Off-Season Intensity



jsirabella

New Member
Jan 1, 2005
1,715
4
0
56
I am in now way your best source in ths forum as besides the book, Dave has given me alot of info and has helped me make some great progress. Also Ric is another great source here.

But IMHO, you already answered your own question, it would seem to me with yor sports background, you did not need to work on building an aerobic engine with LSD training. All you need to do is get your sustainable watts up and that is SST training. Dave has told me over and over again how L3/SST/L4 is the key especially if time is a limiting factor.

Now if you are like my coach (now spinning on his fourth hour on the company CT trainer like 140 watts or so in the office above me ) go for LSD and make it part of your training. But otherwise you have seemed to nail it down to me. Also in the book they talk alot about the ftp test and the 20 minute effort but really get yourself on a trainer and see what wattage you can hold for one hour. That is my only test combined with what Dave showed me, the Monod test. I overestimated a little bit in the beginning based upon the ftp test but keep in mind watts is just a measuring stick and as long as you get better with each new measure uisng the same stick means you are getting better.

As for other cat 3 riders and there reasons, it can be a million from scientific to just that is what I learned and what everyone else is doing...personally I would go with the power training, simple and easy to follow and measure yourself.

-Js




mikeyp123 said:
Interesting stuff.. thanks for the feedback.

I omitted some details in my previous post, I have done LSD training back in my triathlon days, 5+ years ago, it was really in vogue back then. Granted I sometimes competed at much longer durations, and needed to acclimate to such efforts, LSD probably made sense in that scenario.. 1/2 ironman was my longest. After spending 3 years as a competative age-group triathelete, I ditched it all for running. I was never a fantastic runner, but was capable of a 20 min 5k. But cycling always came naturally to me. I'm light, currently 66kg (146 lbs at 5'11"), and have very strong legs for my build, I think it may have something to do with my lifting obsesssion prior to my triathlon phase.. sets at 225+lbs easy (back then I was 81kg (180lbs), but have't lifted seriously in a long time).

Last year I focused on cycling. This will be my first season racing. Last season I did lots of local group rides, it didn't take long to adjust to the fast roadie rides. So now I'm in that off-season build phase, first race is in late January (I'm in the SoCal area). I've got the power-meter on its way, I've read Andy and Hunter's book, I'm starting to follow their SST approach.. it just makes more sense for me. I don't need to accilimate to seriously long events, I'm already in good shape, I don't need to "adjust" to a road bike, which leads me to conclude that LSD won't be beneficial. Although I do see some local cat 3 riders going LSD at this time of year. That's were the confusion lies. Are their coaches not current to power-training? Maybe they have different needs? But persnonally, I would hate to exchange current aerobic fitness for saddle time. My other worry is that I'm starting too intense too early, but I will have more data when I start using the PT and CyclingPeaks.

mike
 

Urkiola2

New Member
Oct 4, 2007
89
0
0
musher said:
Are you talking from many years of experience :) .
I started racing in 1970 :eek: .

I had a vey very good racing season master cat 3 , all in 1st , 2nd ,3rd places and a 52k state TT CHAMP. 1ST PLACE:D ...

How was yours ?, All the best,
Ride hard, Musher
Musher,

I am astonished and overwelmed by your cycling curriculum:eek: !. Really rare to find out there:)
I have been involved in cycling since the early 80´s.

About your "mastering" at hard training and physiological responses to exercise and competition I have a few questions for you: Have you ever seen and done physiological tests to study physiological parameters (VO2max, Lactate, Watts. W/Kg...) in a lab and on the field of world class cyclists?. Are you a Doctor?. Have you ever worked with Professional Cat 1 teams (Now called Pro Tour) travelling with them and working with them shoulder to shoulder 120 days/year and seing all kinds of physiological states?. HAve you ever worked wit Tour de France, Giro, Vuelta, Classics...etc winners?. Have you ever analyzed blood parameters both hematological and biochemical as well as oxidative stress markers and free radicals of cyclists to see/diagnose an overtraining state?. Well...I have for 11 years.
Not traying to offend but your last comment was not the most approapiate.

YOu asserted something about trainig hard as the way to go and I just asked if you ever thought about the possibility of overtraining...

Musher, Ride hard but also ride smart...Don´t get offended but the last part seems to be out of your training program....Maybe you are good and have an amazing cycling curriculum as you have....but maybe you could be just much better...All best.
 

acoggan

Member
Jul 4, 2003
3,047
9
0
Urkiola2 said:
Have you ever seen and done physiological tests to study physiological parameters (VO2max, Lactate, Watts. W/Kg...) in a lab and on the field of world class cyclists?. Are you a Doctor?. Have you ever worked with Professional Cat 1 teams (Now called Pro Tour) travelling with them and working with them shoulder to shoulder 120 days/year and seing all kinds of physiological states?. HAve you ever worked wit Tour de France, Giro, Vuelta, Classics...etc winners?. Have you ever analyzed blood parameters both hematological and biochemical as well as oxidative stress markers and free radicals of cyclists to see/diagnose an overtraining state?. Well...I have for 11 years.

Have we met (in the virtual sense) before?
 

tonyzackery

Well-Known Member
Dec 23, 2006
3,517
46
0
55
musher said:
You must be a Pro.:D :D :D , you doing all the talking and no learning;) .Ric ????:confused: you are so confuse you dont know how you anwsering,:D :D ,....bla bla bla........
Good one. You got me that time. In your spare time it would behoove you to open a 3rd grade English textbook.

You really do encounter all kinds on Cyclingforums - even in the same thread...from the anal retentive to the immature...oh well...you must take the good with the bad in any aspect of life...
 

musher

New Member
Feb 21, 2006
124
1
0
67
tonyzackery said:
Good one. You got me that time. In your spare time it would behoove you to open a 3rd grade English textbook.

You really do encounter all kinds on Cyclingforums - even in the same thread...from the anal retentive to the immature...oh well...you must take the good with the bad in any aspect of life...
Bla ..blaaaa, blaaaa...:D
 

musher

New Member
Feb 21, 2006
124
1
0
67
Urkiola2 said:
Musher,

I am astonished and overwelmed by your cycling curriculum:eek: !. Really rare to find out there:)
I have been involved in cycling since the early 80´s.

About your "mastering" at hard training and physiological responses to exercise and competition I have a few questions for you: Have you ever seen and done physiological tests to study physiological parameters (VO2max, Lactate, Watts. W/Kg...) in a lab and on the field of world class cyclists?. Are you a Doctor?. Have you ever worked with Professional Cat 1 teams (Now called Pro Tour) travelling with them and working with them shoulder to shoulder 120 days/year and seing all kinds of physiological states?. HAve you ever worked wit Tour de France, Giro, Vuelta, Classics...etc winners?. Have you ever analyzed blood parameters both hematological and biochemical as well as oxidative stress markers and free radicals of cyclists to see/diagnose an overtraining state?. Well...I have for 11 years.
Not traying to offend but your last comment was not the most approapiate.

YOu asserted something about trainig hard as the way to go and I just asked if you ever thought about the possibility of overtraining...

Musher, Ride hard but also ride smart...Don´t get offended but the last part seems to be out of your training program....Maybe you are good and have an amazing cycling curriculum as you have....but maybe you could be just much better...All best.
Very nice ,no and no to your questions,about training hard ,it just the way i am and it work well for me but like you said ,over-training is very close ,you have to know when to back-off and the PM help a lot.Thank's for your consern but i will stay with my training plan.

Its great to see personnes like you with so much experience and dedication to the sports of cycling ,you are a great help for this forum:D

I did train & race in the 70 in East of France (alsace-lorraine) &(,luxenbourg ,belgium). Take care . Ride hard:eek: ,Musher
 

trymorecowbell

New Member
Oct 22, 2006
6
0
0
musher said:
Are you talking from many years of experience :) .
I started racing in 1970 :eek: .

I had a vey very good racing season master cat 3 , all in 1st , 2nd ,3rd places and a 52k state TT CHAMP. 1ST PLACE:D ...

How was yours ?, All the best,
Ride hard, Musher
FYI, Only results from P12 races, Natz or Worlds are worthy of that kinda of boasting - especially for a masters rider.
 

Urkiola2

New Member
Oct 4, 2007
89
0
0
acoggan said:
Have we met (in the virtual sense) before?
Yes we have met before a few times and even had exchanged some e-mails.. I have not have the HONOR to meet you in person. I am extremely bad at corresponding since unfortunately I am on the road most of the year and I am only a bit more "relaxed" and with more time during this short period of the year.

I have read most of your papers and I have no doubt that when it comes to exercise metabolism you are one of the top guys in the world. Your papers have tought me a lot, that is for sure. Thanks!. I have a very good experience working "in the battle field" with world class cycists and teams and used new approaches, protocols and training techniques and have tons of data from them to publish at least 12 descriptive papers, but unfortunately I never have the time to do it!...I may take a much easier seson next year and looking forward to start writing. I lost your e-mail. If want to exchange some info send me PM with your email and I will give you mine. Thanks.

Cheers.
 

musher

New Member
Feb 21, 2006
124
1
0
67
mikeyp123 said:
Interesting stuff.. thanks for the feedback.

I omitted some details in my previous post, I have done LSD training back in my triathlon days, 5+ years ago, it was really in vogue back then. Granted I sometimes competed at much longer durations, and needed to acclimate to such efforts, LSD probably made sense in that scenario.. 1/2 ironman was my longest. After spending 3 years as a competative age-group triathelete, I ditched it all for running. I was never a fantastic runner, but was capable of a 20 min 5k. But cycling always came naturally to me. I'm light, currently 66kg (146 lbs at 5'11"), and have very strong legs for my build, I think it may have something to do with my lifting obsesssion prior to my triathlon phase.. sets at 225+lbs easy (back then I was 81kg (180lbs), but have't lifted seriously in a long time).

Last year I focused on cycling. This will be my first season racing. Last season I did lots of local group rides, it didn't take long to adjust to the fast roadie rides. So now I'm in that off-season build phase, first race is in late January (I'm in the SoCal area). I've got the power-meter on its way, I've read Andy and Hunter's book, I'm starting to follow their SST approach.. it just makes more sense for me. I don't need to accilimate to seriously long events, I'm already in good shape, I don't need to "adjust" to a road bike, which leads me to conclude that LSD won't be beneficial. Although I do see some local cat 3 riders going LSD at this time of year. That's were the confusion lies. Are their coaches not current to power-training? Maybe they have different needs? But persnonally, I would hate to exchange current aerobic fitness for saddle time. My other worry is that I'm starting too intense too early, but I will have more data when I start using the PT and CyclingPeaks.

mike
Hi mike

Le "LSD" est MORT ,VIVE le "LTD" (long tempo distance).
Excuse my english as i use mostly French at home:) .
Rider with a high FTP didn't get there by accident .It take a lot of dertermination and dedication year around to improuve.

"Improuving your subtainable Power at LT are a matter of accumulating time (volume) at a given Intensity ".

The premier benefit of increased training volume ( at LT ) is an increased capacity for Mitochondria Respiration,which,is imperative to improuvements in Lactate Threshold ,it is importante to get a good volume betwen L3 & sweetsopt and pure Threshold work each week ( increase weekly volume at LT by 10% to 20%). ( bampa1999).

check-out on the forum pots by: Timan & rmur17:LT weeks and volume at LT question.

A few very good links worth reading:
mitochondria:the aerobic eng. www.biketechrewiew.com/performance/mitochondria.htm
www.groups.google.com/group/wattage/topics?hl=en

#2 &#3 www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5072

Off-Season training:the need for Intensity www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=4456&status=true

Sweet Spot training:
www.fastcatcoaching.com/training-tips/sweetspot-pardeux.html
power:
www.fastcatcoaching.com/training-power/training-tips/training-tips.html

Power & Pace for thriathetes:
www.racefaster.blogspot.com

The Lactate Threshold:
www.home.hia.no/-stephens/lacthres.htm

W/O that i am using :blocks
day1: 2 to 4 x15'=R 5' at 88% of FTP
day2:1 to 2 x30' 90% to 95%
day3:eek:ff
day4:1 x30' to 45' at 95%
day5: L3 x 60' to 90' at 70% to 75%
day6: off
day7: off
day8:2 x20' to 25' at 100%
day9:1x30' to 45' at 90%
day10: sweet spot 45' to 90' at 85% +.
(than i take 2 days off & start a new cycle) : note than it's very inportante to well rested before stating a new cycle or week.
Ride hard,:) Musher
 

mikeyp123

New Member
Mar 29, 2007
45
0
0
Thanks for all those links, very helpful and insightful. Turns out we have very similar workouts. Here's mine:

day 1: 5 min 100%, 2 x 20 L4
day 2: 5 min 100%, 45-50 min L3-L4 on trainer
day 3: 50-60 min L3 with big gear intervals every 5 min (53x13 gearing)
day 4: off
day 5: group ride L2-L5 efforts, ~3 hours
day 6: 2-3 x 20 L3-L4 steady climbing intervals
day 7: off
day 8: day 1 workout
day 9: day 2 workout or some variation
day 10: off
day 11: off
-- repeat --

The 3 day block is tough to push through, but seems to be working for me. I am flexible with workouts outside the 3 day block, given the group ride always falls on a Saturday.

mike
 

Ade Merckx

New Member
Jan 26, 2007
234
0
0
musher said:
W/O that i am using :blocks
day1: 2 to 4 x15'=R 5' at 88% of FTP
day2:1 to 2 x30' 90% to 95%
day3:eek:ff
day4:1 x30' to 45' at 95%
day5: L3 x 60' to 90' at 70% to 75%
day6: off
day7: off
day8:2 x20' to 25' at 100%
day9:1x30' to 45' at 90%
day10: sweet spot 45' to 90' at 85% +.
(than i take 2 days off & start a new cycle) : note than it's very inportante to well rested before stating a new cycle or week.
Ride hard,:) Musher
Hi Musher are you for real?, is that all you do?. Your weekly hours look quite low.
 

john979

New Member
Jan 14, 2005
244
0
0
Ade Merckx said:
Hi Musher are you for real?, is that all you do?. Your weekly hours look quite low.
They would not be low if he mushed a little harder... 90% for an hour, 85% for two hours...
 

musher

New Member
Feb 21, 2006
124
1
0
67
Ade Merckx said:
Hi Musher are you for real?, is that all you do?. Your weekly hours look quite low.
Hi, at 53 y. old it take a long time to recover, so i have to balance volume and intensity .Iam only on the trainer until mid-feb. (snow).But 12h. avg. for a cycle,my goal is to increase my FTP volume to 6 hours and 5 to 10 watts by this end of feb.,also day 10 to 90' at 95%to 100% of FTP.
I can't give you to many specific of my training because my competition is a member of this forum :D .I also have my training and racing team partner and a friend from my club on the forum.Ride hard, Musher
 

musher

New Member
Feb 21, 2006
124
1
0
67
john979 said:
They would not be low if he mushed a little harder... 90% for an hour, 85% for two hours...
It won't be fan when i'll get to 90' at 95%to 100 %...,but it will be rewarding...i hope.Ride hard, Musher