Paketa Magnesium bikes rule!



Originally posted by little_chicken
Beat the nr1 ? not too sure about this since the frame was design with the fatigue criteria in mind, rather than pure stress. If you want specific tech info, get in touch directly with the Litech's guys at their web site. Paketa is just the US brand name .. like Cervelo or Opus ..

weight of a 56, probably around 2.6-7 lbs without fork

Thanks for the long material post, but no not what I was looking for.

I dont´t have to get in touch with anyone, the paketa guy promised he would post the results (see page 1 post).

Maybe you should read about the EFBE test it´s fatigue,stress, STW everything. It´s THE biketest except for one very important factor, handling. But then one could argue that high STW would ensure very precise handling.

You sayin cervelo´s arent made by cervelo? Who then? I´m curious.
 
Originally posted by little_chicken
mrowkoob .. this is probably what you are looking for ..


Usually the comparison and choice of the materials begins with the juxtaposition of their tensile strength and/or 0.2% proof stress (óTS or óPS). But, as a rule, these parameters have a very indirect relationship to the reliability of the majority of real constructions, especially welded constructions. There are many reasons for this. Note: the majority of examples described here are based upon our experience in the manufacture of welded bicycle frames.

In practice, constructions are extremely rarely broken due to the load exceeding the static material stress limit.

For example, high quality steel bicycle frames made of chrome-moly steel with óTS > 90 kg/mm2 have seat tubes typically of 28.6 x 1.0 mm (external diameter x wall thickness). This means that a force > 8 tons is necessary to break such a tube by static tension. The same situation is observed in
bicycle frames made of magnesium alloy (óTS > 32 kg/mm2) when a tensile force > 7 tons is necessary for static breaking of the standard seat tube 34,8 x 2,0 mm. Obviously the weight of even the heaviest cyclist is many times less. However, we see that in practice the seat tube is sometimes cracked and broken.

In fact, the primary cause of construction collapse is connected with fatigue - remember that it's very difficult to break iron wire by one tension or bending. But it's easy to do by repeatedly bending from side to side a few times). That is the reason why it is more correct to compare the materials by their fatigue limit (ó-1) for the corresponding amount of loading cycles. Usually the stand fatigue tests of bicycle frames demand from 100 000 to 1 million loading cycles. For other constructions the amount of reiterations may sufficiently differ: from 1-10 thousand to hundred million and more. It's rather curious that often the choice between two materials depends on the necessary amount of working cycles.

For the majority of real constructions it is even more correct to compare
the materials considering fatigue limit with stress concentration (fatigue
limit with notch ó-1n) which usually takes place. In welded constructions stress concentration is always just around the welds. Again, one material can be better when comparing ó-1 parameter and the other in case of ó-1n comparison when the first one is more sensitive to stress concentrators.

Thus we see that the choice of different material based simply on the comparison of tensile or proof strength may be absolutely false. This is due to the fact that fatigue breaking depends not only on the static strength parameters but also on possible elongation, visco-elastic properties including fracture toughness, fatigue crack growth, etc. For example, a quite good aluminum alloy of the Al-Zn-Cu-Mg system with the density ñ = 2.85 g/cm3 has the following mechanical properties óTS = 57 kg/mm2 , ó-1 = 16 kg/mm2, ó-1n = 9 kg/mm2 (for 20 million cycles). And one of the magnesium alloys of the Al-Zn-Cu-Mg system with the density ñ = 1.8 g/cm3 has the following properties: óTS = 32 kg/mm2 , ó-1 = 13 kg/mm2, ó-1n = 10 kg/mm2 (and that is for 50 million cycles). Thus, the specific mechanical characteristics (given in relative units) of these alloys are as follows:





Table 1

We can conclude that a "worse" magnesium alloy from the point of view of its static strength is much better by its fatigue parameters. Furthermore, the type of destruction (sudden brittle or steady viscous fracture) is a very important characteristic for any consumer. And namely the absence of instant brittle fracture can guarantee your safety.

Moreover, in case of welded constructions it’s not quite correct to use even ó-1 or ó-1n parameters for comparison, which are usually given for materials in the reference books. The fact is that a strong heat in the weld area and surrounds changes (and usually for the worse) the material’s structure and mechanical properties. As a rule, the welded construction breaks “in the weld” or near the weld. It should be noted that usually reference books give the data related to static tensile strength of the weld and rarely give information on fatigue properties of the weld.


2. Trusses and frames are two principally different construction types studied in the theory. The truss elements work mostly under tension-compression loads. The frame parts work under bend and torsion actions. It's quite logical for trusses to compare the materials by the ó/ñ (any necessary ó) parameter because both the strength and weight are linearly proportional to their cross-section. However, the same approach is incorrect for frames when the weight and strength (stiffness) are in different dependence on material properties. Thus, for frames in particular, the advantages of light alloys became clear and obvious.

Let us illustrate the above by a simple (but aposite) numerical example.

A) We have a plate of cross-section S being extended with the force F. In this case the specific load (stress) in the material is equal to F/S and reliability condition is


F/S < ómax (1)

The precise ómax value (óTS, ó-1, ó-1 n) depends on the loading type (static, periodic, pulsed), presence and type of concentrators, etc., is not important now. The condition (1) defines minimal admissible area of the plate:


S > F/ómax (2)

and for constant length l of the plate its weight M has the lower limit:


M = ñlS > ñlF/ómax = lF(ómax/ñ) -1 (3)

This means that the bigger is ómax/ñ ratio, the lighter the plate which can withstand the given external force. It is the same combination of material characteristics that we have already considered above.

B) Now we have the same plate affixed in one end, for example welded to a powerful support. The force is applied to the other end of the plate creating the bending moment Fl. In accordance with the theory stress in the material reaches maximum near the support and its value is proportional to such ratio:


ó ~ Fl/h2 (4)

where h is the plate thickness and here we do not indicate all the numerical coefficients. If the maximal admissible stress is ómax, then we again calculate the minimal thickness of the plate can withstand the given external moment


hmin ~ (Fl/ómax) 1/2 (5)

and, correspondingly, the minimal weight of the plate (assuming constant width) is defined as


Mmin ~ ñhmin ~ ñ (Fl/ómax )1/2 ~ (ñ2 / ómax ) 1/2 (6)

This means that a smaller weight plate can be produced out of the material with the smallest ratio (ñ2 /ómax )1/2 or with the bigger combination of ómax /ñ2 parameters (it is the second power of previous ratio inverse value). If we rewrite this combination as (ómax /ñ)/ñ the increase of smaller density influence becomes obvious.

Now we shall take the same two alloys (aluminum-based and magnesium-based) considered above and make a table, which can help us to compare the weight of the constructions giving the same reliability depending on the type of the load. In the case of tension-compression actions (hereinafter indicated as T-C) the materials are compared by the ó/ñ parameter, and in the case of bends and torsions (hereinafter indicated as B-T) they are compared by ó1/2/ñ parameter (if ó is measured in kg/mm2 and ñ is measured in g/cm3 the conventional units are used):





Table 2

Thus now we see that in the case of bending the advantage of using low density materials increases and it is much more desirable to use magnesium even for an occasional static bend. In comparison with heavier alloys the weight economy rises considerably. A titanium plate having the same length, width and weight as a magnesium one will be able to stand the destruction by the same bending moment only if it is 6.25 times stronger (titanium is 2.5 times heavier than magnesium). And you will need a titanium alloy having tensile strength equal to 200 kg/mm2 to replace a magnesium alloy with óTS = 32 kg/mm2 ! Taking into account that real strength of the titanium alloys is 2-2.5 lower, the magnesium plate will be as much lighter.

As a conclusion to this paragraph we would like to point out the following: the plate rigidity is proportional to the Eh3 product where E is the Young modulus. The specific stiffness E/ñ is almost equal for the majority of alloys (except for the beryllium ones). The difference does not exceed 4-5%. As a result, a magnesium plate having the same weight as a titanium one (2.5 times thicker) can not only withstand almost a double load but is also approximately 6 (2.52 ) times stiffer. Although the precise dependencies change for tubes and other profiles, the principle of
substantial increase of efficiency of light alloys application for the frames totally remains.


3. There is a minimum thickness for plates, tubes, etc. In practice you cannot use very thin profiles in constructions even if the conditions of sufficient stiffness permit to do so in theory. For example, when producing magnesium bicycle frames the tube wall thickness ä is normally equal to 1.5-2.2 mm at the diameter D of 40-60 mm. A steel tube of the same diameter and weight will have the wall as thick as 0.35-0.5 mm (steel is 4.4 times heavier). It is rather hard to process such tubes mechanically, weld them, etc. The last problem is partially resolved by using tubes having variable thickness where the weld area is thicker (butted tubes). Yet we can use the same approach to the lighter alloys. In other places (except the weld zone) the minimum thickness of the tube wall is limited by the condition of rigidity towards the side loads (incidences, impacts, etc.). In such cases the stability of the tube drops sharply with the decrease of the ratio of the wall thickness to the tube diameter ä/D. As a result thin steel tubes having the same diameter as magnesium ones crumple easily like beer cans.

It might have seemed possible to decrease the steel tube diameter, for example, by 1.5 times and to raise the wall thickness accordingly. This could potentially lead to substantial rise of tube stability towards the side shocks and crumpling without changing its weight. But this also leads to reduction of ordinary stiffness according to the decrease of the product äD3 that drops in 1,52 = 2.25! It explains why lighter magnesium frames are stiffer than those made of heavier alloys.


4. Until now we discussed issues of stiffness and reliability in the case of cyclic loads on some abstract elements and welded constructions, but not real ones. The analysis was useful though substantially incomplete. We considered neither frequency (frequencies) of the loads nor their character (smooth loads, impacts, etc.). In reality, the type and character of the external load plays a great role not only for the reliability (resource) of the product but also for its consumer qualities. To be more precise we will take a bicycle frame as an example for our analysis.

A bicycle frame is a construction having its own oscillation frequencies (resonances), to which external forces are applied within a wide range of frequencies. These are impacts (up to 1000 Hz), riding on a rough road (up to 200 Hz), pedaling (up to 3-5 Hz) with all their various harmonics and other aspects. You will know what happens when the frequency of a small load coincides with the resonance frequency of a very rigid construction. This can be illustrated by the classic example of a bridge's collapse caused simply by an infantry battalion marching across hen that same bridge had easily withstood tanks driving over it.

This means that the most important reliability characteristic of the construction in real exploitation conditions is the ability to oppose resonances. That is the ability to absorb and disperse the energy of the impacts and cyclic loads by "smoothening" the resonance. The importance of this property is due to the fact that destruction of the constructions working in a wide range of the loading frequencies is mostly explained by the growth of oscillations (vibrations) on the resonance frequencies.

Oscillations can be suppressed by appropriate measures undertaken in the two directions. The first one is the optimizing of the construction, tuning its resonance frequencies away from the typical frequencies of the external influence, exclusion of coincidence of one resonance frequency and the harmonic of the other resonance frequency, etc. The second one is the use of materials having high damping characteristics. This leads to rapid fading of free oscillations in the construction, decrease of the amplitudes of forced resonance oscillations and abrupt decrease of stresses caused by impacts. As a result it is often more appropriate to give preference to the material having higher damping qualities with formally smaller fatigue parameters when working with impact loads. The logarithmic fading decrement ä (showing reduction of the amplitude of free oscillations within a period) or the damping index Ø (showing the part of energy being dispersed in the material within one oscillation period) are used for description of damping properties of the material, where Ø = 2ä.

Let us assume: the static load Fst (force, moment, etc.) causes the deformation in the element of the construction equal to Ast. It is easy to show that the cyclic load Fstcosùt at the resonance frequency ù leads to deformation equal to (ð/ä)Ast. The tension in the element in its linear approach grows as much. For example, if ä = 0.5% then the deformation and the stress at the resonance frequency will increase by 630 times!!! Surely, often only a small part of the external influence is applied at the resonance frequency but it leads to colossal upraise! It means that in many cases the materials should be compared by the product Øó-1 /ñ and not by the ó-1 or ó-1 /ñ parameters.

Good alloys usually may have little difference in ó/ñ characteristic but they differ for numerical orders by their damping qualities. Moreover, a slight change of the alloying element concentration may result in a serious change of the damping capacity of the alloy.

It should be noted that the Ø value seriously depends on the amplitude of the applied load. It is clear that when a load near the elastic limit is applied a substantial part of the mechanical energy is dispersed in the material and the Ø coefficient is quite high. In practice it is desirable that Ø value is to be high under stress of the ó-1 level when the material really can stand multiple cyclic loads. When the tension is approximately equal to (ó-1)/2 the Ø value (it should be mentioned that the exact determination of the Ø value is more difficult than that of the standard mechanic characteristics) of the most widespread materials is as follows:
Quality steels: Ø ~ (0,2-0,5-1)%;
Titanium alloys: Ø ~ (0,03-0,05-0,08)%;
Aluminum alloys: Ø ~ (0,05-0,1-0,2)%;
Magnesium alloys: Ø ~ (0,5-2-10)%.

Let look now at magnesium alloys. They include some high-proof alloys having poor damping qualities of the aluminum kind. But the most important thing is that there are quality magnesium alloys having great damping characteristics in comparison to the usually used materials. If an automobile wheel or a bicycle frame are made of such an alloy then even ordinary consumer will easily feel the difference without putting them through the specials tests.



Thanks for posting that. I think it should dispell alot of BS that MG alloy is actually high in Mg. The known alloys with Mg in it are composed of very small amounts of Mg (less than 10%) as your text shows. In fact, the links that I posted show similar properties. None of which the Brit moron took the time to read, even when I gave direct quotes.
 
Originally posted by BaCardi
Thanks for posting that. I think it should dispell alot of BS that MG alloy is actually high in Mg. The known alloys with Mg in it are composed of very small amounts of Mg (less than 10%) as your text shows. In fact, the links that I posted show similar properties. None of which the Brit moron took the time to read, even when I gave direct quotes.

Now pin-head go back and re-read that article s-l-o-w-l-y and grasp the meaning of the nice words before you start calling people morons.

Magnesium alloys are based on magnesium, something like a "high-magnesium alloy" that you find listed in literature from an aluminum processor will be an aluminum alloy with a relatively high amount of Mg as a modifier; not a magnesium alloy. Here is a link to the standard compostion tables for true magnesium alloys. Take a gander.

http://www.magnesium.com/w3/data-bank/index.php?mgw=191

..and when you find yourself stuck in a hole - stop digging!!
 
To my knowledge, Cervelo's HQ is in Toronto CA .. and there is no manufacturing plant .. They design, well don't get me going on this one .. and outsource .. I am only speculating Merida .. since they also produce a load of Al frame ..

Bacardi .. the frames we are talking about are made og 94% Mg and the balance is misc (Al, Zn, etc...) .. you need to improve your treading skills ..and this material is way out of your league ..
 
Originally posted by little_chicken
To my knowledge, Cervelo's HQ is in Toronto CA .. and there is no manufacturing plant .. They design, well don't get me going on this one .. and outsource .. I am only speculating Merida .. since they also produce a load of Al frame ..

Bacardi .. the frames we are talking about are made og 94% Mg and the balance is misc (Al, Zn, etc...) .. you need to improve your treading skills ..and this material is way out of your league ..


no, I already know that. The links I posted and your link state otherwise about Mg alloy being greater than 10%. Syas so right there in your very own link, near the bottom of table 2. Now, show me ANYWHERE, in that link or mine or elsewhere, where it is greater. The claims that it is 94% is not from any independept party other than Litech. Where? Post it.
 
Nice post Chicken. Explains nicely the benefits of a lighter material like the Mg alloy. Covers alot (t-c, bending, dampening). May take a few more reads to really digest.

Bacardi, where the hell does it say in that post that Mg alloys are less than 10% Mg. I think you will need a new shovel soon. Your old one must be wearing out.

I would like to learn more about the use of Mg for Bikes. My interest is peaked.
 
Originally posted by BaCardi
The links I posted and your link state otherwise about Mg alloy being greater than 10%... Now, show me ANYWHERE, in that link or mine or elsewhere, where it is greater... Where? Post it.

Here are two references to high-purity magnesium alloys, completely unrelated to Paketa, Litech, or powder. One deals with a patent for an 85% alloy used for hydrogen storage, and the other describes Mg alloys used for die-casting. Study the alloy composition table closely.

http://www.delphion.com/details?pn10=US05976276

http://www.legaluminum.com/alloys.phtml#MAGNESIUMALLOYS
What did you decide about magnesium being not a ductile metal, by the way?
 
Originally posted by BaCardi
Thanks for posting that. I think it should dispell alot of BS that MG alloy is actually high in Mg. The known alloys with Mg in it are composed of very small amounts of Mg (less than 10%) as your text shows.
Aaaah, you wouldn't happen to be mistaking the figures for the Damping Index as being the figures for the content of Mg......would you??? Looks like the World is conspiring against you, Bacardi.
The ISO-recognised Magnesium Alloy with the LOWEST Magnesium content is MgAl6Zn3. It has a minimum Magnesium content of 88.26%. In the case of M11311 & M11312 Magnesium Alloys, the content can be as high as 97.00%. That is, if you haven't grasped it, the Magnesium content of International Standards Organisation- recognised Magnesium Alloys ranges between 88.26% and 97.00%. Would these fall within your own category of "the known alloys with Mg in it"?
This is why they are called Magnesium.....Alloys. They are, primarily, Magnesium.
Next week, kids, we're going to be looking at the fascinating properties of flocculating gels and their applications within the Drilling Mud Industry. Be sure to bring a pencil with you....

Eoin C
 
Originally posted by EoinC
Next week, kids, we're going to be looking at the fascinating properties of flocculating gels and their applications within the Drilling Mud Industry. Be sure to bring a pencil with you....
Don't think so, buddy. We'd better start somewhere easier so the *whole class* can catch up. Something involving potato-powered clocks, maybe.
 
Originally posted by BaCardi
no, I already know that. The links I posted and your link state otherwise about Mg alloy being greater than 10%. Syas so right there in your very own link, near the bottom of table 2. Now, show me ANYWHERE, in that link or mine or elsewhere, where it is greater. The claims that it is 94% is not from any independept party other than Litech. Where? Post it.

Your links are **** Bacardi. Something about the health of lakes and other bodies of water (they mention A bit about Mg in the water)

The other is some elementary school experiment about burning Mg. The biggest piece of info was on how to extinguish it.

Both are ****.

Please put the shovel down.

EoinC do we need our sliderules or can we bring those new things called calculators to this class.:D
 
Originally posted by KingB
EoinC do we need our sliderules or can we bring those new things called calculators to this class.:D
Sliderule, HB Pencil, A4 unlined Paper and no talking during the examination. Turn over your Question Papers.......Now.

1) Flocculating Gels are made up of platelets suspended in......
 
The post I added is there for a reason .. I did'nt put it there just for show and illustrate my cut and paste skills.. if you read between the lines you will find a lot .. I mean a lot.. of similarities with the Paketa frame .. and its not by some kind of chance.. it explains the technical direction of the manufacturer .. something I found out by doing some creative X-Ref .. research.

explains the rigidity (oversize tubes), dampening (wall thickness and dampening prop.. and yes someone jumped right in that one ..) lightness (low density, although they could make them much lighter if they really wanted but it would end up like those super light Al frame that you can only race once, I called them disposable frame) .. etc ..

But how does it really compare ? anyone with a real life test ?
 
Originally posted by lokstah
It really has been a while since we've heard from the mag-frame bike riding contingent (both of them). I really would like to hear more about the experiences of those who've got'em.

Like I said in a post ages ago, back when this thread was cool, I've actually got an Easton EM90 Mag stem on my Giant; it's neat. It's fairly light, though not groundbreakingly so, but I do feel it improved ride quality over the stock alloy/carbon-core stem which ships with TCRs. It's a novelty stem, anyways. Fun to have. Hope it holds up... it's got about a year behind it so far, and looks good.


For those of you who have been following this for awhile, please note that we (Paketa Cycles) have offered to provide the results of the alloy analysis we have had done. To be fair, quite a few people on this site have taken us up on that, but sadly, not the one(s) whom I thought should have.

So, without further ado, here is the alloy composition of the Paketa / Litech tubing:

#1 #2
%Al 4.5 4.5

%Zn 0.92 0.91

%Mn 0.26 0.24

%Fe 0.011 0.010

%Ni 0.0010 0.0010

%Cu 0.002 0.002

%Si 0.010 0.009

%Pb 0.001 0.001

%Ca 0.001 0.001

%Sn <0.001 <0.001

%Be N.D. N.D.

N.D. – not detected

Two samples were tested, and the "missing" 94+ % is the magnesium content.

I think it is fairly obvious that Paketa has partnered with Litech to produce frames for us as a private label arangement. Nothing unusual about this in most industries. To say that Paketa knows nothing about magnesium frame manufacture would be quite wrong. In fact, we have worked in tandem with Litech to improve their initial product significantly over the past 3 years. The result is the current Paketa product which is exclusive to Paketa, and amounts to more than just simple changes in geometry.

The data little_chicken cites is exactly why we embarked on this endeavour. There is hard evidence to support the reasons why we believe magnesium alloys (used intellgently) can be the best possible frame material from a weight / durability / stiffness / ride quality perspective. We, and our customers, believe that the Paketa magnesium alloy frame rides better than anything else available. (Although I haven't had the opportunity to ride Pinarello's Dogma, I would bet it's a pretty sweet ride too.)

Jim, Paketa Cycles
 
Welcome back, Jim, and thanks for the info. The majority of us are happy to have you around to comment.

How large is your distribution here in the states, and elsewhere? What are Paketa's plans? Any chance I'll be able to test ride a Litech-made frame (or a Mg frame from any maker, for that matter) at my LBS any time soon?
 
So, without further ado, here is the alloy composition of the Paketa / Litech tubing:

#1 #2
%Al 4.5 4.5

%Zn 0.92 0.91

%Mn 0.26 0.24

%Fe 0.011 0.010

%Ni 0.0010 0.0010

%Cu 0.002 0.002

%Si 0.010 0.009

%Pb 0.001 0.001

%Ca 0.001 0.001

%Sn <0.001 <0.001

%Be N.D. N.D.

N.D. – not detected

Two samples were tested, and the "missing" 94+ % is the magnesium content.
That fits in with the composition parameters of the Magnesium Alloy known as MA5TS1, or a derivative. Any comments, Bacardi?....Bacardi?....Now, where did he go?
 
Thks Jim for your input .. and for the record, I am a strong beleiver of Mg frames, I don't have one but will most probably will very shortly. Their mechanical prop. appear to be quite attractive, knowing that you equip a full race team how do they age ? pls provide any information you feel appropriate.


Cheers
 
I am also aware that a team fully equiped with Dogma's had to resend them straight to Pinarello after less than a year.. any clues why this happened ?
 
I don't know why you guys even bother arguing with BaCardi. This is an interesting topic but what a huge waste of time. He's obviously a troll who thinks that he knows more than evryone else about every topic that comes around the pike. Look at some other threads that he has offered his "input" on. He's NEVER wrong, c'mon!

Seriously, this guy's just blowing more bile out of his mud-hole like he always does.