorporated onto a single ticket.
>
>When a ticket inspector asks for my tickets on the train I'll just hand
>him/her the whole lot and say "over to you" ;-)


Well, surely two of them ought to be attached to the cycle, wherever it
is?

Are these standard APTIS (credit-card size) tickets? If so, there isn't
room for a vast amount of information.

--
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Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: <[email protected]>
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: <[email protected]>
 
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> in message <[email protected]>, Tony Miles
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
> > "Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> in message <[email protected]>, TP
> >> ('[email protected]') wrote:
> >>
> >> > It isn't a moot point; it is very simple. Those trains are off
> >> > lease, and to put then back on lease would cost a lot more than any
> >> > additional revenue they would generate.
> >>
> >> That is the *stupidest* excuse of all. If the trains are there,
> >> standing idle, and the passengers are there needing the service they
> >> can provide, and the management system is so baroque that they can't
> >> be deployed, then it's time to sack the managers.
> >>
> >> Just renationalise the lot and let's get back to a railway system
> >> which actually works, rather than the present crazy beurocratic
> >> morass.

> >
> > That may be the stupidest comment of all...
> >
> > The withdrawn trains would need costly overhauls - even to run once if
> > they had run out of miles between overhauls or examinations.
> > The same rules would have applied under British Rail - a withdrawn
> > train without a certificate to run could not be used.
> >
> > Its not "baroque" - it is the equivalent of using a car without an
> > MOT. which isn't legal even once - ther would be no insurance cover
> > apart from anything else.

>
> OK, we'll go over this very slowly for the hard of learning.
>
> People want to travel. They have many means of travel, one of which is
> railways. If they choose to travel by railway, the railway gets money
> from its passengers and from the taxpayer. If they don't choose to
> travel by railway, the railway doesn't get any money and it goes out of
> business.
>
> Got that?
>
> So, how do we persuade people to think that railways are efficient,
> flexible ways to travel? When there's an unusual but high profile event
> which means that the railway is faced with an unusual number of
> POTENTIAL PAYING PASSENGERS with special needs, do we
>
> (1) Score a public relations and publicity win by laying on a special
> train to take those people's MONEY, or do we
>
> (2) Dig through the rulebooks and the legalese to find some way of
> saying we can't?
>
> It completely beggars belief that on the whole island of Britain there
> wasn't one properly maintained flexible use freight car which Southern
> could have hired for the day. If there wasn't then that in itself
> reflects on Southern's management because this isn't the only occasion
> in the year when the railways have opportunities to attract new users
> by being flexible.


Sorry but unfortunately that's not the way it works these days.
 
"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> of wrote:

>In news:[email protected],
>David Nutter <[email protected]> typed:
>> Voyagers are dreadful creations. No luggage space in the carriages,
>> doors that bite you if you stray too close, noisy diesel engines
>> under the carriage floor, an omnipresent smell of drains and the
>> stench of burning brake shoe every time the rattletrap monstrosity
>> stops.

>
>OTOH, the seats are somewhat small. It's advisable to avoid the ones at the
>end of the coach labelled with (Disabled) Priority Seat, so that it's empty
>when I want to use it.


The seats are a very different shape to those on the old rolling stock. The
seat part is considerably higher. The distance between it and the floor is
too high for me (5'1") so I can't actually put my feet on the floor. This
gets very uncomfortable after a short time, and is absolutely unsustainable
over a long journey. So instead of making a monthly trip from Manchester to
Hampshire by train, which I liked, now I fly, which I loathe.
--
Marriage is a wonderful invention; but, then again,
so is a bicycle repair kit. - Billy Connolly
Steph Peters delete invalid from [email protected]lid
Tatting, lace & stitching page <http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/index.htm>
 
"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>
> > Folding bikes, suitably folded, are "luggage" - they don't need a
> > policy.

>
> I know that, and you know that, but if the guard responsible for the
> train that's meant to leave in 2 minutes with a few hundred people
> already compressed into it doesn't know that the knowledge may prove of
> little use.
>
> > Is there a specific policy for wheeled suitcases? If not, why not?
> > Golf trolleys? Etc. Hence or otherwise deduce...

>
> A pal once took his tandem on a train by wrapping it in cardboard. That
> made it even more space-filling than it was to start with, but by
> levering the Small Print he got a result.


ISTR reading somewhere (possibly here) that disguising your bike as a surfboard
made it impossible to reject.

Some ingenuity with a folding fairing should do the trick, should it not?
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, TP
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>>
>> It isn't a moot point; it is very simple. Those trains are off
>> lease, and to put then back on lease would cost a lot more than any
>> additional revenue they would generate.

>
> That is the *stupidest* excuse of all. If the trains are there,
> standing idle, and the passengers are there needing the service they
> can provide, and the management system is so baroque that they can't
> be deployed, then it's time to sack the managers.
>
> Just renationalise the lot and let's get back to a railway system
> which actually works, rather than the present crazy beurocratic
> morass.


Which managers would you sack? It's the Government that made the rules,
it's the government that "sold" (gave away more like) the stock to the
leasing companies and it's the government that set the rules requiring
that stock off lease loses it's certification to run and therefore it's
safety case. I cannot lease a unit for one day. I can get short term
leases of 3 months or so. With certification costs, (engineering
acceptance, design acceptance, construction acceptance and VMOI)
possibly a tad under £30,000 for a single 4 car mk1 emu. How many such
vehicles would be needed? Who would you like to pay for it? I can no
more run an uncertificated train than I can an unregistered bus or carry
passengers in an aircraft without Cof A.
Renationalise the lot? That will solve everything of course. Maybe
someone should write to Alistair Darling and suggest it.
In the meantime ready for next year, I would urge the organisers of this
cycle ride to contact Southern and suggest that an approach be made to
Wessex/Fragonset/EWS and get estimates for the provision of a train or
two capable of carrying cyclists. In a similar way to Wessex today
providing two rakes of loco hauled stock with 31s between Swindon and
Castle Cary for Glastonbury, (and FGW with two 47s and LHCS) such
flexibility may be a better solution than trying to cram onto modern emu
stock.
 
"Mark South" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ISTR reading somewhere (possibly here) that disguising your bike as a

surfboard
> made it impossible to reject.
>
> Some ingenuity with a folding fairing should do the trick, should it not?
> --
> Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen
>
>

A friend of mine once got a windsurfer on an Aer Lingus flight as hand
baggage..........

G