Off-Season Intensity



musher

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Feb 21, 2006
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tonyzackery said:
OK. Please explain your point in relation to my response with regard to establishing a base for a cyclist with a higher percentage of fast-twitch musle.

Thank you in advance for your response.
Off -Racing Season Intensity,
Training need to be structure for the duration of the competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their event .

Most studies show that it is more importante to maintain training intensity ( LT- VO2 max) than training volume.;)

Unless you are training for the " tour of california ", your Winter Base would be to focuse on "LT OR FTP " and some unstructures VO2max.

3 weeks before your firts race a VO2 flock will also help to increase your VO2max and your threshold :cool: .

Base New Definition:The Aerobic Engines www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

Ride hard,Musher
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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musher said:
Off -Racing Season Intensity,
Training need to be structure for the duration of the competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their event .

Most studies show that it is more importante to maintain training intensity ( LT- VO2 max) than training volume.;)

Unless you are training for the " tour of california ", your Winter Base would be to focuse on "LT OR FTP " and some unstructures VO2max.

3 weeks before your firts race a VO2 flock will also help to increase your VO2max and your threshold :cool: .

Base New Definition:The Aerobic Engines www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

Ride hard,Musher
I guess you're assuming I'm not training for longish race???;)

Anyway, thank you for your reply Ric Stern - oops, you're not Ric Stern. Regardless, I'll agree to disagree here. For my background - predominantly anaerobic and explosive sport events - LongSteadyMiles are what I need to build my base during the off-season. As the competitive outdoor racing season approaches, I'll add in the higher intensity training - not during the early winter months.

What's working for me may not work you, I'll leave it at that.
 

john979

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Jan 14, 2005
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musher said:
Off -Racing Season Intensity,
Training need to be structure for the duration of the competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their event .

Most studies show that it is more importante to maintain training intensity ( LT- VO2 max) than training volume.;)

Unless you are training for the " tour of california ", your Winter Base would be to focuse on "LT OR FTP " and some unstructures VO2max.

3 weeks before your firts race a VO2 flock will also help to increase your VO2max and your threshold :cool: .

Base New Definition:The Aerobic Engines www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

Ride hard,Musher
Musher;

Right on. Its also ok to throw in the occasional L6 workout. Oh, and none of this if its Tuesday it must be be A2 day for me. I have a handful of drills and I mixed them up based upon my mood, not a schedule. IMHO it is analyzing the workouts that is important, not planning them.
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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Urkiola2 said:
Ok. I see you don´t get the point....never mind..I am just saying that things are flodded of terms that not even scientist can get to explain so imagine recreational cyclists....Things are more simple than what they look and I believe that there are way too many Acronyms annd many are confusing.

BTW, it also makes me laugh your "reprograming of mitochondria in the muscles":rolleyes: that you quoted earlier.... I suggest a new Acronym according to your Sillicon valley concept. I propose the new acronym called MMR (Muscle Mitochondria Reprograming). It sounds "cool" doesn´t it?.

" We need to train FTP to increse MMR (some have to do more LSD) according to the PDC so that our AEPF and AWC increases and we decrease our MAOD and achieve a NP state as we increase our MMP and NMP. However, it is very important to check for PMC and specially for RBC, Hgb, Hct, CK, LDH and GOT so that we don´t increase too much our TSS, RPE, ATL, CTL and HIT. Although if the latter happens it is recommended to go to your LBS so you can check for some problems in your CL and CPV which could have caused a VI and therefore disturb your TSB which could seriously interfere with our MMR and therefore with your FTP" ...Boy that was cool!, wasn´t it....?.;)
Kinda anal retentive, aren't ya?:D Anyway, I'm through with this pissing match. You're right, you've won. Satisfied now?
 

Urkiola2

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acoggan said:
Then this might interest you (if you haven't already come across it):

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1440-1681.1997.tb02713.x
Andy, Thanks for the link. No I did not come across it. Thanks!. However, I am preparing a paper with a different approach to the Crossover concept. The crossover concept per se as we agree has some points that are unconsistent. However I am proposing a new approach to the crossover concept which at leat in terms of "metabolic efficiency diagnosis" I believe they can be promissing. I put the crossover concept to the test with a Pro Tour Team and the results were all over the place when comparing the physiological parameters as well as the performance parameters I could observe a few days later at training camp. However with the new approach I have, things make more sense. I am finishing writing it and will send it to you when I submit it so you can check it out. The problem with "crossover concept" is that the subjects used were college students and you know nothing about them so you miss comletely if they are good or bad metaboically speaking. With Top professionals I control their physiological parameters I can see who is better or worse and can have a better perspective with the "crossover" so that is why I changed and proposed a new approach.
 

Urkiola2

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tonyzackery said:
Kinda anal retentive, aren't ya?:D Anyway, I'm through with this pissing match. You're right, you've won. Satisfied now?
No, sorry did not mean to be anal. I don´t think you are getting my point. Please don´t be offended since it is not my intention. I just want to show people that things in exercise physiology and training methodology are way easier than what they look or what they are traying to sell us through internet coaching pages, packages, etc. The whole bussiness is in making things more complicated than what they really are so that we all think that it is the "silver bullet". They flood us with acronyms sometimes hard to understand. However things are much easier than what they look. Even in Formula 1 or Indy formula with so many mechanisms taking into action there are not so many acronyms...I have worked for more 11 years with Top pros and teams here in Europe and believe me, things are easier than what it looks...

I was just being ironic about acronyms but that is the way I wanted to express my frustration against all the marketing going on. Some acronyms are necessary and done with good intentions. however some others just keep confusing people.
 

Urkiola2

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Oct 4, 2007
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musher said:
Off -Racing Season Intensity,
Training need to be structure for the duration of the competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their event .

Most studies show that it is more importante to maintain training intensity ( LT- VO2 max) than training volume.;)

Unless you are training for the " tour of california ", your Winter Base would be to focuse on "LT OR FTP " and some unstructures VO2max.

3 weeks before your firts race a VO2 flock will also help to increase your VO2max and your threshold :cool: .

Base New Definition:The Aerobic Engines www.biketechreview.com/performance/mitochondria.htm

Ride hard,Musher
Have you ever thought about the assimilation of that training and possible overtraining from training so much and so long at FTP/LT or VO2max?....I have seen it in the "battle field" many many times and by May many people are quite overtrained....However since there are so many people in that condition many people will be racing under the same "underperformance" conditions.

We allways talk about how to scientifically train but barely talk about how to scientifically monitor overtrainig.
 

Urkiola2

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Oct 4, 2007
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acoggan said:
You seem to be missing a key point: what I have proposed is that you can use what I have termed functional threshold power to establish training levels that describe the training that the vast majority of cyclists perform/need to perform (non-endurance track cyclists being a notable exception). While this also makes functional threshold power useful when actually prescribing training, the latter can obviously be much more complicated (though it needn't be).
Andy, I get the key point and that is why exactely I don´t agree with that. Specially when prescribing training zones in watts and/or acording to FTP. I believe it could be a very usefull and simple concept but I believe it does not fulfill what we are looking for. I am preparing a paper about power: I have the preeliminary results and I believe I can confirm my point. I know that I am not disclosing the data yet and it seems too pretentious to talk without data (which I recognize it is not correct) but I am very sure I will prove my point. The data I have is both with recreational athletes as well as with international level pros.

As I mentioned earlier I barely get into forums, but I have to recignize they hook you up. They are very good to exchange ideas, especially with talented and knowledgable people like you. I better log out before I get hooked!...
 

frenchyge

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Apr 3, 2005
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Urkiola2 said:
I just want to show people that things in exercise physiology and training methodology are way easier than what they look or what they are traying to sell us through internet coaching pages, packages, etc. The whole bussiness is in making things more complicated than what they really are so that we all think that it is the "silver bullet". They flood us with acronyms sometimes hard to understand. However things are much easier than what they look. Even in Formula 1 or Indy formula with so many mechanisms taking into action there are not so many acronyms...I have worked for more 11 years with Top pros and teams here in Europe and believe me, things are easier than what it looks...

I was just being ironic about acronyms but that is the way I wanted to express my frustration against all the marketing going on. Some acronyms are necessary and done with good intentions. however some others just keep confusing people.
I think if you gave these forums more than just a passing glance, you'd realize that many of the acronyms are used as 'internet shorthand' rather than cool scientific terms -- kinda like LOL is internet shorthand for "laughing out loud."

The discussions and concepts discussed here are not complicated, and Andy's work has done a lot to greatly simplify them. The people that follow these forums know that one person's LT is another's MLSS and that either correlates with FTP, but using the abbreviations over a detailed definition saves time typing.
 

Alex Simmons

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Mar 12, 2006
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Urkiola2 said:
According to you, MAP Test is a maximum aerobic power test?. What do you exactely mean by that?
While the acronym may not necessarily accurately describe Maximal Aerobic Power (whatever anyone's interpretation of that is), it is a shorthand way of descibing the mean maximal 1-minute power from an incremental power ramp test to exhaustion using a protocol as defined by British Cycling and is used as a method to define power training levels and an objective means to establish a rider's progress (or not as they case may be). The definition and accompanying notes can be found here:
http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-news-Test_yourself.htm

Obviously the result is very protocol dependant. Since most that hang around here or on other power training forums understand that this is the protocol referred to when we use the term MAP, then it really doesn't matter what we call it. We can call it the BCF or the MinRamp or the Alex test for all I care :).

What matters is that as long as the test protocol is adhered to, then the resulting MAP value can be used to defined training levels (ranges) that when also used with appropriate training protocols predominantly* target desired physiological adaptations (mostly aerobic adaptations such as endurance, increased muscle capilliarisation, increased muscle glycogen storage, LT and VO2Max, blood plasma volume, cardiac output) up to improving anaerobic work capacity.

* Of course training adaptations are not discrete to level - there is of course a continuum.

These aerobic and anaerobic abilities cover a large spectrum of racing demands and for the most part form the core of cyclists' training priorities.

Naturally in many events (e.g. crits, track racing, team pursuits, mtb) neuromuscular demands are higher than for say pursuiting or time trialling. No aerobic anchor point (such as MAP or FTP) can define training of these neuromuscular requirements (and nor do they purport to).

In terms of simplicity - then an easily repeatable test for anyone with a power meter with a well understood protocol which guides training levels and corresponding adaptations (as well as measuring training loads/stresses) is, to me at least, a very simple outcome from all the "mumbo jumbo acronyms" that may be used.

Urkiola2 said:
I am not saying all activities of cycling are a complete different sport, I am just saying that without changing dramatically, the training for a persuit rider or cyclocross or TdF contestant should be more specific to his/her discipline. The same happenes in track and field. There are many subunites within the same sport like 100m, 200m, 1500m, 3000m, 20k, marathon...etc, which metabolically speaking could vary but they all belong to the same sport, track and field. The training of a 1500m is not the same as the traiining for a marathon runner...
I would very much doubt that anyone here with any half decent knowledge of training is suggesting that a track pursuiter and a cyclocross rider would train the same way. Of course they have some common physiological demands but specificity of training to goal/target is a pretty well established and understood requirement.

That has been one of the great benefits of power meters in training - race demands and a rider's physiological characteristics and deficiencies can be better understood and training can be constructed accordingly.
 

mikeyp123

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Mar 29, 2007
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Did anyone answer the original question? Let me hi-jack the thread and rephrase the question:

Is it more productive, in the off-season, to train using LSD, or something more along the lines of SST (sweet spot training)? With the end goal of being faster in your run of the mill road race, crit, and TT.

Lets assume one won't being doing 3-4 hour stage races.

thanks!
 

john979

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Jan 14, 2005
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mikeyp123 said:
Did anyone answer the original question? Let me hi-jack the thread and rephrase the question:

Is it more productive, in the off-season, to train using LSD, or something more along the lines of SST (sweet spot training)? With the end goal of being faster in your run of the mill road race, crit, and TT.

Lets assume one won't being doing 3-4 hour stage races.

thanks!
SST is much more productive, when done properly.
 

Andy SG

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Aug 15, 2007
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mikeyp123 said:
Did anyone answer the original question? Let me hi-jack the thread and rephrase the question:

Is it more productive, in the off-season, to train using LSD, or something more along the lines of SST (sweet spot training)? With the end goal of being faster in your run of the mill road race, crit, and TT.

Lets assume one won't being doing 3-4 hour stage races.

thanks!
I think that the previous discussion in this thread didn't give a good answer, and in the rather nerdy answers a key point was missing.

My view is this: Most efficient training is to improve on your limiting factor. For me it is the ability to go with the rest of the pack until the end of the race. I then ask myself if this is an endurance issue, but using a training program inspired by Friel I trained a lot of LSD, and setting my own pace I could almost go on for ever, so I came to the conclusion that my problem was that I was worn out to early in the race. Checking with training partners, I realized that I was working harder, in % of my maximum output capability, than others during the race, and hence I was worn out earlier ...

With this as a background I find the concept of FTP beeing helpfull, in targeting my training, and measure its effect.

Since most riders will benifit from having an easier ride towards the end of the race, the FTP concept is useful as a point of reference since you can relate it to training methods.

I improve my FTP a lot via VO2max training - It's very efficient. Still since I target a 300km road race and XC marathon it wont take me the whole way. I will limit my LSD sessions a lot this year, and see where I end up, however.
 

frenchyge

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mikeyp123 said:
Did anyone answer the original question? Let me hi-jack the thread and rephrase the question:

Is it more productive, in the off-season, to train using LSD, or something more along the lines of SST (sweet spot training)? With the end goal of being faster in your run of the mill road race, crit, and TT.
It was answered in the first couple posts, as usual -- there is no "must train this way to have a successful racing season."

As for your re-phrase, the devil is in the details -- how much training time one has to spend, how often they train, their susceptibility to burnout, at what level they intend to race, length of the events, number and timing of key events, etc. If it were possible to unequivocally say that three-letter-acronym XYZ is better than ZYX then we wouldn't continue to see this discussion.

If you're looking for help developing your own training plan based on one or more conceptual approaches, then I'd suggest looking into the prescribed/example plans that go with each approach and determining which seems most likely to fit the time that you have available to (and desire to) train.
 

musher

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Feb 21, 2006
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tonyzackery said:
I guess you're assuming I'm not training for longish race???;)

Anyway, thank you for your reply Ric Stern - oops, you're not Ric Stern. Regardless, I'll agree to disagree here. For my background - predominantly anaerobic and explosive sport events - LongSteadyMiles are what I need to build my base during the off-season. As the competitive outdoor racing season approaches, I'll add in the higher intensity training - not during the early winter months.

What's working for me may not work you, I'll leave it at that.
You are right, what work for me may not for you :D .
I am not assuming anything ...( Training need to be Structure for the duration of the Competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their Event ) :confused: .
You need to read before anwsering .

I train for stage racing ,i do my (LSD )at L3 & low L4 from August to Oct. ,after i have to do my w/o on the trainer ( snowing ) then i focuse on Specifics of my event ,cirt ,TT ,road r,...
Ride hard , Musher
 

musher

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Feb 21, 2006
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Urkiola2 said:
Have you ever thought about the assimilation of that training and possible overtraining from training so much and so long at FTP/LT or VO2max?....I have seen it in the "battle field" many many times and by May many people are quite overtrained....However since there are so many people in that condition many people will be racing under the same "underperformance" conditions.

We allways talk about how to scientifically train but barely talk about how to scientifically monitor overtrainig.
Are you talking from many years of experience :) .
I started racing in 1970 :eek: .

I had a vey very good racing season master cat 3 , all in 1st , 2nd ,3rd places and a 52k state TT CHAMP. 1ST PLACE:D ...

How was yours ?, All the best,
Ride hard, Musher
 

jsirabella

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Truth be told I really think that so many factors go into it that it is very hard to say. Me for instance who was more of a geek in school and did not do any sports at all but was a bike messenger when in college and than never really did anything until about 3 years ago because I broke my ankle compared to the ex-runner, ex-body builder, ex-(you name it) or euro-pro will need different type of training and will progress differently due to the amount of time they can put in combined with their age and genetics.

Yes it does come down toi what works for you but I can say with a great amount of confidence that nothing has worked better for me than the power meter and just following the book. When compared to a trainer I worked with who was giving me schedules with 3 or more hours a day of riding it just made no sense for my time constraints and age and background. I can say without doubt that the program in the book can work for anyone...

It is very straight foward as was when I got into body building about 3 or 4 years ago and followed the 5 pound rule and worked on the basic mass building exercises combined with clean eating and a good diet.

This is why honestly, IMHO, I find you really need to know alot more about a person's background (ex-runner, track) and time constraints (how many hours per week) and vital statistics (age, weight, health conditions?) and ofcourse goals (crits, road race, just fitness?) before making a plan. Without this info, youc an not develop a proper schedule...I told my coach/trainer this and he finally this year sent out a question sheet asking this exact info...lol.

-Js




mikeyp123 said:
Did anyone answer the original question? Let me hi-jack the thread and rephrase the question:

Is it more productive, in the off-season, to train using LSD, or something more along the lines of SST (sweet spot training)? With the end goal of being faster in your run of the mill road race, crit, and TT.

Lets assume one won't being doing 3-4 hour stage races.

thanks!
 

tonyzackery

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Dec 23, 2006
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musher said:
You are right, what work for me may not for you :D .
I am not assuming anything ...( Training need to be Structure for the duration of the Competition at exercice Intensity Specific of their Event ) :confused: .
You need to read before anwsering .

I train for stage racing ,i do my (LSD )at L3 & low L4 from August to Oct. ,after i have to do my w/o on the trainer ( snowing ) then i focuse on Specifics of my event ,cirt ,TT ,road r,...
Ride hard , Musher
Thanks, Ric Stern, oops again - you're NOT Ric Stern. Perhaps YOU need to read before answering...
 

musher

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tonyzackery said:
Thanks, Ric Stern, oops again - you're NOT Ric Stern. Perhaps YOU need to read before answering...
You must be a Pro.:D :D :D , you doing all the talking and no learning;) .Ric ????:confused: you are so confuse you dont know how you anwsering,:D :D ,....bla bla bla........
 

mikeyp123

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Mar 29, 2007
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Interesting stuff.. thanks for the feedback.

I omitted some details in my previous post, I have done LSD training back in my triathlon days, 5+ years ago, it was really in vogue back then. Granted I sometimes competed at much longer durations, and needed to acclimate to such efforts, LSD probably made sense in that scenario.. 1/2 ironman was my longest. After spending 3 years as a competative age-group triathelete, I ditched it all for running. I was never a fantastic runner, but was capable of a 20 min 5k. But cycling always came naturally to me. I'm light, currently 66kg (146 lbs at 5'11"), and have very strong legs for my build, I think it may have something to do with my lifting obsesssion prior to my triathlon phase.. sets at 225+lbs easy (back then I was 81kg (180lbs), but have't lifted seriously in a long time).

Last year I focused on cycling. This will be my first season racing. Last season I did lots of local group rides, it didn't take long to adjust to the fast roadie rides. So now I'm in that off-season build phase, first race is in late January (I'm in the SoCal area). I've got the power-meter on its way, I've read Andy and Hunter's book, I'm starting to follow their SST approach.. it just makes more sense for me. I don't need to accilimate to seriously long events, I'm already in good shape, I don't need to "adjust" to a road bike, which leads me to conclude that LSD won't be beneficial. Although I do see some local cat 3 riders going LSD at this time of year. That's were the confusion lies. Are their coaches not current to power-training? Maybe they have different needs? But persnonally, I would hate to exchange current aerobic fitness for saddle time. My other worry is that I'm starting too intense too early, but I will have more data when I start using the PT and CyclingPeaks.

mike