Rasmussen admits lying but says Rabobank was in on it

[stilesiii]

Rabobank report about the Rasmussen case (full report in PDF format below the story):
http://www.cyclingheroes.info/id991.html

What a great cover up for an even greater screw up.

Bottom line: Rasmussen was fully qualified to ride in the 07 Tour according to the UCI, and Rabo pulled the man for lying about his whereabouts. Yet, he was traveling and meeting with team officials the whole time.

 

[poulidor]

What a great cover up for an even greater screw up.

Bottom line: Rasmussen was fully qualified to ride in the 07 Tour according to the UCI, and Rabo pulled the man for lying about his whereabouts. Yet, he was traveling and meeting with team officials the whole time.

So the whole team should have been pulled out !

 

[plectrum]

So the whole team should have been pulled out !

Possibly yes, but neither Rasmussen nor Rabobank actually commited a crime that warrented exclusion

On another side do you think that during the off season training riders like to not get tested on certain days as they are testing specific routes with specific doping products.

This perhaps could have been exactly what Ras was up to in Alps and Pyre

The problem with out of competition is they are unscheduled whereas the Tour tests are precisely scheduled.

 

[plectrum]

Also will any team take Rasmussen for the 2008 tour and if he is part fo a team will they let them compete?

 

[Gregers]

Also will any team take Rasmussen for the 2008 tour and if he is part fo a team will they let them compete?

He'll be in with a shout at Astana if he can prove that he really is a doper. He'll have to show them the used syringes and some old Ht readouts of 60% to convince them, though. They don't just take any old doper, you know.

 

[plectrum]

He'll be in with a shout at Astana if he can prove that he really is a doper. He'll have to show them the used syringes and some old Ht readouts of 60% to convince them, though. They don't just take any old doper, you know.

Seriously thoigh do you think he has a chance of getting picked up or is he to slowly fade away.

 

[donrhummy]

No team will pick him up for one reason: the UCI has ZERO say in what teams get to compete in the TDF. ASO has stated that they're picking whatever teams they want and rejecting whatever teams they want regardless of ProTour status, and ASO hates Rasmussen. So pick him up and you're out of the TDF.

 

[Bro Deal]

No team will pick him up for one reason: the UCI has ZERO say in what teams get to compete in the TDF. ASO has stated that they're picking whatever teams they want and rejecting whatever teams they want regardless of ProTour status, and ASO hates Rasmussen. So pick him up and you're out of the TDF.

Yup. Ras's best hope is to find either an Italian or Spanish Pro Continental team that has a good chance of being invited to the Giro or Vuelta.

Even that has a low probability of happening. Ras deliberately misled the UCI about where he was. He has now admitted it, and under the rules avoiding a test counts as a positive. It looks like Gripper is going to push the issue, so he will be gone for two years. At his age it probably means the end of his career.

 

[snood]

And his training partner Menchov won the Vuelta.

 

[fscyclist]

I disagree, I reckon alot just get by doing the minimum, boosting their blood, maybe running test, but that would be about it.

I reckon Rass was pushing the envelope.

Why? You will suggest speculation.

Well, Rass obviously was ambitious enough to seek out artificial hemaglobin about 5 years back. And his performance's mimic Armstrong in some of the stages. Phenomenal. And I do not think Rabo was keeping him full with their doctor. He needed an associate outside the team. The team doc might have given him a bit, and corticos, but not the other illegal stuff. But Rabo docs probably still giving cardiac drugs, and all those that work on the lung system, etc, then the blood drugs, not EPO, but that aid viscosity or takeup of oxygen. It is mind boggling what they have in the docs kitbag.

Well, we'll just disagree on one point then. I think most ProTour riders use a lot of dope. The evidence from retroactive sampling, blood paramater monitoring, team doping doctors and blood bags in Spain all point to major doping in the sport.

What I was really getting at is I don't feel this (rider's doping) is the real issue right now in cycling, as demonstrated by Ras being DQ'd from the tour. The real question is why some ProTour riders are allowed to dope and not others? And the follow on is why some riders are allowed to dope for years and then finally get a positive? And the next question is what did Landis and Ras do to the UCI/ASO or other persons or teams that resulted in their outing? The same may be said for other individuals such as Hamilton, Heras, and most all of the former Phonak. Sorry...but I don't believe much in the testing process. I think governing organizations, opposing teams and riders use it to target individuals and teams and help determine race outcomes as seen in this year's tour and possibly last year's as well.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but this year's tour really got me thinking. Ras' DQ was really ridiculous, especially knowing what has now been revealed. Do you think the UCI and/or ASO didn't hear any of this? It just doesn't make sense. Same with Puerto. Did no one in the UCI and/or ASO heard about Fuentes? How about Ferrari? I think they really didn't care, but when it came time to take out a rider, they had easy ammo with which to do it.

 

[Bro Deal]

What I was really getting at is I don't feel this (rider's doping) is the real issue right now in cycling, as demonstrated by Ras being DQ'd from the tour. The real question is why some ProTour riders are allowed to dope and not others? And the follow on is why some riders are allowed to dope for years and then finally get a positive? And the next question is what did Landis and Ras do to the UCI/ASO or other persons or teams that resulted in their outing? The same may be said for other individuals such as Hamilton, Heras, and most all of the former Phonak. Sorry...but I don't believe much in the testing process. I think governing organizations, opposing teams and riders use it to target individuals and teams and help determine race outcomes as seen in this year's tour and possibly last year's as well.

That is an interesting question. Why was Postal and Disco given a pass while Astana was watched like a hawk? Why did the UCI spend money to whitewash Armstrong's EPO positives?

I have always thought that there were some strange patterns to positves. Why did Rumsus get throught the Tour with enough gear for a couple of teams but once he became an embarrassment, he tested positive at the Giro? That was very convenient. Additionally, why has Rumsas disappeared even though his ban expired long ago? Phonak riders tested positive every other time they took a ****, and not just for one substance but for a huge range of them. Why was Hamilton targeted instead of Ullrich or Armstrong?

The situation does not smell right. It reeks of corruption, but there is no evidence to suggest whether its bribery, the UCI trying to manage the positives so it looks like they are doing something, friendships or cliques within the sport, etc.

 

[fscyclist]

That is an interesting question. Why was Postal and Disco given a pass while Astana was watched like a hawk? Why did the UCI spend money to whitewash Armstrong's EPO positives?

I have always thought that there were some strange patterns to positves. Why did Rumsus get throught the Tour with enough gear for a couple of teams but once he became an embarrassment, he tested positive at the Giro? That was very convenient. Additionally, why has Rumsas disappeared even though his ban expired long ago? Phonak riders tested positive every other time they took a ****, and not just for one substance but for a huge range of them. Why was Hamilton targeted instead of Ullrich or Armstrong?

The situation does not smell right. It reeks of corruption, but there is no evidence to suggest whether its bribery, the UCI trying to manage the positives so it looks like they are doing something, friendships or cliques within the sport, etc.

Exactly...these positive tests appear at times that do not seem at all coincidental. We know Landis had something like 5 urine samples with synthetic testosterone in them, but he didn't test positive until it was clear he would win. People knew Ras lied about his whereabouts but it didn't become an issue until it was clear he would win. The utter destruction of Phonak through positive tests seems strange especially when we know T-Mob likely had a more rigorous drug program going at the same time. As you stated, it reeks of corruption, and you're right that we don't know exactly where it begins or who's responsible. But that is the TRUE story behind cycling right now, not the individual doping of the riders.

 

[snood]

Exactly...these positive tests appear at times that do not seem at all coincidental. We know Landis had something like 5 urine samples with synthetic testosterone in them, but he didn't test positive until it was clear he would win. People knew Ras lied about his whereabouts but it didn't become an issue until it was clear he would win. The utter destruction of Phonak through positive tests seems strange especially when we know T-Mob likely had a more rigorous drug program going at the same time. As you stated, it reeks of corruption, and you're right that we don't know exactly where it begins or who's responsible. But that is the TRUE story behind cycling right now, not the individual doping of the riders.

No. Landis knew how to escape detection. He screwed up before the stage in Morzine.

You are right generally. Many have said that members of the UCI are collaborators. Manzano has said that. That was said about Quickstep in the last winter. The Rasmussen report show the UCI does not want to do what WADA expects.

 

[thunder]

Thunder,

Lets make clear distinctions between talent and doping. Rasmussen always had talent and it peaked during 2007 TdF when his performances were amazing.

And then there is doping which I fully agree is highly likely was present in his performances.

Soler's biggest wina nd strognest performance were in this year's Tour. All I am saying is if all is so sure that Ras is a cheat then I cannot see much reason to belive a rider like Soler is not also.

Rasmussen is a great technical climber, obsessive Armstrong-esque mountain trainer and a consumate pro Tour rider.

Soler was a novice.

Are you sure you haven't been dining with McQuaid and are championing the Next Gen cyclists who have to be clean becuase they are young / the furture.

Your argument also falls quite short if it is based purely on age as Contadope is similar age as Soler and was on a par if not better in the mountain stages. This rider already has a tainted history with Puerta aswell as by association with the teams he rode for in the past.

I think Soler was doped, never said he was not.

Just sayin' his talent was evident to all those back in Colombia when he was 18.

 

[thunder]

Well, we'll just disagree on one point then. I think most ProTour riders use a lot of dope. The evidence from retroactive sampling, blood paramater monitoring, team doping doctors and blood bags in Spain all point to major doping in the sport.

What I was really getting at is I don't feel this (rider's doping) is the real issue right now in cycling, as demonstrated by Ras being DQ'd from the tour. The real question is why some ProTour riders are allowed to dope and not others? And the follow on is why some riders are allowed to dope for years and then finally get a positive? And the next question is what did Landis and Ras do to the UCI/ASO or other persons or teams that resulted in their outing? The same may be said for other individuals such as Hamilton, Heras, and most all of the former Phonak. Sorry...but I don't believe much in the testing process. I think governing organizations, opposing teams and riders use it to target individuals and teams and help determine race outcomes as seen in this year's tour and possibly last year's as well.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but this year's tour really got me thinking. Ras' DQ was really ridiculous, especially knowing what has now been revealed. Do you think the UCI and/or ASO didn't hear any of this? It just doesn't make sense. Same with Puerto. Did no one in the UCI and/or ASO heard about Fuentes? How about Ferrari? I think they really didn't care, but when it came time to take out a rider, they had easy ammo with which to do it.

FS good post.

Cyclingheroes has some good theories. Either he will post here, or message him, and ask him why.

I do think, that some teams do get sloppy, and give the testers a chance to nab them.

Some teams are less careful than CSC and Disco. No surprise they are never caught. They have the right political contacts and the good medical staff with good resources.

I agree with everything you said.

cheers

 

[plectrum]

Some teams are less careful than CSC and Disco. No surprise they are never caught. They have the right political contacts and the good medical staff with good resources.

Yes like Armstrong with his good mate George Bush and his bunch of compadres from the CIA

 

[limerickman]

What I was really getting at is I don't feel this (rider's doping) is the real issue right now in cycling, as demonstrated by Ras being DQ'd from the tour. The real question is why some ProTour riders are allowed to dope and not others? And the follow on is why some riders are allowed to dope for years and then finally get a positive? And the next question is what did Landis and Ras do to the UCI/ASO or other persons or teams that resulted in their outing? The same may be said for other individuals such as Hamilton, Heras, and most all of the former Phonak. Sorry...but I don't believe much in the testing process. I think governing organizations, opposing teams and riders use it to target individuals and teams and help determine race outcomes as seen in this year's tour and possibly last year's as well.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but this year's tour really got me thinking. Ras' DQ was really ridiculous, especially knowing what has now been revealed. Do you think the UCI and/or ASO didn't hear any of this? It just doesn't make sense. Same with Puerto. Did no one in the UCI and/or ASO heard about Fuentes? How about Ferrari? I think they really didn't care, but when it came time to take out a rider, they had easy ammo with which to do it.

Very very good post, FS.
You hit the salient point in all of this.

And yes, the UCI/ASO do know who dopes and they allow certain riders to get away with it, while other riders are "caught" and then cast aside.

I have it on bluechip authority that the UCI knew full well that Armstrong for example was doping and the UCI turned a blind eye to him and his team.
The reason he was allowed dope?

In Armstrong's case, he got his "pass to dope" in 1995 in Limoges.
1995 in Limoges?
Sure he wasn't exactly lighting the world up back then.
But an unfortunate tragedy and it's immediate aftermath gave Armstrong a bargaining chip.

TDF 1995 : Fabio Casartelli of the Motorola team dies while descending a mountain in the Pyrennees on Col De Portet D'Aspet
His death, naturally, was covered by the world media.

The stage immediately after Casartelli died, to Pau, was "processional".
Indurain/Jalabert/Riis - the top riders - went to the ASO/TDF and said that the stage would be solemn. No racing, just riding quietly in memory of Fabio.
Again there was worldwide coverage of that processional stage.
TV and radio stations which would never cover live TDF stages, covered that stage to Pau.
Motorola, as a team with Armstrong as their leader, were allowed by Indurain/Jalabert/Riis to cross the line of that stage while the rest of the peloton held back.
The result that day was neutralised.

A couple of days later, the stages were back in competitive mode, Armstrong managed to get away and won a stage in to Limoges.
If you look at the final 500 metres of that stage, you see Armstrong gesturing up to the sky, on the pretext of offering this win in the memory of his fallen tea mate, Fabio Casartelli.
Again, positive (excuse the pun) TV/Media coverage - what a great guy to remember his team mate, etc.

Roll the film on to 1998 - Festina.
Savage stuff. Soigneur for Festina is arrested after his car is stopped on it's way to Dublin stuffed with dope.
World wide media coverage ensues.
Festina manager (Roussel) is arrested.
Casino rider, Rudolfo Massi, who waltzed up the mountains destroying Virenque/Pantani gets busted for doping and is publicly stripped of his King of the Mountains jersey. Worldwide coverage.
Festina, the entire team, is thrown off the TDF. Worldwide coverage of their departure with Richard Virenque ensues.
TVM team gets busted for doping at TDF and is thrown off the Tour. World wide coverage.
ONCE, the No 1 cycling team in the world walks away from the TDF. Worldwide coverage.
Jan Riis and Luc LeBlance are filmed standing toe to toe pointing and shouting at each other over the how best to demonstrate riders annoyance at all this adverse media coverage at the TDF.

Professional cycling on it's knees. UCI is under seige.

Aug-Dec 1998 carries nothing but accusation and counter accusation and court appearances instigated by the French authorities.
Zulle/Virenque/Bourchard and Dufaux - world champions/grand champions are all busted for doping.
Rumour and counter rumour ensue.
Wholesale migration of riders living in the south of France (Nice) to places like Girona and Switzerland because the French police have started to take an active interest in the nest of doping called Cycling.

Vuelta September 1998 : superb race, the final result in the balance practically to the final stage.
Abraham Olano wins.........but who finishes 4th after returning from cancer?
Armstrong.
A good news story. A great news story.
In all this fallout, in all this rumour/counter rumour, the UCI at that point decided that Armstrong was to be the "good news story" of a sport that was on it's knees.
Man gets up of deathbed and manages to finish 4th in the Vuelta.
Positive, worldwide media coverage for a sport that was literally in the ****.
That's when the Faustian pact was sealed.
Certain UCI members at that time, have admitted this (off the record, naturally).

When Armstrong's usefulness as a rider/publicist was deemed finished, the UCI did what it always does, it allowed the real truth to come out.
The UCI leaked the rider identity of the 6 positives from the 1999 TDF.

The UCI know and the UCI has and will tolerate doping for a variety of reasons.

 

[thunder]

Very very good post, FS.
You hit the salient point in all of this.

And yes, the UCI/ASO do know who dopes and they allow certain riders to get away with it, while other riders are "caught" and then cast aside.

I have it on bluechip authority that the UCI knew full well that Armstrong for example was doping and the UCI turned a blind eye to him and his team.
The reason he was allowed dope?

In Armstrong's case, he got his "pass to dope" in 1995 in Limoges.
1995 in Limoges?
Sure he wasn't exactly lighting the world up back then.
But an unfortunate tragedy and it's immediate aftermath gave Armstrong a bargaining chip.

TDF 1995 : Fabio Casartelli of the Motorola team dies while descending a mountain in the Pyrennees on Col De Portet D'Aspet
His death, naturally, was covered by the world media.

The stage immediately after Casartelli died, to Pau, was "processional".
Indurain/Jalabert/Riis - the top riders - went to the ASO/TDF and said that the stage would be solemn. No racing, just riding quietly in memory of Fabio.
Again there was worldwide coverage of that processional stage.
TV and radio stations which would never cover live TDF stages, covered that stage to Pau.
Motorola, as a team with Armstrong as their leader, were allowed by Indurain/Jalabert/Riis to cross the line of that stage while the rest of the peloton held back.
The result that day was neutralised.

A couple of days later, the stages were back in competitive mode, Armstrong managed to get away and won a stage in to Limoges.
If you look at the final 500 metres of that stage, you see Armstrong gesturing up to the sky, on the pretext of offering this win in the memory of his fallen tea mate, Fabio Casartelli.
Again, positive (excuse the pun) TV/Media coverage - what a great guy to remember his team mate, etc.

Roll the film on to 1998 - Festina.
Savage stuff. Soigneur for Festina is arrested after his car is stopped on it's way to Dublin stuffed with dope.
World wide media coverage ensues.
Festina manager (Roussel) is arrested.
Casino rider, Rudolfo Massi, who waltzed up the mountains destroying Virenque/Pantani gets busted for doping and is publicly stripped of his King of the Mountains jersey. Worldwide coverage.
Festina, the entire team, is thrown off the TDF. Worldwide coverage of their departure with Richard Virenque ensues.
TVM team gets busted for doping at TDF and is thrown off the Tour. World wide coverage.
ONCE, the No 1 cycling team in the world walks away from the TDF. Worldwide coverage.
Jan Riis and Luc LeBlance are filmed standing toe to toe pointing and shouting at each other over the how best to demonstrate riders annoyance at all this adverse media coverage at the TDF.

Professional cycling on it's knees. UCI is under seige.

Aug-Dec 1998 carries nothing but accusation and counter accusation and court appearances instigated by the French authorities.
Zulle/Virenque/Bourchard and Dufaux - world champions/grand champions are all busted for doping.
Rumour and counter rumour ensue.
Wholesale migration of riders living in the south of France (Nice) to places like Girona and Switzerland because the French police have started to take an active interest in the nest of doping called Cycling.

Vuelta September 1998 : superb race, the final result in the balance practically to the final stage.
Abraham Olano wins.........but who finishes 4th after returning from cancer?
Armstrong.
A good news story. A great news story.
In all this fallout, in all this rumour/counter rumour, the UCI at that point decided that Armstrong was to be the "good news story" of a sport that was on it's knees.
Man gets up of deathbed and manages to finish 4th in the Vuelta.
Positive, worldwide media coverage for a sport that was literally in the ****.
That's when the Faustian pact was sealed.
Certain UCI members at that time, have admitted this (off the record, naturally).

When Armstrong's usefulness as a rider/publicist was deemed finished, the UCI did what it always does, it allowed the real truth to come out.
The UCI leaked the rider identity of the 6 positives from the 1999 TDF.

The UCI know and the UCI has and will tolerate doping for a variety of reasons.

if you can be used for marketing purposes, you will be protected.

Landis had his story in the NY Times with his dodgy hip.

Why did they pull him down? Good question. They could have covered it up. Surely Landis would have been a better story than Pereiro. But I think, with Basso, and Ullrich, they had to bust him when they found out.

They could have tried to hide it, but it probably would have leaked and they did not have the strength to suppress it.

If Landis beat Ullrich and Basso, then it would have been interesting. What they would have done then. I think they may have tried to hide it.

 

[limerickman]

Exactly - it's an exercise in marketing.

My guess is that if Festina had not happened, we would have had a very different outcome from 1998 onwards.

The central point is that the UCI are expedient.

I'm telling you - that's why guys like McQuaid get elected.
Pat will trot out the same platitiudes, without any scruples whatsoever.
He knows in his heart that what he's saying is baloney but he keeps to the script until he senses a tipping point.
And only when the tipping point is reached, will he change tack.
(and that doesn't mean that he will tell the truth........it means he will change tack and take the line that is most expedient.......and if that line happens to be the truth, then so be it)

 

[wolfix]

Very very good post, FS.
You hit the salient point in all of this.

And yes, the UCI/ASO do know who dopes and they allow certain riders to get away with it, while other riders are "caught" and then cast aside.

I have it on bluechip authority that the UCI knew full well that Armstrong for example was doping and the UCI turned a blind eye to him and his team.
The reason he was allowed dope?

In Armstrong's case, he got his "pass to dope" in 1995 in Limoges.
1995 in Limoges?
Sure he wasn't exactly lighting the world up back then.
But an unfortunate tragedy and it's immediate aftermath gave Armstrong a bargaining chip.

TDF 1995 : Fabio Casartelli of the Motorola team dies while descending a mountain in the Pyrennees on Col De Portet D'Aspet
His death, naturally, was covered by the world media.

The stage immediately after Casartelli died, to Pau, was "processional".
Indurain/Jalabert/Riis - the top riders - went to the ASO/TDF and said that the stage would be solemn. No racing, just riding quietly in memory of Fabio.
Again there was worldwide coverage of that processional stage.
TV and radio stations which would never cover live TDF stages, covered that stage to Pau.
Motorola, as a team with Armstrong as their leader, were allowed by Indurain/Jalabert/Riis to cross the line of that stage while the rest of the peloton held back.
The result that day was neutralised.

A couple of days later, the stages were back in competitive mode, Armstrong managed to get away and won a stage in to Limoges.
If you look at the final 500 metres of that stage, you see Armstrong gesturing up to the sky, on the pretext of offering this win in the memory of his fallen tea mate, Fabio Casartelli.
Again, positive (excuse the pun) TV/Media coverage - what a great guy to remember his team mate, etc.

Roll the film on to 1998 - Festina.
Savage stuff. Soigneur for Festina is arrested after his car is stopped on it's way to Dublin stuffed with dope.
World wide media coverage ensues.
Festina manager (Roussel) is arrested.
Casino rider, Rudolfo Massi, who waltzed up the mountains destroying Virenque/Pantani gets busted for doping and is publicly stripped of his King of the Mountains jersey. Worldwide coverage.
Festina, the entire team, is thrown off the TDF. Worldwide coverage of their departure with Richard Virenque ensues.
TVM team gets busted for doping at TDF and is thrown off the Tour. World wide coverage.
ONCE, the No 1 cycling team in the world walks away from the TDF. Worldwide coverage.
Jan Riis and Luc LeBlance are filmed standing toe to toe pointing and shouting at each other over the how best to demonstrate riders annoyance at all this adverse media coverage at the TDF.

Professional cycling on it's knees. UCI is under seige.

Aug-Dec 1998 carries nothing but accusation and counter accusation and court appearances instigated by the French authorities.
Zulle/Virenque/Bourchard and Dufaux - world champions/grand champions are all busted for doping.
Rumour and counter rumour ensue.
Wholesale migration of riders living in the south of France (Nice) to places like Girona and Switzerland because the French police have started to take an active interest in the nest of doping called Cycling.

Vuelta September 1998 : superb race, the final result in the balance practically to the final stage.
Abraham Olano wins.........but who finishes 4th after returning from cancer?
Armstrong.
A good news story. A great news story.
In all this fallout, in all this rumour/counter rumour, the UCI at that point decided that Armstrong was to be the "good news story" of a sport that was on it's knees.
Man gets up of deathbed and manages to finish 4th in the Vuelta.
Positive, worldwide media coverage for a sport that was literally in the ****.
That's when the Faustian pact was sealed.
Certain UCI members at that time, have admitted this (off the record, naturally).

When Armstrong's usefulness as a rider/publicist was deemed finished, the UCI did what it always does, it allowed the real truth to come out.
The UCI leaked the rider identity of the 6 positives from the 1999 TDF.

The UCI know and the UCI has and will tolerate doping for a variety of reasons.

Sounds good for a bar room conspiacy theory. However, in order to have this happen they would have gave JU a pass on doping and then told him he had to hold back. And other riders.
Even if LA doped, he still is the best TDF rider ever. He still destroyed every rider that ever was in the TDF in those 7 years. The only one that came close was a doped JU. And let's face it, JU was not in LA's class those 3 weeks in July.
If an average rider like you claim Armstrong to be, can win the TDF 7 times, then it should lose the title of being a tough sporting event.