Shimano pedal hair-splitting tech question

[John Morgan]

Hello rec.techies... I am one of your unruly cousins from the AMB group. I
maintain a FAQ over there about clipless mountain pedals:
http://members.cox.net/jhnmorgan/mtb/CliplessFAQ.txt

Allow me to paste a paragraph about Shimano pedals that has come into contention at my shop for your
review and opinions:

"Your standard clipless pedal design. Two spring loaded metal binding jaws clamp onto the cleat when
inserted into the mechanism. Once engaged, the cleat is held stationary by spring tension applied to
the pedal's binding jaws. To release, the rider must overcome the spring tension by twisting the
heel outward until the 10 degree release angle is reached."

The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while some of my co-workers say there is
float. I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float, but from all the research I
have done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I claim that Shimano pedals are
designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement of the foot, and any
lack of tension during this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or an improperly set
tension screw. This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."

*Defined as: Angular Float - Rotational movement the pedal allows your foot (in regards to the crank
arm) before spring tension is applied to the cleat.

If there are any other techie changes that you can suggest, I welcome them. I am about ready to do
another update for the FAQ, and now would be a good time to fix any problems in there.

-John Morgan

 

[S. Anderson]

"John Morgan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:LpPCb.2706$i55.925@fed1read06...
> The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while some of
my
> co-workers say there is float. I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float,
> but from all the research I have done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I
> claim that Shimano
pedals
> are designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement of the foot,
> and any lack of tension during this movement is
merely
> a side effect of cleat wear or an improperly set tension screw. This kind of movement I would
> simply call "slop."

I'm a little short on evidence here, but I'm fairly certain that there are at least SOME Shimano SPD
pedal systems that have some float built-in depending on what cleat you select. I know early on they
had zero float, but I think that's changed over time and some models offer more these days. I know
for certain that the Ritchey and other clone SPD systems do offer float (my Nashbar SPD's have a 0
degree cleat and an 8 degree cleat I believe).

Cheers,

Scott..

 

[Jobst Brandt]

John Morgan writes:

> Allow me to paste a paragraph about Shimano pedals that has come into contention at my shop for
> your review and opinions:

> "Your standard clipless pedal design. Two spring loaded metal binding jaws clamp onto the cleat
> when inserted into the mechanism. Once engaged, the cleat is held stationary by spring tension
> applied to the pedal's binding jaws. To release, the rider must overcome the spring tension by
> twisting the heel outward until the 10 degree release angle is reached."

> The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while some of my co-workers say there
> is float.

SPD pedals have varying amounts of float angle, the recess in the rear jaw of the attachment having
a rounded slot without a center location. Unfortunately they do not offer a pedal/cleat combination
that has NO float or I would get them. I don't care to have my foot rotate laterally while pedaling,
especially when standing, where there are natural side forces that, with float, require active
canceling.

> I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float, but from all the research I have
> done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I claim that Shimano pedals are
> designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement of the foot, and
> any lack of tension during this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or an improperly
> set tension screw. This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."

Well that isn't the case either. The spring load keeps the retention jaw closed, but it does not
hold the foot onto the pedal. That is inelastically done by the closure jaw and its hinge. The more
a cleat wears the more it conforms to the pedal so that wouldn't work the way you perceive it.
Besides, new cleats wobble from side to side as well as used ones.

Who invented this "float" **** anyway?

> *Defined as: Angular Float - Rotational movement the pedal allows your foot (in regards to the
> crank arm) before spring tension is applied to the cleat.

So what else is new!

> If there are any other techie changes that you can suggest, I welcome them. I am about ready to do
> another update for the FAQ, and now would be a good time to fix any problems in there.

You should ride SPD pedals before passing judgment. They are excellent pedals for my use, except
their float.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Matt O'Toole]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> John Morgan writes:

> > The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while some of my co-workers say
> > there is float.

> SPD pedals have varying amounts of float angle, the recess in the rear jaw of the attachment
> having a rounded slot without a center location. Unfortunately they do not offer a pedal/cleat
> combination that has NO float or I would get them. I don't care to have my foot rotate laterally
> while pedaling, especially when standing, where there are natural side forces that, with float,
> require active canceling.

IIRC, the original model 737 SPD had no float with the no-float cleats. That is, there was no
float as long as you didn't move your feet consciously. I'm riding with one generation newer than
that -- the 535. While they don't hold as firmly as the 737, they still don't float freely unless
they're worn. The newer pedals (515, etc.) seem to float no matter what, which is why I seek out
the older ones.

> > I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float, but from all the research I
> > have done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I claim that Shimano pedals
> > are designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement of the foot,
> > and any lack of tension during this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or an
> > improperly set tension screw. This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."
>
> Well that isn't the case either. The spring load keeps the retention jaw closed, but it does not
> hold the foot onto the pedal. That is inelastically done by the closure jaw and its hinge. The
> more a cleat wears the more it conforms to the pedal so that wouldn't work the way you perceive
> it. Besides, new cleats wobble from side to side as well as used ones.

I think your pedals are worn, Jobst. I imagine you ride more than I do, and I wear out a pair every
3 years or so (cleats every 6 months). Pick up a NOS pair of 535s on eBay, try 'em out, and see
what happens.

Matt O.

 

[John Morgan]

> > I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float, but from all the research I
> > have done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I claim that Shimano pedals
> > are designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement of the foot,
> > and any lack of tension during this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or an
> > improperly set tension screw. This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."
>
> Well that isn't the case either. The spring load keeps the retention jaw closed, but it does not
> hold the foot onto the pedal. That is inelastically done by the closure jaw and its hinge. The
> more a cleat wears the more it conforms to the pedal so that wouldn't work the way you perceive
> it. Besides, new cleats wobble from side to side as well as used ones.

Agreed. The binding jaw is what keeps the foot on the pedal, not the spring. When the cleat is
twisted to a certain specified release angle (10 degrees, no?) the cleat is freed from the binding
and this is what makes the binding jaw useful. However, due to the small release angle, it is
necessary to impede any twisting motion by applying force resistive to the twisting motion (aka
tension). What I'm saying is that at no point is a cleat free from tension except perhaps when it is
centered in the pedal. In other words I am claiming that Shimano has designed their pedals so that
when an engaged cleat is twisted away from center the binding jaws will apply tension to the cleat,
assuming that the pedal/cleat interface is not worn and the tension screw is tight. Is this so?

Real world experience may yield varied results (manufacturing tolerances, poor design "it's not a
bug, it's a feature!", subjective "feeling" of float, etc). If some Shimano pedals actually manage
to have some float, that's fine with me, but technically, I would like some evidence that they are
meant to (or not meant to). =)

-John Morgan

 

[John Morgan]

> IIRC, the original model 737 SPD had no float with the no-float cleats.
That
> is, there was no float as long as you didn't move your feet consciously.
I'm
> riding with one generation newer than that -- the 535. While they don't
hold as
> firmly as the 737, they still don't float freely unless they're worn. The
newer
> pedals (515, etc.) seem to float no matter what, which is why I seek out
the
> older ones.

Ok, we're making some effort. I have also heard that 737's had no float, but I still have not seen
anyone (from Shimano) claim that their other pedals are designed to deliver float. The manuals do
not mention float and the website is equally quiet on the subject. I am planning to speak to one of
the Shimano sales reps to get a more official statement, but all I have heard up until this point
has been rumor, myth, and conjecture.

One reason I am skeptical is because other pedal manufacturers (Time, Speedplay, Crank Brothers...)
all specifically treat the issue of float in their documentation. It is a feature. It is measurable.
Why does Shimano ignore it?

I'm not saying real world experience is invalid here, but I am looking for the definitive answer not
the majority of opinion.

-John Morgan

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Matt O'Toole writes:

>>> The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while some of my co-workers say
>>> there is float.

>> SPD pedals have varying amounts of float angle, the recess in the rear jaw of the attachment
>> having a rounded slot without a center location. Unfortunately they do not offer a pedal/cleat
>> combination that has NO float or I would get them. I don't care to have my foot rotate laterally
>> while pedaling, especially when standing, where there are natural side forces that, with float,
>> require active canceling.

> IIRC, the original model 737 SPD had no float with the no-float cleats. That is, there was no
> float as long as you didn't move your feet consciously. I'm riding with one generation newer than
> that -- the 535. While they don't hold as firmly as the 737, they still don't float freely unless
> they're worn. The newer pedals (515, etc.) seem to float no matter what, which is why I seek out
> the older ones.

>>> I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float, but from all the research I
>>> have done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I claim that Shimano pedals
>>> are designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement of the foot,
>>> and any lack of tension during this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or an
>>> improperly set tension screw. This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."

>> Well that isn't the case either. The spring load keeps the retention jaw closed, but it does not
>> hold the foot onto the pedal. That is inelastically done by the closure jaw and its hinge. The
>> more a cleat wears the more it conforms to the pedal so that wouldn't work the way you perceive
>> it. Besides, new cleats wobble from side to side as well as used ones.

> I think your pedals are worn, Jobst. I imagine you ride more than I do, and I wear out a pair
> every 3 years or so (cleats every 6 months). Pick up a NOS pair of 535s on eBay, try 'em out, and
> see what happens.

I assure you mine are not worn and that I am using new cleats of the kind I first used with early
535 pedals that had a narrow notch in the holding clamp. These have a broad radius that wobbles all
over the place to my chagrin. I have looked at all the pedals Shimano offered today and see none
that have a narrow notch to arrest lateral motion.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Jobst Brandt]

John Morgan writes:

>>> I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float, but from all the research I
>>> have done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I claim that Shimano pedals
>>> are designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement of the foot,
>>> and any lack of tension during this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or an
>>> improperly set tension screw. This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."

>> Well that isn't the case either. The spring load keeps the retention jaw closed, but it does not
>> hold the foot onto the pedal. That is inelastically done by the closure jaw and its hinge. The
>> more a cleat wears the more it conforms to the pedal so that wouldn't work the way you perceive
>> it. Besides, new cleats wobble from side to side as well as used ones.

> Agreed. The binding jaw is what keeps the foot on the pedal, not the spring. When the cleat is
> twisted to a certain specified release angle (10 degrees, no?) the cleat is freed from the
> binding and this is what makes the binding jaw useful. However, due to the small release angle,
> it is necessary to impede any twisting motion by applying force resistive to the twisting motion
> (aka tension). What I'm saying is that at no point is a cleat free from tension except perhaps
> when it is centered in the pedal. In other words I am claiming that Shimano has designed their
> pedals so that when an engaged cleat is twisted away from center the binding jaws will apply
> tension to the cleat, assuming that the pedal/cleat interface is not worn and the tension screw
> is tight. Is this so?

I take it you are hypothesizing about all this. Why not try riding on them? I'm sure you have a
friend who will let you ride them with their shoes so you can get this first hand. The rotation
angle is about +-10 to 15 degrees with no perceptible resistance. If you were to do this manually,
without a foot in the shoe, you could feel frictional drag but this is minimal especially if the
cleat is lubricated as it should be to assure reliable release when you want to get out. A wet and
muddy cleat is good enough lubrication, but when that dries out it gets a bit sticky at times.

> Real world experience may yield varied results (manufacturing tolerances, poor design "it's not a
> bug, it's a feature!", subjective "feeling" of float, etc). If some Shimano pedals actually manage
> to have some float, that's fine with me, but technically, I would like some evidence that they are
> meant to (or not meant to).

That's not fine with me. I use them because they have recessed cleats and the shoes, TO93's, make
good everyday desk job shoes for the commuter. They can be worn in hotels when touring. I don't take
pleasure in walking like a duck, as we did in the old days of straps, clips and exposed cleats. It
seems this is a badge of courage for some riders who make a conspicuous spectacle of their clumsy
shoes when they dismount.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Jobst Brandt]

John Morgan <[email protected]> writes:

>> IIRC, the original model 737 SPD had no float with the no-float cleats. That is, there was no
>> float as long as you didn't move your feet consciously. I'm riding with one generation newer than
>> that -- the 535. While they don't hold as firmly as the 737, they still don't float freely unless
>> they're worn. The newer pedals (515, etc.) seem to float no matter what, which is why I seek out
>> the older ones.

> Ok, we're making some effort. I have also heard that 737's had no float, but I still have not seen
> anyone (from Shimano) claim that their other pedals are designed to deliver float. The manuals do
> not mention float and the website is equally quiet on the subject. I am planning to speak to one
> of the Shimano sales reps to get a more official statement, but all I have heard up until this
> point has been rumor, myth, and conjecture.

> One reason I am skeptical is because other pedal manufacturers (Time, Speedplay, Crank
> Brothers...) all specifically treat the issue of float in their documentation. It is a feature. It
> is measurable. Why does Shimano ignore it?

> I'm not saying real world experience is invalid here, but I am looking for the definitive answer
> not the majority of opinion.

I take it you think I am lying.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[John Morgan]

> > Agreed. The binding jaw is what keeps the foot on the pedal, not the spring. When the cleat is
> > twisted to a certain specified release angle (10 degrees, no?) the cleat is freed from the
binding
> > and this is what makes the binding jaw useful. However, due to
the
> > small release angle, it is necessary to impede any twisting motion by applying force resistive
> > to the twisting motion (aka tension). What I'm saying is that at no point is a cleat free from
> > tension except perhaps when it is centered in the pedal. In other words I am claiming that
> > Shimano has designed their pedals so that when an engaged cleat is twisted away from center the
> > binding jaws will apply tension to the cleat, assuming that the pedal/cleat
interface
> > is not worn and the tension screw is tight. Is this so?

> I take it you are hypothesizing about all this.

Yes. Trying to figure out what Shimano's stance is on float in their mountain pedals. Since I have
seen no hard evidence that there is such a thing, I come to this newsgroup to see if proof exists
that Shimano pedals have float built in as a feature. Thanks, Jobst for your responses.

Based on what I've read of Shimano's literature and that of other pedal manufacturers, I have given
my best hypothesis. Can anyone disprove it? Can anyone support it? Am I wasting my energy thinking
about it, as Jobst implies?

-John Morgan

 

[John Morgan]

> > I'm not saying real world experience is invalid here, but I am looking for the definitive answer
> > not the majority of opinion.

> I take it you think I am lying.

No. You gave me a very practical response and a Shimano endorsement. I suppose I'm looking for the
impractical one.

-John Morgan

 

[Zog The Undenia]

John Morgan wrote:

> Hello rec.techies... I am one of your unruly cousins from the AMB group. I maintain a FAQ over
> there about clipless mountain pedals: http://members.cox.net/jhnmorgan/mtb/CliplessFAQ.txt
>
> Allow me to paste a paragraph about Shimano pedals that has come into contention at my shop for
> your review and opinions:
>
> "Your standard clipless pedal design. Two spring loaded metal binding jaws clamp onto the cleat
> when inserted into the mechanism. Once engaged, the cleat is held stationary by spring tension
> applied to the pedal's binding jaws. To release, the rider must overcome the spring tension by
> twisting the heel outward until the 10 degree release angle is reached."
>
> The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while some of my co-workers say there
> is float. I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float, but from all the
> research I have done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I claim that
> Shimano pedals are designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement
> of the foot, and any lack of tension during this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or
> an improperly set tension screw. This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."
>
>
> *Defined as: Angular Float - Rotational movement the pedal allows your foot (in regards to the
> crank arm) before spring tension is applied to the cleat.

Assuming we're taking about standard mountain bike SPDs here, they do have some rotational (angular)
float but not lateral float. There is a resisting spring tension but it's still perfectly possible
to waggle a foot without approaching the release point. The old Time road pedals (and maybe the new
ones - I haven't tried them yet) had both types of float and in this case there is no real
rotational spring tension until close to the release point.

I don't know whether the silver "multirelease" cleats have any more float than the black cleats.

SPDs don't damage my knees, which is the main thing

 

[Carl Fogel]

"John Morgan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<JMUCb.2869$i55.674@fed1read06>...
> > > Agreed. The binding jaw is what keeps the foot on the pedal, not the spring. When the cleat is
> > > twisted to a certain specified release angle (10 degrees, no?) the cleat is freed from the
> binding
> > > and this is what makes the binding jaw useful. However, due to
> the
> > > small release angle, it is necessary to impede any twisting motion by applying force resistive
> > > to the twisting motion (aka tension). What I'm saying is that at no point is a cleat free from
> > > tension except perhaps when it is centered in the pedal. In other words I am claiming that
> > > Shimano has designed their pedals so that when an engaged cleat is twisted away from center
> > > the binding jaws will apply tension to the cleat, assuming that the pedal/cleat
> interface
> > > is not worn and the tension screw is tight. Is this so?
>
> > I take it you are hypothesizing about all this.
>
> Yes. Trying to figure out what Shimano's stance is on float in their mountain pedals. Since I have
> seen no hard evidence that there is such a thing, I come to this newsgroup to see if proof exists
> that Shimano pedals have float built in as a feature. Thanks, Jobst for your responses.
>
> Based on what I've read of Shimano's literature and that of other pedal manufacturers, I have
> given my best hypothesis. Can anyone disprove it? Can anyone support it? Am I wasting my energy
> thinking about it, as Jobst implies?
>
> -John Morgan

Dear John,

Take heart. Keep in mind that Jobst wastes a lot of time telling people that they are wasting their
time (or worse), just as I waste time blathering like this. Both he and I (and a host of other
posters) could stand to imitate Sheldon Brown's admirable combination of style and content.

Luckily, your pedals don't care what anyone thinks about them and will doggedly continue to do
whatever they do, no matter whose theory is correct.

For about 5,000 miles per year, I press $12 shoes from WalMart against toothed pedals suitable for
children, so I follow arguments like this about cleats with all the interest of a basset hound
listening to the greyhounds discussing how to clip their claws before races.

Your theory may be utterly wrong, but it's unlikely to hurt you, either through your shoes or
through your polite, curious attitude.

You seem to be in no danger of bristling at imagined insults, whereas Jobst can't help demanding
whether people are calling him a liar over the amount of wiggle in a complex mechanism, and I can't
help sticking my nose in like this.

Merry Christmas,

Carl Fogel

 

[Per Elmsäter]

John Morgan wrote:
> Hello rec.techies... I am one of your unruly cousins from the AMB group. I maintain a FAQ over
> there about clipless mountain pedals: http://members.cox.net/jhnmorgan/mtb/CliplessFAQ.txt
>
> Allow me to paste a paragraph about Shimano pedals that has come into contention at my shop for
> your review and opinions:
>
> "Your standard clipless pedal design. Two spring loaded metal binding jaws clamp onto the cleat
> when inserted into the mechanism. Once engaged, the cleat is held stationary by spring tension
> applied to the pedal's binding jaws. To release, the rider must overcome the spring tension by
> twisting the heel outward until the 10 degree release angle is reached."
>
> The contention is that I say Shimano pedals have no float*, while some of my co-workers say there
> is float. I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float, but from all the
> research I have done, there is no evidence of this being true. In other words, I claim that
> Shimano pedals are designed to deliver spring tension on the cleat during any rotational movement
> of the foot, and any lack of tension during this movement is merely a side effect of cleat wear or
> an improperly set tension screw. This kind of movement I would simply call "slop."
>
>
> *Defined as: Angular Float - Rotational movement the pedal allows your foot (in regards to the
> crank arm) before spring tension is applied to the cleat.
>
> If there are any other techie changes that you can suggest, I welcome them. I am about ready to do
> another update for the FAQ, and now would be a good time to fix any problems in there.
>
> -John Morgan

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the different cleats that Shimano sells with their pedals. As far
as I understand the float is built into the cleat. SM-SH50 no float SM-SH51 float SM-SH55 float and
multi release.

I've never tried the SH50 so I can't say there is no float as they promise, but I've tried the other
two and it is a very big difference on the same pedal.

Just as recent as earlier today I was checking out some Shimano pedals on the web. The 520 and the
540 was spec'd to have 4 degrees of float. However they were also bundled with the SH51 cleats. All
the other Shimano SPD pedals were also bundled with the SH51 cleat but were not spec'd to have any
float. I can't really figure this out to be honest, but I'm happy with my SH51 cleats on all my SPD
pedals, since I do wan't the float. I tried the SH55 cleat once but it scared me since I couldn't
really feel if my pedals were attached or not. URL://http://www.cyclecomponents.com/cgi-
bin/ak_secs.cgi?funk=visa_artikel&a rtgrp=ped&artnr=SHPDM540&limit=000&extra=000&varumarke=000&btg=0&visa=1-
30Be skr

It's a Swedish site but you can make out the line about 4 degree float and the cleat SH51

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

 

[J. Matt]

"John Morgan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:

> "Your standard clipless pedal design. Two spring loaded metal binding jaws clamp onto the cleat
> when inserted into the mechanism.

My last SPD clipless pedals, 747s, had one spring-loaded metal binding jaw in the back and a fixed
seating bracket in the front.

Time ATACs have front and back spring mechanisms, as do the Crank Bros. offerings. Interestingly
enough, the new ATACs are no longer "Automatic Tension Adjusting," as they now have a manual tension
adjusting screw.

Also, the new ATACs feature tiny braze-on-ish type nubs on the underside of the retention spring
preventing lateral movement of the cleat. This lateral movement, (separate from float) has been one
of the two weaknesses in the ATAC pedals, the other being play in the bearings/bushings straight out
of the box.

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:41:04 +0000, J. Matt wrote:

> Also, the new ATACs feature tiny braze-on-ish type nubs on the underside of the retention spring
> preventing lateral movement of the cleat. This lateral movement, (separate from float) has been
> one of the two weaknesses in the ATAC pedals, the other being play in the bearings/bushings
> straight out of the box.

I thought the lateral movement of the ATACs was supposed to be a selling point.

But IMO the original poster has a point. SPD float did not seem to me to be real float, in that
there was still some spring action centering the foot. Free float is, IMO, important to getting a
comfortable pedal. That is why I have gone to Speedplay Frogs.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The _`\(,_ | common welfare was my
business; charity, mercy, forbearance, (_)/ (_) | and benevolence, were, all, my business. The
dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!" --
Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Per Elms writes:

> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the different cleats that Shimano sells with their pedals. As
> far as I understand the float is built into the cleat.

> SM-SH50 no float SM-SH51 float SM-SH55 float and multi release.

> I've never tried the SH50 so I can't say there is no float as they promise, but I've tried the
> other two and it is a very big difference on the same pedal.

I have been using SM-SH55 and -SH51 cleats with 535 Pedals and they have float as I reported. In
contrast, 525 pedals have no float with SM-SH50 and SM-SH51 cleats because the pedal has a V-shaped
slot in the retention clamp. I have not tried the 55 multi release or the 737 pedal.

> Just as recent as earlier today I was checking out some Shimano pedals on the web. The 520 and the
> 540 was spec'd to have 4 degrees of float. However they were also bundled with the SH51 cleats.
> All the other Shimano SPD pedals were also bundled with the SH51 cleat but were not spec'd to have
> any float.

> I can't really figure this out to be honest, but I'm happy with my SH51 cleats on all my SPD
> pedals, since I want float. I tried the SH55 cleat once but it scared me since I couldn't really
> feel if my pedals were attached or not.

That sounds like problems I don't need.

http://tinyurl.com/z9pn

> It's a Swedish site but you can make out the line about 4 degree float and the cleat SH51

What you can make out on the 540 pedal in the picture, is that the retention clamp has a broad and
radiused recess that allows float regardless of cleat. In contrast, the 525 Pedal clamp has a V-
shape and gives no float. I just got a pair of these and am glad that there still are float free
pedals. I had lost faith in these guys up to now having looked at their list of pedals under Deore
XTR and LX groups that show only pedals with lots of float:

http://www.shimano-europe.com/cycling/index.phtml

Click "Mountain Bike", "Catalog Selection", "LX" or whatever you want to see and then scroll to the
bottom of the component menu for pedals.

None of these are float free.

959, 647new, 540, 545, 534, 520new, 515.

I didn't find the old 520 anywhere.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Carl Fogel]

[email protected] (Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> John-<< I realize it is a common idea to think Shimano pedals have float,
> >><BR><BR>
>
> I put some in the toilet, they didn't float...
>
> C'mon, it's still DARK at 7 AM, it's winter!!! It's snowin'...yhk!!!
>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Dear Peter,

Sixty-six degrees Sunday. Rode in my shorts at half-past noon. My, what a difference a hundred
miles makes!

Carl Fogel Pueblo, CO 81004

 

[Matt O'Toole]

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> But IMO the original poster has a point. SPD float did not seem to me to be real float, in that
> there was still some spring action centering the foot.

Yes. And depending on the particular Shimano pedal and cleat, that centering force varies. However,
it's never as "locked in" as old-fashioned cleats.

> Free float is, IMO, important to getting a comfortable pedal. That is why I have gone to
> Speedplay Frogs.

It's important *to you.* I like to be held firmly but not completely locked in, and apparently Jobst
would prefer to be more locked in.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the different cleats that Shimano sells with their pedals. As
> far as I understand the float is built into the cleat. SM-SH50 no float SM-SH51 float SM-SH55
> float and multi release.

> I've never tried the SH50 so I can't say there is no float as they promise, but I've tried the
> other two and it is a very big difference on the same pedal.

Yes. The SH50 feels more locked on center, but it's still not completely solid. SH50 are really
hard to find nowadays. They came with the original 737. Most people did not like the SH50 at all,
and immediately bought one of the others. Some of us thought this was a plot by Shimano to make an
extra $25. It was probably just a miscalculation -- they thought most of the buyers would prefer
the feel of old-fashioned road cleats, but instead they were mostly mountain bikers accustomed to
tennis shoes.

> Just as recent as earlier today I was checking out some Shimano pedals on the web. The 520 and the
> 540 was spec'd to have 4 degrees of float. However they were also bundled with the SH51 cleats.
> All the other Shimano SPD pedals were also bundled with the SH51 cleat but were not spec'd to have
> any float.

> I can't really figure this out to be honest, but I'm happy with my SH51 cleats on all my SPD
> pedals, since I do wan't the float. I tried the SH55 cleat once but it scared me since I couldn't
> really feel if my pedals were attached or not.

I can't figure it all out completely either, but I feel the same way about the SH55 cleats. However,
most people seem to prefer these, so there are always plenty of the others around for cheap. Also,
whatever the spec, or the cleat, the newer pedals definately have more float, or even slop, so I
don't like them. So as I mentioned, I seek out the older ones.

Matt O.

 

[Jobst Brandt]

John Morgan writes:

>>> I'm not saying real world experience is invalid here, but I am looking for the definitive answer
>>> not the majority of opinion.

>> I take it you think I am lying.

> No. You gave me a very practical response and a Shimano endorsement. I suppose I'm looking for the
> impractical one.

I often wonder whether readers notice that my responses generally include reasons for my point of
view and contain examples that they can test (as in "the scientific method"). I get pitted against
other responses that boldly state opinions with no supporting evidence or reason why one should
believe them. That may be why so many people believe the political spin doctors who use implication
as their main substance.

This is, after all, wreck.bike.tech!

Jobst Brandt [email protected]