No trains for charity cyclists

[Ambrose Nankivell]

In news:[email protected],
Bryan <[email protected]> typed:
>
> Yebbut, what you can't get on a Voyger is all the passengers and their
> luggage going from London To Birmingham for Christmas (in my
> experience anyway)
>
Particularly as they don't run Voyagers between London & Birmingham
(except Paddington)

Certainly it was bad over Christmas 2002 (first year of Voyagers). Didn't
travel much last Christmas, so I can't compare it with that.

A

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

In news:[email protected],
Mark South <[email protected]> typed:
> To be accurate, I did not start it. My line quoted below was
> preceded by "ITYM".
>
>> "Travelling by train in the UK is almost always inconvenient, and
>> with a bike it is a dead certainty that it will be inconvenient."

Although you were saying what you thought I meant, which is demonstrably not
true.

A

 

[Tony Miles]

"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> in message <[email protected]>, TP
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
> > [email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
> >>
> >>Yeah - and when we travelled from Chichester to Victoria the evening
> >>before we had to change at Barnham because one of the new trains had
> >>broken down. Eventually after 30 minutes delay (sans any form of
> >>announcements whatsoever) we travelled in an old ex-Connex yellow slam
> >>door train. As we went through Three Bridges we noticed that there was
> >>quite a few ex-Connex slam door trains stabled in the station and
> >>sidings. Quite why they couldn't have used those for the cycles is a
> >>moot point.
> >
> > It isn't a moot point; it is very simple. Those trains are off lease,
> > and to put then back on lease would cost a lot more than any
> > additional revenue they would generate.
>
> That is the *stupidest* excuse of all. If the trains are there, standing
> idle, and the passengers are there needing the service they can
> provide, and the management system is so baroque that they can't be
> deployed, then it's time to sack the managers.
>
> Just renationalise the lot and let's get back to a railway system which
> actually works, rather than the present crazy beurocratic morass.

That may be the stupidest comment of all...

The withdrawn trains would need costly overhauls - even to run once if they
had run out of miles between overhauls or examinations.
The same rules would have applied under British Rail - a withdrawn train
without a certificate to run could not be used.

Its not "baroque" - it is the equivalent of using a car without an MOT.
which isn't legal even once - ther would be no insurance cover apart from
anything else.

The point is that the railway companies exist to provide passenger
services - and they have enough trains for that. Jamming the cycles in as
they did in the past on the old trains tended to damage the interiors and
involve costly cleaning - or they get sued by Monday commuters who get oil
on the nice suits etc.
Not what we want on our new trains which need to be in a fit state for 30
years.

I spoke to "Southern" about this yesterday. Over a year ago they spoke to
the charity concerned and told them that they wouldn't be able to carry
bikes from this year. The charity understood completely and has publicised
this in the build up to the event.

Both the charity and Southern issued notices reminding cyclists they
couldn't carry all the bikes any more before this year's event - if some
cyclists didn't read it then that may be their problem.

Given the length of time in the run up there was plenty of time to hire some
empty vans to take the bikes back by road (okay, not good for the railways,
but it was a solution) and in fact why weren't some lorry operators asked to
donate the transport as part of the charity even, allowing the cyclists to
give their train fares to the charity? The lorry owners could probably have
written the cost off as a charitable donation etc. and got a tax rebate -
and got some free publicity!

TM

 

[Steph Peters]

"vernon levy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>> Travelling by train in the UK is a
>> >>> nightmare anyway - period - but with a bicycle its a total nightmare.
>> >>
>> >> ITYM travelling by train in the UK can be inconvenient, and with a
>> >> bike it may often be inconvenient.
>> >
>> >Nightmare. Such A Bloody Experience Never Again...
>>
>Could'nt disagree more. I have found the train services in Northern England
>to be superb, on time, manned by professional caring staff and tremandous
>value for money. Never had a problem getting abike on a train. Well done
>the various train operating companies who operate in my neck of the woods.

Today I did a bike-train-bike commute to a training course out in the
countryside - Cranage in Cheshire. I rang First North Western who
efficiently informed me that I didn't have to pay to take a bike, yes there
was bike space on each train, no I didn't have to book in advance and the
trains I wanted were running despite closure of the main Manchester to
Stockport line. Great I thought. So this morning I cycled to Cheadle Hulme
station. The ticket office couldn't tell me where on the train the bike
space would be. They said the on train staff would know, but when it only
stops for a short time that's no use. So I got on and found I wasn't in a
carriage with bike space, and nor were the 2 other cyclists in the carriage.
Eventually the ticket collector told me that the bike space is 'usually' in
the middle carriage of the three on these trains, but it isn't marked! He
also insisted that I had to get off at the next stop and put my bike in the
space in the correct carriage. The space turned out to be some fold up
seats which are really intended for wheelchair users.
--
Borg Collection Agency: Pay up or be assimilated!
Steph Peters delete invalid from [email protected]lid
Tatting, lace & stitching page <http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/index.htm>

 

[Neil Williams]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:40:24 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Why not just wheel the bike up to the ticket office (OK, that's a climb up
>steps, but...) and ask them for a bike reservation on the next Virgin train?

These can only be issued 2 hours or more before departure from the
origin, IIRC. Were it not for this, I'd use train+bike for
long-distance travel a lot more often.

There could really do with being a secondary reservation system,
perhaps accessible by phone, web or WAP/text, allowing bike
reservation right up to departure with an encrypted ID code being
issued for the reservation.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To e-mail use neil at the above domain

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

In news:[email protected],
Neil Williams <[email protected]> typed:
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:40:24 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Why not just wheel the bike up to the ticket office (OK, that's a
>> climb up steps, but...) and ask them for a bike reservation on the
>> next Virgin train?
>
> These can only be issued 2 hours or more before departure from the
> origin, IIRC. Were it not for this, I'd use train+bike for
> long-distance travel a lot more often.

Speaking from experience, no. I've done it as late as 5 minutes before
arrival of the train. After all, it doesn't matter what the train staff
know, just as long as the booking system on the main computer knows.

And I've not got turned down in recent memory. Last time I did was on a
Scotrail long distance service with only 2 spaces on the train, about 3
years and a good 30 or 40 train journeys needing reservations ago. And in
that case, there wasn't a booking office to ask.

> There could really do with being a secondary reservation system,
> perhaps accessible by phone, web or WAP/text, allowing bike
> reservation right up to departure with an encrypted ID code being
> issued for the reservation.

Works fine at the ticket office (assuming there is one).

Interestingly, I get a different type of ticket nearly every time.

A

 

[Mark South]

"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In news:[email protected],
> Mark South <[email protected]> typed:
> > To be accurate, I did not start it. My line quoted below was
> > preceded by "ITYM".
> >
> >> "Travelling by train in the UK is almost always inconvenient, and
> >> with a bike it is a dead certainty that it will be inconvenient."
>
> Although you were saying what you thought I meant, which is demonstrably not
> true.

Well, the mode of expression implies that that is my take on what you could have
said. But alright, I'll happily concede that British trains in fact work
perfectly, run on time, and have a seamless customer experience.

Obviously I must be the only one who has the opposite experience.
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

In news:[email protected],
Mark South <[email protected]> typed:
> "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:[email protected]...
>> In news:[email protected],
>> Mark South <[email protected]> typed:
>>> To be accurate, I did not start it. My line quoted below was
>>> preceded by "ITYM".
>>>
>>>> "Travelling by train in the UK is almost always inconvenient, and
>>>> with a bike it is a dead certainty that it will be inconvenient."
>>
>> Although you were saying what you thought I meant, which is
>> demonstrably not true.
>
> Well, the mode of expression implies that that is my take on what you
> could have said. But alright, I'll happily concede that British
> trains in fact work perfectly, run on time, and have a seamless
> customer experience.

A denial of "almost always inconvenient" does not mean "working perfectly".

> Obviously I must be the only one who has the opposite experience.

Like Guy, I find that trains get me to the variety of places I need to get
me to simply and in comfort well over 90% of the time, with my bike when I
want to take it with me, and without knackering my concentration up and
leaving me full of nervous tension like driving does.

I don't live in the South East, though, so that's one reason I may have a
more satisfactory experience. Also, I'm not tightly bounded by time
constraints at the moment, so that's another reason I should find it
satisfactory.

A

 

[Jeremy Barker]

Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> in message <[email protected]>, Ambrose Nankivell
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
> > In news:[email protected],
> > Chris Brady <[email protected]> typed:
> >> Travelling by train in the UK is a
> >> nightmare anyway - period - but with a bicycle its a total nightmare.
> >
> > ITYM travelling by train in the UK can be inconvenient, and with a
> > bike it may often be inconvenient.
>
> Nightmare. Such A Bloody Experience Never Again, to quote the
> now-defunct Belgian airline's mission statement. The last three times I
> had a business meeting in London I booked full price first class
> returns on the West Coast Main Line. The sum of lateness of those three
> return journeys was well over fifteen of your English hours (i.e. over
> 50% of the total advertised journey time), and the total time spent
> standing (when I had a booked, paid for seat) was eight hours[1] or
> getting on for a third of the total advertised journey time.
>
> What did I receive in compensation for this appalling performance? Why,
> vouchers redeemable against rail travel! Thanks and all that, but no
> thanks. It's no way to run a railroad.
>
> [1] On one journey, they'd hugely oversold second class tickets. So they
> had seated second class passengers in first class, and the guard would
> not ask these people to move or stand - so I stood all the way from
> Carlisle to London. On another, the train broke down completely at
> Milton Keynes and we were transferred to an already over-crowded
> commuter train. On this occasion we were also five hours late - on a
> five hour journey. On a third journey, on the return leg they'd
> overbooked first class, so another gentleman had a reservation ticket
> for the same seat as mine. Fortunately he was only travelling to Crewe.

You have clearly been unlucky. I frequently travel by train and the
number of occasions when I have been severely delayed are very few
indeed.

And your comment on "oversold" tickets is arrant nonsense. Many
tickets are valid on any train and if everyone ends up on the same
train it is unfortunate but not something a legitimate complaint can
be made about.

Unlike airlines railways do not "overbook" reservations. The only
situation these days where people are allocated the same seat are
where handwritten reservation details have been incorrectly copied
from a computer screen.

jv

 

[Ross]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:05:21 +0200, Mark South wrote in
<[email protected]>, seen in uk.railway:

[Bikes on trains]

>Now, what's the average experience like?

Somewhere between the awful and the excellent, no doubt.

A proportion of rail passengers with cyclists will rarely have
problems, some will occasionally have minor problems, some will
generally have minor problems and occasionally major problems - and
some poor buggers will always seem to suffer major problems.

As happens to rail passengers without bicycles...


And, to look at it from a different angle, of those cyclists, some
will have problems because of woefully poor provision of cycle
facilities on certain trains, some will have problems because they
will insist on doing what they please with their bikes even when it
makes life difficult for themselves, and some will have problems
because of the behaviour of other passengers who insist on doing what
they please regardless, etc.

--
Ross

From & reply-to addresses will bounce. Reply to the group.

 

[Ross]

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 13:42:48 +0100, dwb wrote in
<[email protected]>, seen in uk.railway:

[...]
>I would like to think most cyclists wouldn't mind paying a
>remium to be able to take their bike with them (that premium
>o be decided)

When Regional Railways introduced a flat rate cycle charge [1] of GBP3
(single or day return), circa 1996, the number of bicycles on our
trains outside the PTE areas (where the charge didn't apply)
plummeted.

Cynic that I am, I suspect that even our proposal of using the
Accompanied Items charge (half adult fare to a maximum, which IIRC was
GBP4 single/GBP8 return at the time) to create a more reasonable fee
for shorter journeys would still have led to a significant drop in
usage.



[1] With the unpublicised but internally acknowledged intention of
dissuading cyclists from bringing their bikes given that new stock
couldn't easily handle more than a handful of bikes at best.
--
Ross

From & reply-to addresses will bounce. Reply to the group.

 

[JohnB]

Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>
> In news:[email protected],
> Neil Williams <[email protected]> typed:
> > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:40:24 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Why not just wheel the bike up to the ticket office (OK, that's a
> >> climb up steps, but...) and ask them for a bike reservation on the
> >> next Virgin train?
> >
> > These can only be issued 2 hours or more before departure from the
> > origin, IIRC. Were it not for this, I'd use train+bike for
> > long-distance travel a lot more often.
>
> Speaking from experience, no. I've done it as late as 5 minutes before
> arrival of the train. After all, it doesn't matter what the train staff
> know, just as long as the booking system on the main computer knows.

Same here. *When* my booking office is open sometimes the 'system' says
bookings have to be made 24 hours in advance, sometimes they can be made
with ten minutes to spare.
However I was friendly with the last ticket clerk who when given the
24hr option used to call another station that *could* seem to make a booking.
It seems so hit and miss at times.

> And I've not got turned down in recent memory. Last time I did was on a
> Scotrail long distance service with only 2 spaces on the train, about 3
> years and a good 30 or 40 train journeys needing reservations ago. And in
> that case, there wasn't a booking office to ask.

I get a 'fully reserved' about every six/seven journeys, then take the
Bike Friday or Brommie. Then I usually curse when I see there is space
anyway, but I often ride six miles to an alternative country station
where slam door trains still operate to avoid the system rather than use
the station a mile away with its cubby hole two-bike space trains.

> Interestingly, I get a different type of ticket nearly every time.

It does seem to be becoming more standardised in recent months, but I
don't see why *all* customer bookings/seat reservations/bike
requirements cannot be put on one ticket.
For a forthcoming return trip for two, involving just one train change I
have half a pack of playing cards - 28 separate card tickets.

John B

 

[Tony Raven]

JohnB wrote:
>>
>> Is this a good time to mention Bromptons?
>
> Even they are not immune to SWT jobsworths.
>
> I have been challenged at Waterloo by a guard who demanded to see my
> reservation when I was crunched into a vestbule with half a dozen others
> including one person with a large pushchair and several with rucsacs.
> When i said one wasn't needed she retorted that it should to be in the
> bike area as it was a "safety hazard".
> Of course nothing was said about all those standing, or the pushchair,
> or the rucksacs on the floor...
>

They are immune to jobsworths because you are right and they are wrong.
Doesn't stop them trying but if you are assertive and know your stuff they
back off.

Tony

 

[JohnB]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> It may not be the case that all the trains are always ****.....ScotRail run a halfway decent sleeper service.

Yep, they have Traquair House Ale

John B

 

[Tony Raven]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> It may not be the case that all the trains are always ****.....ScotRail
> run a halfway decent sleeper service.
>

What is it for the rest of the way?

Tony

 

[iarocu]

> I don't live in the South East, though, so that's one reason I may have a
> more satisfactory experience.

Transport like much else suffers from the excessive centralisation of
goverment, media and commerce in the southeast of the UK. Unlike for
example the USA where different cities and regions tend to deal with
different sectors. Federal goverment in Washington, motor industry in
Chicago, films in Hollywood, finance New York etc.
There may be a maximum optimal size for cities or urban centres
beyond which quality of life in some areas like transport suffers.
Iain

 

[David Martin]

On 23/6/04 8:48 am, in article [email protected], "JohnB"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>> It may not be the case that all the trains are always ****.....ScotRail run a
>> halfway decent sleeper service.
>
> Yep, they have Traquair House Ale

And the catering is quite reasonable in both quality and price.

I was favourably impressed last time I travelled on the sleeper. As well as
discovering traquair house ale (never found it anywhere else) it was all in
all a quite reasonable experience.

...d

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Jeremy
Barker ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> [1] On one journey, they'd hugely oversold second class tickets. So
>> [they
>> had seated second class passengers in first class, and the guard
>> would not ask these people to move or stand - so I stood all the way
>> from Carlisle to London. On another, the train broke down completely
>> at Milton Keynes and we were transferred to an already over-crowded
>> commuter train. On this occasion we were also five hours late - on a
>> five hour journey. On a third journey, on the return leg they'd
>> overbooked first class, so another gentleman had a reservation ticket
>> for the same seat as mine. Fortunately he was only travelling to
>> Crewe.
>
> You have clearly been unlucky. I frequently travel by train and the
> number of occasions when I have been severely delayed are very few
> indeed.
>
> And your comment on "oversold" tickets is arrant nonsense. Many
> tickets are valid on any train and if everyone ends up on the same
> train it is unfortunate but not something a legitimate complaint can
> be made about.

Semantics. When I've booked my seat days in advance - and paid a very
substantial premium to have a first class seat - then I expect to have
a seat. If I can't have the seat I've booked and the person responsible
for the train can't get me the seat I've booked then that's 'oversold'
as far as the customer is concerned. And when two different people hold
apparently valid reservations for the same seat in the same car that's
definitely oversold.

'But we're always done it that way' is no excuse. In Germany or Japan,
if you get a ticket you get a seat. If there are no more seats, you
can't buy a ticket.

The profit margin on carrying a full-fare first class passenger is way
higher than carrying someone buying a normal second class ticket, let
alone someone on a saver. If you succeed in alienating the people who
were prepared to pay premium prices for a premium service then the
profitability of the railway goes down.


--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'graveyards are full of indispensable people'

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Neil Williams
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:40:24 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Why not just wheel the bike up to the ticket office (OK, that's a
>>climb up steps, but...) and ask them for a bike reservation on the
>>next Virgin train?
>
> These can only be issued 2 hours or more before departure from the
> origin, IIRC. Were it not for this, I'd use train+bike for
> long-distance travel a lot more often.
>
> There could really do with being a secondary reservation system,
> perhaps accessible by phone, web or WAP/text, allowing bike
> reservation right up to departure with an encrypted ID code being
> issued for the reservation.

But surely part of the reason for being deliberately obstructive to
people who want to travel with bikes is so that in a few years they can
say 'but there's no demand for it' and withdraw the service altogether?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; single speed mountain bikes: for people who cycle on flat mountains.

 

[JohnB]

David Martin wrote:
>
> On 23/6/04 8:48 am, in article [email protected], "JohnB"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Simon Brooke wrote:
> >
> >> It may not be the case that all the trains are always ****.....ScotRail run a
> >> halfway decent sleeper service.
> >
> > Yep, they have Traquair House Ale
>
> And the catering is quite reasonable in both quality and price.
>
> I was favourably impressed last time I travelled on the sleeper. As well as
> discovering traquair house ale (never found it anywhere else) it was all in
> all a quite reasonable experience.

From my very limited experience I cannot agree about the catering.
There was in fact none, other than cold drinks.
Luckily that meant several bottles of THA were enjoyed, along with the
remnants of my sandwich box.

Otherwise the journey was good, except for waking up in dismal rubbish
strewn London, after leaving the wonderful wilds of Scotland.

John B