The Bikesmith, Seattle, shutting down

[Carl Fogel]

[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

[snip]

> . . . I would not risk my safety on such a beast. And I actually know a small amount about the
> subject. Someone who doesn't know anything would be in blissful ignorance until the wheel(s)
> came off.
>

[snip]

> In Corvallis, Oregon, some of the streets have shrubs that grow right up to the fog line. While I
> never ran into the shrubberies for any reason, I could see it happening.
>

[snip]

> And for commuting, when there are cars around, equipment failure could have dire consequences.

[snip]

> But I would never recommend that someone take their life into their hands on a commute with a
> bicycle that may or may not be assembled adequately. Saving $50 dollars seems really stupid.

[snip]

> Sincerely,
>
> R.F. Jones

Dear R.F.,

Your world sounds dreadfully dangerous.

Where do you bury all these blissfully ignorant, stupid people who take their lives into their hands
by riding bicycles not assembled in local bikes shops?

Perhaps under those terrifying shrubs that you've never hit, the ones that grow right up to
the fog line?

Curiously,

Carl Fogel

 

[A Muzi]

> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 01:02:21 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>I'm OK with the guy who will work for less. (sometimes it is I!) Perhaps he is learning his trade.
>>Perhaps it's just a second job while he saves for a house. If your skills/speed/convenience/added
>>value are not worth more to your customer, perhaps it isn't _his_ rate that's out of line!

jeffbonny wrote:
> My point is that with the experience I have I CAN do a better job in less time in the bike shop or
> anywhere else. A lot of what I do now has the very real and immediate potential to kill people if
> not done right. While this may somewhat preclude an accurate comparison to fixing or selling a
> bike it is true that someone who knows his business to the point of fanaticism is of value to
> those who share his ethic for a job done well and even those who don't when he saves them money by
> a) not selling **** or the wrong thing and b) not walking away from a job not done well.
>
> Here is a visual example of my biz and what happens when by someone who may be "Perhaps...
> learning his trade" is allowed to do a job he's not experienced enough to do well.
> http://www.roadie.net/vegastruss.htm This was caused by a "customer" to whom the
> "skills/speed/convenience/added value" of hiring a competent rigger were not "worth more". If this
> guy were running a bike shop he'd be the guy who wouldn't spring to hire a good wheel builder but
> would happily charge the going rate to the customer for a handbuilt wheel.
>
> A major point of my argument is that the perception of savings is not always the way it works out
> to be in the long run.

(am)>>Markets often accommodate a wide range of prices to good
>>effect because there are other factors, as you note.

(jb)> Yep, public ignorance not the least of them.
> I agree that not everyone needs a good bike shop all the time but it's the ***** not have one when
> you do and if it means paying a buck more for brake pads I think it's worth it.

Great example. I think you said it better than I. Price is only one of many factors!

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Jeffbonny]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:24:32 -0800, gwhite <gwhite@hocuspocus_ti.com>
wrote:

snip

>People need to be responsible for themselves. People need the freedom to learn their own lessons.
>That is the way the world works. If they get "closed" into buying "stuff" they didn't need, well
>tough ****. Shielding people from the consequences of their own choices breeds defective culture.

I agree however it is certainly not in a large chain store or MO's interest to educate people how to
best exercise those freedoms. I believe that corporate culture has limited freedom through clever
manipulation (aka advertizing). Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with advertizing but
when you have the funds to remain constantly in the public's face you can sell 'em anything and
that's a fact. MacDonanald's ain't sold all them billions of burgers 'cause they're good. We the
public have increasingly traded quality for convenience and I just hate seeing this happen in to
bike shops. I'm not really arguing right or wrong, should or should't I'm just saying it makes me
sad to see. God knows if I had any real answers I'd still be in business.

snip

>With you as a consumer of that good, I have no problem with your choice there. Just don't try to
>say others have an obligation to purchase what you purchase and where you purchase it.

Never said that, never will.

jeffb

 

[A Muzi]

>>A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>... [snip]
[gasoline price analogy]

David Kerber wrote:
> Well, people driving an Excursion
[snip] [the same analogy] When I had my Escort Diesel (45 mpg commuting to
> work, 56-58 on the highway), I felt like you do.

And tying this up more explicitly, some large number of Val's customers were no longer willing to
seek him out in the Seattle market. Their opinion and his varied.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Curtis L . Russ]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 06:57:21 GMT, jeffbonny <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with advertizing but when you have the funds to remain
>constantly in the public's face you can sell 'em anything and that's a fact. MacDonanald's ain't
>sold all them billions of burgers 'cause they're good.

And they never tried to. They sold a consistent product and until about 10 years ago, they managed
to do that. People went to a McDonalds not to have an exceptional experience, but to avoid a
negative one. Now that THAT is no longer certain at a McDonalds, they have been through a series of
drops in same-store sales.

One of the reasons that people end up in Walmarts to buy a bike is that too many 'quality' bike
shops were negative experiences. Psuedo racers looked down their noses at the person trying to
purchase a 'regular' bike and treated them like dirt. Particularly stupid dirt.

The bike shop that provides new bicyclists with a good experience, that answers the questions they
ask rather than the ones that the 'sales'person wants them to ask, that sells have as well as, say,
Einstein Bagels, is rare. I've seen potential customers ignored or talked down to, or humiliated
because they weren't sure what to ask for.

And practically every bike shop owner on the Internet that I've heard speak, except Zach, seems to
have a negative attitude about their own customers. Maybe I'm forgetting someone that actually
likes their customers as people, but the ones I remember don't encourage me to look up ther shops
to do business.

I watched bike shops where, by the interaction on the floor with about half the customers, the only
presumption to make is that the shop does not want the customers' money. Or the customers.

There was an earlier comment about bike shop owners finding themselves doing the stuff they didn't
want to do. How the hell is that different from any other business? Marketing, sales, payroll taxes
and paying bills is a part of almost every business. Either you like the business
- and the customers - enough to do the rest of the stuff and stay in business, or you don't and you
go work for someone else. Same in the insurance business, the restaurant business, the beer pub
business and almost every other business. Nothing special about bikes.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...

 

[Ian G Batten]

In article <[email protected]>,
jeffbonny <[email protected]> wrote:
> interest to educate people how to best exercise those freedoms. I believe that corporate culture
> has limited freedom through clever manipulation (aka advertizing). Not that there is necessarily
> anything

This is a standard Usenet meme. ``The general population are fools who are manipulated by marketing,
but I am much cleverer than that and am immune to it.'' Notice how many people claim to ignore
adverts, how few say they are influenced by them.

> fact. MacDonanald's ain't sold all them billions of burgers 'cause they're good.

And to judge from their desperate rebranding exercises and reductions in number of outlets, their
advertising isn't working too well either.

> We the public have increasingly traded quality for convenience

As Stephen Bayley points out, today you can have for pence (cents) a disposable razor and a
disposable pen which function better than anything available to Louis XIV. When is the golden age
for the consumer you are claiming existed?

ian

 

[Jeffbonny]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 14:42:20 +0000 (UTC), Ian G Batten
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, jeffbonny
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> interest to educate people how to best exercise those freedoms. I believe that corporate culture
>> has limited freedom through clever manipulation (aka advertizing). Not that there is necessarily
>> anything
>
>This is a standard Usenet meme. ``The general population are fools who are manipulated by
>marketing, but I am much cleverer than that and am immune to it.'' Notice how many people claim to
>ignore adverts, how few say they are influenced by them.

And you sell me short on what? Statistics? I haven't owned a TV for about fifteen years, I don't
read a newspaper very often. and now that I can get uninterrupted jazz via the web I don't even
listen to the radio much. And y'know what? I don't claim that this makes me immune to advertizing
because it doesn't. So **** up a rope.

>> fact. MacDonanald's ain't sold all them billions of burgers 'cause they're good.
>
>And to judge from their desperate rebranding exercises and reductions in number of outlets, their
>advertising isn't working too well either.

Finally. **** seen for being ****.

>> We the public have increasingly traded quality for convenience
>
>As Stephen Bayley points out, today you can have for pence (cents) a disposable razor and a
>disposable pen which function better than anything available to Louis XIV. When is the golden age
>for the consumer you are claiming existed?

Go take a logic course pal, I never said this and truth be known although I do like steel quill pens
you'll pry my Teflon coated twin razor outta my cold, dead hand. I'm just saying for the last time
I'm bummed out to be seeing small shops run by bike fanatics being replaced by retailers for whom
the almighty buck (pound sterling) is the ONLY motivation. I ride for more reasons than simply to
get a cheap bike and appreciate those who sell them for reasons other than JUST financial. What the
hell is so hard to grasp here? You can shop wherever you want and it's fine with me. Really.

jeffb

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Ian G Batten" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> This is a standard Usenet meme. ``The general population are fools who are manipulated by
> marketing, but I am much cleverer than that and am immune to it.'' Notice how many people claim to
> ignore adverts, how few say they are influenced by them.

Dumbass -

Much of advertising is intended to be subliminal.

"When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other"

- Eric Hoffer

 

[Jonesy]

[email protected] (Carl Fogel) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

[snip obviously worthless musings]

>
> Dear R.F.,
>
> Your world sounds dreadfully dangerous.

Wow. Got hyperbole?

"My world" carries real risks which I choose to minimize. I would hope that rational adults would
think likewise.

Were you, by chance, an earnest, amateur Shakespearian actor? Your "ham"-fisted attempts at
over-dramatization leads me to this imagination of you. Well, that and your sonnets to r.b.t
regular-posters.

In any case, I'm curious as to why you would recommend a *Mart bike over a regular low-cost LBS
offering. Other than the small initial cost difference. Try and keep your over-blown rhetoric in
check, if you choose to reply.

Most sincerely,

R.F. Jones

 

[Gwhite]

jeffbonny wrote:
>

> We the public have increasingly traded quality for convenience and I just hate seeing this happen
> in to bike shops.

The highest quality bike I've ever owned was the one most recently purchased.

"Convenience" has an opportunity cost just like anything else.

 

[Gwhite]

A Muzi wrote:
>

> Great example. I think you said it better than I. Price is only one of many factors!

I have a lot of respect for you because you rely on your own wits to be successful. However, we
could probably mince words on "Price is only one of many factors."

Since paying the price is the action which stamps the deal closed, it is legally "everything." The
mincing is considering what "everything" is for the price paid. For example, I might pay 50¢ for a
wink from a hot woman. A wink from you might send me riding away very fast. More seriously, the "raw
material" of the deal could be the same from different vendors, but certain value-adds from one of
the vendors will make apparent identical deals non-identical for those who can benefit from the value-
adds. The task of the vendor is to make the value-add clear to potential customers so they can see
that the "same price" does not necessarily mean equivalent "product." I have in mind things such as
smiling friendly help, "free" bike fittings, better "free" advice, "liberal" return/exchange
policies, and so on.

I presume that given "equal price," most buyers will take the value-add sale if they are clear
on the facts. Perhaps I am too optimistic. If the non-value-add price is lower than the value-
add price then some buyers are likely to say they don't "need" the value-add. How many times has
that happened?

 

[Zoot Katz]

Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:45:52 GMT,
<[email protected]>,
jeffbonny <[email protected]> wrote:

>I ride for more reasons than simply to get a cheap bike and appreciate those who sell them for
>reasons other than JUST financial. What the hell is so hard to grasp here?

Art must have price tag affixed to it before it's valued by these soulless number crunchers. Shun
them lest their affliction becomes contagious.
--
zk

 

[Rick Onanian]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 01:02:21 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Even here on RBT there are some who would rather diddle with a piece of allthread than tip the nice
>mechanic after she pressed the head cups properly.

Tangentially...what is a proper tip schedule for bike service?
--
Rick Onanian

 

[David Reuteler]

In rec.bicycles.tech Rick Onanian <[email protected]> wrote:
: Tangentially...what is a proper tip schedule for bike service?

from what i can tell it starts at a sixer of miller/budweiser and goes up to 2 or more sixers of
guinness or some local microbrew for special services or xmas or new year's.

it does always seem to be in beer, tho.
--
david reuteler [email protected]

 

[Avgrin]

> Wal-Mart doesn't exterminate entire small-town economies, people do. If you don't like the way Wal-
> Mart throws its economic weight around, write your Congress-person, or vote for a Congress-person
> that will do something about it. I happen to think that Wal-Mart and other super-chains (maybe
> includes Performance/Nashbar in our own little world) function as a monopolies and need to be
> regulated in some way. It's interesting to consider that part of our "low" inflation rate comes
> from prices being held down by paying minumum wage to sales staff, killing off small business by
> the thousands, and destroying the cultural diversity of small towns.
>
> A few simple things, such as requiring corporations like Wal-Mart to offer health care to everyone
> including part time help, raising the minimum wage to a living wage and doing a better job of
> protecting labor's right to organize might force them to compete on more equal terms. Maybe a
> corporation with the monopolistic buying power of a Wal-Mart should not be allowed to undersell
> the established prices in communities it opens stores in.
>
> Or we can just sit around and ***** about it. One thing that ain't gonna work is to complain about
> people chasing the good deals.
>
> JP

JP, According to your logic bicycles, car, airplanes, computers, etc. should had been regulated out
existence, because they killed such a trades as foot messenger, horse and buggy, typewriters, etc.
You are talking about workers right to unionize and strike, what if capitalists were to do so. Lets
for a moment assume that everyone with sufficient funds to live on will close one's business and
fire all the workers. What will the workers do? ... Perhaps create another Soviet Union. It simply
didn't work. The solution to small shops is simple they need offer VALUE Added Services that
consumers need and are willing to pay for. If they can't, they should become a casualty of progress
just like a horse and buggy for transportation and a typewriter for as a writing instrument.

Victor

 

[Carl Fogel]

[email protected] (Jonesy) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Carl Fogel) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
> [snip obviously worthless musings]
>
> >
> > Dear R.F.,
> >
> > Your world sounds dreadfully dangerous.
>
> Wow. Got hyperbole?
>
> "My world" carries real risks which I choose to minimize. I would hope that rational adults would
> think likewise.
>
> Were you, by chance, an earnest, amateur Shakespearian actor? Your "ham"-fisted attempts at over-
> dramatization leads me to this imagination of you. Well, that and your sonnets to r.b.t regular-
> posters.
>
> In any case, I'm curious as to why you would recommend a *Mart bike over a regular low-cost LBS
> offering. Other than the small initial cost difference. Try and keep your over-blown rhetoric in
> check, if you choose to reply.
>
> Most sincerely,
>
> R.F. Jones

Dear R.F.

I'm puzzled.

What you snipped as "obviously worthless musings" from my post were merely what you had posted. (But
possibly you meant to put the snip elsewhere?)

Even the part of my reply that you silently omitted about "Where do you bury all these blissfully
ignorant, stupid people" was just repeating without quotation marks what you had just called people--
"blissfully ignorant" and "stupid."

Whose over-blown rhetoric are we trying to keep in check?

Do you really fear that a quick-release skewer mounted on the wrong side exposes a fellow commuting
four miles to "dire consequences" because "shrubberies" that you have "have never run into" might
somehow open it?

Incidentally, wouldn't you expect a commuter on pavement on an inexpensive bicycle to crash if he
hit the brush hard enough to do that, whether the quick release opened or not?

Are you serious that these "stupid" riders who saved money are taking "their life into their hands
on a commute with a bicycle that may or may not be assembled properly"?

If so, how many people would you say are killed every year while commuting on bicycles improperly
assembled, either by local bike shops or chain stores?

That is, if it's as stupid and dire and risky as you explicitly say it is to ride bicycles not
assembled in local bike shops, shouldn't there actually be some striking consequences?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Eric M]

In article <[email protected]>,
Carl Fogel <[email protected]> wrote:
>Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<YOURhoward-
>[email protected]>...
>>
>> What do the contemporary trials bikes use (Gas-Gas, Beta, etc)? I can't tell from the pics,
>> but it looks like they hang the engines and wrap a plate under it now. I'd assume no one puts
>> the clutch lever underneath like that anymore.
>
>I haven't paid any real attention to modern trials machines, but I expect that you're right. Using
>the transmission as the lower frame saves weight, increases ground clearance, and lowers the
>center of mass.

On the new bikes (since the late 70s or so) the skid plate is a somewhat stressed part of the frame.
On the old bikes if the skid plate was not substantial the frame tubes eventually got smashed in. A
skid plate substantial enough to prevent that was also good enough to entirely replace the lower
frame cradle. This lets the designer move the engine down a little bit without reducing ground
clearance. That lowers CG which makes low speed balance easier.

My 76 Montesa 348 still has the frame tubes (but the clutch lever is on top of the engine), my '76
Yamaha 250D has a skid plate that replaces the lower frame tubes but still has the clutch lever
under the engine.

Modern trials bikes (last 10 years) all have hydraulic clutches. The slave cylinder is either a
tiny thing next to the countershaft sprocket or a tiny thing on top of the gearbox in the case of
the Scorpa.

>(Just how out of touch I am with modern machines was emphasized last summer when my ancient Honda
>turned out to be older than the fellow who curiously asked what I was riding. "A Honda-saurus," his
>father explained before I could explain.)

You should try a ride on a modern bike. They're a lot of fun.

>Using the transmission as a frame member was not, however, a new idea. Miller's famous GOV 132
>Ariel 500cc did it (possibly a Miller modification).

It was his mod. He did the same on some of the Hondas he competed on. I beleive he also sold similar
design frame kits for Ariels, Bultacos and Hondas (and probably others as well).

Eric

 

[Claire Petersky]

"Rick Onanian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 01:02:21 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Even here on RBT there are some who would rather diddle with a piece of allthread than tip the
> >nice mechanic after she pressed the head cups properly.
>
> Tangentially...what is a proper tip schedule for bike service?

I have now settled on plates of fresh baked goods, administered several times a year, as well as
Camp Fire candies.

Incidentally, would anyone like to buy a box of Camp Fire candies? http://www.campfire-
usa.org/product/candy.htm Just let me know!

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com

Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm

Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky
My bookshelf: http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Cpetersky

"To forgive is to set the prisoner free and then discover the prisoner
was you."

 

[Penny S]

Claire Petersky wrote:
> "Rick Onanian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 01:02:21 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Even here on RBT there are some who would rather diddle with a piece of allthread than tip the
>>> nice mechanic after she pressed the head cups properly.
>>
>> Tangentially...what is a proper tip schedule for bike service?
>
> I have now settled on plates of fresh baked goods, administered several times a year, as well as
> Camp Fire candies.

I take the box of goodies from the really good bakery in town route, myself.

Penny S

 

[Pete]

"Carl Fogel" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Are you serious that these "stupid" riders who saved money are taking "their life into their hands
> on a commute with a bicycle that may or may not be assembled properly"?
>
> If so, how many people would you say are killed every year while commuting on bicycles improperly
> assembled, either by local bike shops or chain stores?
>
> That is, if it's as stupid and dire and risky as you explicitly say it is to ride bicycles not
> assembled in local bike shops, shouldn't there actually be some striking consequences?
>

It's not a matter of people being killed, or 'striking consequences', but rather a slow degradation
of pleasure.

A cheap bike, such as many of the bikes found in the dept stores, will offer worse braking, worse
shifting, and a 'heavier' ride. Right out of the box. Wait a few weeks, and the braking/shifting
gets worse. Condensation/rust in the cables, loose tolerances, a loose nut here and there all lead
to "WTF is wrong with this thing?!?" Without significantly more maintenance, it degrades quickly.
The owner gets to a state of not wanting to deal with the hassle of riding, because the 'bike' is
fighting him at every squeak of the pedal.

And so it sits in the garage. Maybe eventually left in a garage sale.

Now, if you want to talk about the raw safety aspect, look at the stamped steel brake arrms, and
chromed or painted rims in the rain. Or the forks assembled backwards. Or loose headset adjustment.
Or brake levers at a bad angle. Or QR levers used as nuts, instead of locking arms. Little or no
grease in the bearings. Poor design, welding and QC, leading to broken forks.

All too common on the low end dept store bikes. Could all this be fixed? Sure. But should a buyer
expect to tear down and rebuild a brand new bike completely to get it in a rideable state?

Buying a bike does not have to be a multi-thousand dollar experience. But neither is it an $80
experience.

In 1981, I bought a $600 Fuji. Many tens of thousands of miles later, it's still going strong. How
many $100 Huffy's would I have gone through in that same mileage? How many more hours of maintenance
would I have done trying to get and keep all those bikes in a usable state?

Would you consider a Yugo to be a valid car purchase?

Pete (cue Ron Hardin, Huffy maven)