GaryG wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <
[email protected]> wrote in message
::
news:[email protected]...
::: GaryG wrote:
::::: "Roger Zoul" <
[email protected]> wrote in message
:::::
news:[email protected]...
:::::: GaryG wrote:
:::::::: "Roger Zoul" <
[email protected]> wrote in
:::::::: message
news:[email protected]...
::::::::: Badger_South wrote:
::::::::::: On Fri, 21 May 2004 07:47:23 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
::::::::::: <
[email protected]> wrote:
:::::::::::
:::::::::::: You can do that if you want...however, why
:::::::::::: don't you just bump calories down to about 2200
:::::::::::: for a couple of weeks. Keep everything else the
:::::::::::: same. You'll lose weight. I don't see why it is
:::::::::::: so hard for everyone to think that you're
:::::::::::: simply eating too much to lose weight.
:::::::::::
::::::::::: Roger is kidding you here, b/c he knows that if
::::::::::: you do this and don't sugar/carb restrict, that
::::::::::: the Ghrelin will increase to the point where you
::::::::::: have almost -uncontrollable- appetite!
:::::::::
::::::::: 2200 is only about 500 less than what he's eating
::::::::: now. There is a good chance he can do it -- it he
::::::::: wants too. Frankly, with his performance on the
::::::::: bike, I'm not sure why he wants to, other than to
::::::::: give into societal norms. And that his choice to
::::::::: make..
::::::::
::::::::
:::::::: Given that his current BMI is 34.2, and he is
:::::::: carrying a lot of excess weight around his waist,
:::::::: he might want to lose that weight for a much more
:::::::: important reason than "societal norms".
::::::
:::::: We need bodyfat % not BMI - it is fairly useless. His
:::::: waist to hip ratio might be fine, too.
:::::
::::: The overwhelming majority of folks with a BMI of 34.2
::::: are fat. The OP himself states:
:::::
::::: "I carry almost all the weight around my waist.
::::: Personally, I think I'm rather oddly shaped. Chest and
::::: butt look normal... just a big fat gut in front."
:::::
::::: This is a description of too much fat, carried around
::::: the middle, a combination that has been linked to an
::::: increased risk of disease in many studies.
:::
::: Hey, I never said he wasn't fat, in fact, I've been
::: talking to him about losing weight. However, his date
::: would seem to indicate that at 275 lbs he is unusually
::: fit. All these numbers you quote don't say **** about
::: fitness, assuming that fatness is the only issue. I
::: don't believe that. Being sedentary is also a big issue
::: and could be much more important than how much fat one
::: carries.
:::
::: Blind faith in report research data is troublesome. In
::: case you haven't noticed, these people change directions
::: very often-- based on new research findings. IMO, it is
::: better to pay attention to what a person does and what
::: they can do, then to simply look at numbers.
:::
:::
:::::
::::: BMI is not "useless". It's also not "perfect". It has
::::: the advantage of being easy to calculate,
:::
::: How were the charts developed? Based on what data and
::: what group of people?
:::
::: and for most people it
::::: correlates well with body fat (i.e., higher BMI =
::::: higher body fat percentage).
:::
::: Sure, but two people with the same BMI can be very, very
::: different in terms of fitness and health, even beyond
::: fat %.
:::
::: For a small percentage of the population (e.g., body
::::: builders), the correlation may not hold. But, I see a
::::: lot more fat folks than body builders when I'm out and
::::: about.
:::::
:::
::: A correlation is not everything. I too see a lot of fat
::: people and very few bodybuilders. But that still
::: doesn't mean you should lump the OP in with other
::: people who have a BMI of 34 given, without
::: consideration of his info.
:::
::::::
::::::
:::::: To be
:::::::: blunt, he might want to lose weight to ensure he
:::::::: doesn't die any time soon. His weight, and his
:::::::: waist size, are both very strong risk factors for
:::::::: mortality from heart disease, diabetes, cancer,
:::::::: etc.
::::::::
:::::::: Assuming he has a waist size greater than 40", the
:::::::: Centers for Disease Control would put him at "Very
:::::::: High Risk" of disease due to his weight and waist
:::::::: size. If his waist size (measured at the navel) is
:::::::: 40" or less, his risk would be "High Risk".
::::::
:::::: One can argue with such simplistic factors for
:::::: prediction. Do they factor in activity level, muscle
:::::: mass, frame size, and age?
:::::
::::: With a waist size > 40", I don't think muscle mass and
::::: frame size are significant moderators of disease risk.
::::: It's the fat that's the problem.
:::
::: Prove it. I say it is the sedentary lifestyle that's the
::: problem, moreso than just being fat. I use myself as
::: evidence for that position. There are enough others who
::: report similar findings to lead me to believe, in spite
::: of what research says and what charts indicate, that
::: there is more to the story than the mere numbers cited
::: above.
:::
:::::
::::: More research does need to be done on people with high
::::: BMI's who are physically active - it would be very
::::: interesting to see to what extent physical activity
::::: reduces disease risk (some preliminary research
::::: indicates that it can reduce, but not eliminate,
::::: disease risk). Unfortunately, the vast majority of
::::: folks with high BMI's are *not* physcially fit.
:::
::: Agreed, however nothing is going to eliminate disease
::: risk, it can only be lessened. How do you define
::: "physically fit?"
:::
::: The OP can do 70-mile rides at 16 mph while weighing 275
::: on hilly terrain. Are football players who run up and
::: down the field not fit? ARe 300 lbs bodybuilders not
::: physically fit?
:::
::: I do agree with you that there are many high BMI's
::: people who are definitely NOT physically fit by any
::: standards. I'm just saying that there are very real
::: exceptions and applying blanket notions and numbers is
::: not useful in light of MORE information.
:::
:::
::
:: The BMI issue has been researched reasonably well. In
:: general, higher BMI's are associated with higher rates of
:: mortality across broad populations.
I don't disagree with that.
::
:: As for "Are football players who run up and down the
:: field not fit?" Yes, they are. But, does that mean they
:: have a lower risk of disease/mortality? I kind of doubt
:: that it does - I've read that pro football players tend
:: to die quite a bit earlier than others.
I think it does. I think the reasons pro football players
die early is many reasons. 1) they quit being active but
keep other bad habits (probably the most telling reason), 2)
they get beat down during their careers, just for two.
::
:: Clearly, there are exceptions, and more research needs to
:: be done, but across large populations, in many studies,
:: high BMI has been shown to be a risk factor. Do you have
:: any cites that disprove the link between BMI/fatness and
:: mortality in "physically fit" people with high BMI's? I
:: would be most interested in any published studies you
:: could cite.
I'm currently reading (okay, about to read - i just got this
today) the book "The Obesity Myth: Why America's Obsession
with Weight is Hazardous to your Health" by Pal Campos. I'll
let you know what I find out here.
::
:: Here's an abstract from the New England Journal of
:: Medicine (Volume
:: 341:1097-1105 October 7, 1999 Number 15) that did a study
:: of 1 million adults, comparing BMI to mortality and
:: filtering for smoking status, age, and race. They
:: found that the lowest risk of mortality was
:: associated with BMI's of 23.5 to 24.9 in men and 22.0
:: to 23.4 in women.
See -- this is one point that the author of that book makes.
Look at the BMI of the lowest risk -- those are pretty high
numbers for men -- heck, that's almost fat! So it certainly
doesn't follow that lower BMI = longer life.
::
::
:: Body-Mass Index and Mortality in a Prospective Cohort of
:: U.S. Adults
::
:: Eugenia E. Calle, Ph.D., Michael J. Thun, M.D., Jennifer
:: M. Petrelli,
:: M.P.H., Carmen Rodriguez, M.D., M.P.H., and Clark W.
:: Heath, M.D.
::
:: ABSTRACT
::
:: Background Body-mass index (the weight in kilograms
:: divided by the square of the height in meters) is known
:: to be associated with
:: smoking status, and history of disease on the relation
:: between body-mass index and mortality.
::
:: Methods In a prospective study of more than 1 million
:: adults in the United States (457,785 men and 588,369
:: women), 201,622 deaths occurred during 14 years of follow-
:: up. We examined the relation between body-mass index and
:: the risk of death from all causes in four subgroups
:: categorized according to smoking status and history of
:: disease. In healthy people who had never smoked, we
:: further examined whether the relation varied according
:: to race, cause of death, or age. The relative risk was
:: used to assess the relation between mortality and body-
:: mass index.
::
:: Results The association between body-mass index and the
:: risk of death was substantially modified by smoking
:: status and the presence of disease. In healthy people who
:: had never smoked, the nadir of the curve for body-mass
:: index and mortality was found at a body-mass index of
:: 23.5 to 24.9 in men and 22.0 to 23.4 in women. Among
:: subjects with the highest body-mass indexes, white men
:: and women had a relative risk of death of 2.58 and 2.00,
:: respectively, as compared with those with a body-mass
:: index of 23.5 to 24.9. Black men and women with the
:: highest body-mass indexes had much lower risks of death
:: (1.35 and 1.21), which did not differ significantly from
:: 1.00. A high body-mass index was most predictive of death
:: from cardiovascular disease, especially in men (relative
:: risk, 2.90; 95 percent confidence interval, 2.37 to
:: 3.56). Heavier men and women in all age groups had an
:: increased risk of death.
::
:: Conclusions The risk of death from all causes,
:: cardiovascular disease, cancer, or other diseases
:: increases throughout the range of moderate and severe
:: overweight for both men and women in all age groups. The
:: risk associated with a high body-mass index is greater
:: for whites than for blacks.
::
:: GG
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